Too white to study medicine

Do all people anywhere have equal opportunity from birth?

There are plenty of countries wherein the inequalities that exist are much less severe, and not clearly, obviously a product of intentionally discriminatory, oppressive policies pursued over generations. An explicit policy response to such hardly seems unjustified, or any kind of overreaction.

Granted South Africa has a fucked up history, but the majority has been in control for over 15 years. What are they doing to improve their country? Equal education for all should be top of the list.

And yet here you are, shitting all over the reasonable, justified efforts that they are undertaking to advance equality of opportunity in education.

It's striking how your arguments here don't square with your position.
 
Again you have boiled this girl down to a statistic but yet you have shown no evidence that this particular girl benefited from any discrimination against others.

I don't need to establish that - it's glaringly obvious to anyone who understands the very basics of the relevant history.

Anyone who is suggesting otherwise is being obtuse to the point of disingenuity/irrelevance.

Which is the problem with your solution.

It's South Africa's solution. This is the set of policies that a democratic polity has come up with to address the problems that it recognizes and wants to address. The fact that nobody bothered to convince some racist on the other side of the world that it was justified is just that. You have, again, undermined your own standing to judge them by your displays of willful ignorance of their situation and disrespect for their standing to decide such issues for themselves.

People aren't the same as a statistic and so your solution doesn't account for the fact that not all Whites were part of the problem, yet you want to treat them like they were.

All whites in South Africa were implicated in the problem, and remain implicated in its ongoing effects, and are thereby obligated to contribute to the ongoing solution. This being an obvious, definitional feature of any system of government racial oppression.
 
interesting angle, quad
perhaps sfog?

Not sure I want to pursue this tangent to that extent at this point, but I would suggest that many of the persistent drivers of pointless conflicts here have to do with people failing to respect the boundaries of their standing to judge whatever issue.
 
I don't need to establish that - it's glaringly obvious to anyone who understands the very basics of the relevant history.

Anyone who is suggesting otherwise is being obtuse to the point of disingenuity/irrelevance.

No, it is not glaring obvious.
Indeed, at her age she had nothing to do with any descrimination.
But you want to pay for it based soley on her skin color.

It's South Africa's solution. This is the set of policies that a democratic polity has come up with to address the problems that it recognizes and wants to address. The fact that nobody bothered to convince some racist on the other side of the world that it was justified is just that. You have, again, undermined your own standing to judge them by your displays of willful ignorance of their situation and disrespect for their standing to decide such issues for themselves.

Based on that rational we shouldn't discuss any issue decided by any democratically elected body. So again, tell Gustav and SAM to STFU about Israel, after all, their democratic polity has a set of policies to address the problems that it recognizes and wants to address just as much as SA does.

All whites in South Africa were implicated in the problem,

Really?
You think that no Whites were part of the solution at all?

Although the majority of whites supported apartheid, some 20 percent did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_under_apartheid#Internal_resistance
 
No, of course she didn't.
She's only 18 years old.

So what? You're telling me that someone who was born to white parents under Apartheid isn't the direct, obvious beneficiary of systematic racism? Didn't grow up in a wealthier household, with more stability and opportunities, with better schools and nutrition, etc. because of Apartheid? You think the reason that white South African medical school applicants exhibit the disparate statistics relative to black applicants because of... what?

Because if it's not the product of the massive, systematic racial oppression that is such an obvious feature of South African history, then I'm not seeing where you can offer any explanation that wouldn't be clearly racist.

Yes, and now you are having her pay for what the previous generation did.

Which is more fair than having black South Africans pay for what the previous generations of white South Africans did to them, no?

One would have to be outright racist to prefer the latter solution, wouldn't they?

The fact is you should work to provide fairness to all going forward.

Indeed. So why are you shitting all over such efforts, and slamming them as unjust?

You pay only lip service to "fairness." The only concrete thing you are advocating here, is that white people shouldn't pay any price to help achieve social justice and equality of opportunity in South Africa. And since the alternatives to that are to have non-white pay for such, or to fail to achieve social justice outright, we're left with the clear, unavoidable conclusion that you are a white supremacist.

What makes no sense is to institutionalize unfairness to people based on the color of their skin and for things which were done before they were born.

Well, then, since the system under consideration is not unfair, you should have no objection. It is perfectly, clearly fair to give systematically repressed groups a boost in the various institutions of social advancement, until such a time as equality of opportunity is largely achieved.
 
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No, it is not glaring obvious.

If it isn't obvious to you, then you're clearly too ignorant and/or disingenuous for your opinion on such to merit consideration.

Indeed, at her age she had nothing to do with any descrimination.

We were talking about whether she benefitted from Apartheid, not whether she was responsible for it.

But you want to pay for it based soley on her skin color.

Since the alternative is to have black people pay for it, that seems about as fair as practicable.

If racists don't want their children to have to pitch in to clean up the messes they make, then they should just refrain from making messes in the first place. So it's important that we do not let their descendents off the hook for such, lest we incentivize racial oppression.

Based on that rational we shouldn't discuss any issue decided by any democratically elected body.

"Discuss" is one thing. Pretend to have standing to judge is another. There is nothing unreasonable about suggesting that those who have no stake in an issue, also lack standing to judge it. Especially when the issue in question is the outcome of a democratic process representing those who do have a direct stake.

So again, tell Gustav and SAM to STFU about Israel, after all, their democratic polity has a set of policies to address the problems that it recognizes and wants to address just as much as SA does.

In the first place, I routinely question S.A.M.'s standing to advance the judgements that she does.

In the second place, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is most obviously not an example of a democratic polity dealing with internal issues. It's an international conflict. Indeed, S.A.M. is a clear advocate for a one-state solution, exactly (from what I can tell) because such a scenario, if democratic, would give the Palestinians a drastically increased voice in issues directly affecting their daily lives and national destiny.

Really?
You think that no Whites were part of the solution at all?

You think I said that somewhere?

What I said was that all white are implicated in the problem. And they are. That doesn't mean that none of them were/are/can be part of the solution. In fact, it increases their obligation to do such. Which is exactly why affirmative action is politically tractable in South Africa.

Meanwhile, how about you eschew the troll tactics and just discuss like a respectable adult with a working brain. You don't fool anyone - by this late date, we all regard your predictable lapses into evasion and trolling as the pigheaded refusals to admit defeat that they so clearly are.

Thanks for playing.
 
So what? You're telling me that someone who was born to white parents under Apartheid isn't the direct, obvious beneficiary of systematic racism? Didn't grow up in a wealthier household, with more stability and opportunities, with better schools and nutrition, etc. because of Apartheid? You think the reason that white South African medical school applicants exhibit the disparate statistics relative to black applicants because of... what?

Guess you missed that point about 20% of Whites being against Apartheid.
And no, we know nothing of her background, so we don't know that she benefited at all from systematic racism.

Which is more fair than having black South Africans pay for what the previous generations of white South Africans did to them, no?

So you are back to two wrongs to make a right argument.
That one fails as you haven't shown she did anything wrong or even benefited from wrongs that were done by her parents.

You pay only lip service to "fairness." The only concrete thing you are advocating here, is that white people shouldn't pay any price to help achieve social justice and equality of opportunity in South Africa.

Not at all.
But the people who should pay are the ones who were behind it.
You are using their skin color for a proxy for that and as we have seen, 20% were against Apartheid.

Well, then, since the system under consideration is not unfair, you should have no objection. It is perfectly, clearly fair to give systematically repressed groups a boost in the various institutions of social advancement, until such a time as equality of opportunity is largely achieved.

No it's not fair. As explained you are the one in favor of penalizing her soley based on the color of her skin.

YOU are the one who is being racist.
 
I very much enjoy the irony of those complaining that the only way to solve injustice is to leave its victims to suffer even longer because it would be unfair to the beneficiaries.

Are the current medical school applicants victims? Probably not, if they are qualified enough to be competitive as applicants.
 
Guess you missed that point about 20% of Whites being against Apartheid.

I'm well aware of it - and it is not relevant to anything at issue here. Being "against Apartheid" isn't the same thing as not benefitting from, or being implicated in it.

And no, we know nothing of her background, so we don't know that she benefited at all from systematic racism.

We know that she's a white person born under Apartheid. That is sufficient, given the nature of the Apartheid regime and its effect.

So you are back to two wrongs to make a right argument.

No. There is only one wrong at issue. The rest of it is the question of what costs South Africa is going to pay to fix that wrong.

But the people who should pay are the ones who were behind it.

They're mostly dead, and entirely past the age where the major institutions of social advancement have any bearing on them, individually.

So your demands there seem to add up to an insistence that social justice in South Africa not be achieved. This is expected - you've argued the same thing elsewhere many times - and remains overtly white supremacist.

YOU are the one who is being racist.

Racism is the belief that one race of people is inherently inferior to another. That, for example, was characteristic of Apartheid. Affirmative action programs undertaken to counteract the effects of such policies do not operate on such a premise - rather the opposite - and so are not racist.
 
Of course they are.

If you'd ever spent 10 minutes in South Africa you wouldn't advance such obtuse considerations.

How do we know it applied to all of them? There are wealthy minorities who live pampered lifestyles of privilege in all countries. I bet you anything that the majority of black med school graduates in the USA had a comparable upbringing to white med school graduates. They come from professional families in posh homes located in expensive white collar areas. I'm sure that the same holds true for some blacks in South Africa.

By assuming that the black med school applicants of South Africa all suffered from racial victimization, we are generalizing and that usually isn't an admirable thing to do. Even if just a few of those applicants are benefiting from admission policies designed to reverse racial oppression when they weren't actually hurt by it, then the policy is flawed and unfair. The integrity of the admission process becomes questionable at that point.

It also has the effect of making it appear as though minority races can't compete on their own, which isn't a positive image.
 
How do we know it applied to all of them?

Because it was a system of racial oppression that worked in exactly those terms. Obviously. The exact severity of the impact on any particular member of the victim class varies, but the premise that they didn't all suffer systemic harm from it is preposterous - tells us only that you're either ignorant or disingenous.

There are wealthy minorities who live pampered lifestyles of privilege in all countries. I bet you anything that the majority of black med school graduates in the USA had a comparable upbringing to white med school graduates. They come from professional families in posh homes located in expensive white collar areas. I'm sure that the same holds true for some blacks in South Africa.

In the first place you are making a serious mistake by projecting your perspective on US society on South Africa. Apartheid was qualitatively worse than Jim Crow, and persisted until a lot more recently. The level of racial inequality that persists in South Africa is severe - you've never seen anything like it in the USA. We're talking shanty towns with open-ditch latrines, no running water, and no electricity, right next to modern resort towns. It's staggering, and points up what a fundamental error it is for your (and adoucette, etc.) to project your agenda for American race relations uncritically onto South Africa. If you aren't going to understand the relevant situation in an honest way, then at least spare us the cheap attempts to pretend you don't need to do so.

In the second place, it is always the case everywhere that the applicant pools for post-graduate education are going to be disproportionately from the more successful demographics. Nevertheless, the racial disparity remains obvious in the applicant pool - there being fewer rich black South Africans than white, and them being less rich than the whites - so one can scarsely argue that there isn't a visible disparate impact to be addressed there. Likewise, addressing the impact at that particular level is very important to addressing it more generally, even if the individuals being given a boost aren't the worst-suffering ones. You train more black doctors, and you end up with more wealthy, stable black families, better medical service in the black communities, etc. It has a huge carry-on effect, which is one reason that these programs are used.

That said, I'm open to the suggestion that the post-graduate level is not the most important place to address the problems. Addressing basic literacy, primary education, high school, medical services, job opportunities, etc. are all also very important. But in the first place we don't have to choose one or the other - all aspects can be addressed simultaneously, and post-graduate stuff is important. And in the second place, fixing things like primary education is very expensive. You have to come up with a bunch of extra tax revenue to pay for it. Affirmative action is cheap - you don't pay any extra out of pocket, you just rearrange who gets admitted to which school. So, it ends up politically more tractable, since you don't have to ask anyone to pay more taxes, and moreover most of the electorate won't be personally affected anyway.

An interesting point: a broad-based tax hike to improve primary education and services amongst disadvantaged groups would seem to be exactly what you and adoucette are calling for. It doesn't discriminate against any particular individual, the benefits are broadly distributed, there are no hand-outs to people already successful enough to pursue med school, etc. And yet, there seems to be no support for such. Rather the opposite - people would rather move away to avoid having to pay into the school systems to serve minorities, etc. So this looks like so much craven pretense. If I seriously thought that you guys were arguing for having everyone pay, and using the money to fix up schools and social services for oppressed groups, then I could take these supposedly-principled objections to affirmative action seriously. But I don't see any of that. All I see is a rush to find any excuse to both oppose addressing inequality and also construct a pretense to avoid admitting to racism.

By assuming that the black med school applicants of South Africa all suffered from racial victimization, we are generalizing and that usually isn't an admirable thing to do.

By pretending otherwise - in the face of already-visible data establishing exactly such - you are arguing from willful ignorance, which is an outright dishonest, disrespectful thing to do.

Even if just a few of those applicants are benefiting from admission policies designed to reverse racial oppression when they weren't actually hurt by it, then the policy is flawed and unfair. The integrity of the admission process becomes questionable at that point.

A few perverse exceptions to the rule are just that. You're seriously going to argue, with a straight face, that the mere possibility of some hypothetical student who didn't suffer too much from Apartheid might get an unearned break, means that reasonable, effective measures to address a huge problem with inequality are unjust?

Again, it's just transparently racist: millions of systematically oppressed blacks are held to be less important than a single wealthy white person not getting into their first choice of medical schools. To even advance such a premise with a straight face requires one to be so steeped in white supremacism as to call any pretense of principled concern into serious question.

It also has the effect of making it appear as though minority races can't compete on their own, which isn't a positive image.

Getting rid of affirmative action would skew the med school student bodies drastically towards white people, thereby providing equal grounds to claim that blacks can't compete on their own, at least to those audiences who are so glaringly racist and/or ignorant as to ignore the obviously relevant history. Which audiences we shouldn't be catering to regardless, but it remains that no difference would be made there. Whether racists claim that blacks are inferior because they couldn't get into med school, or because they needed help to get into med school, doesn't matter. Reasonable people are not going to look past the obvious history to construct justifications for racial supremacism either way, and those are the only people worth catering to.

Also, black people in South Africa are not a "minority race." That would be the white South Africans, who apparently needed to maintain a vicious system of racial oppression to prevent the other races from competing fairly with them. Not a very positive image, is it? Or doesn't your racist "reasoning" apply to white people?
 
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Likewise, addressing the impact at that particular level is very important to addressing it more generally, even if the individuals being given a boost aren't the worst-suffering ones. You train more black doctors, and you end up with more wealthy, stable black families, better medical service in the black communities, etc. It has a huge carry-on effect, which is one reason that these programs are used.
Has that effect been documented? It sounds more theorized. Black med school graduates typically don't elect to work in shitty black communities, I don't think. As well, it doesn't seem okay to impact people's dreams because you're trying to bring about a broader change that may or may not even be very impactful.
A few perverse exceptions to the rule are just that. You're seriously going to argue, with a straight face, that the mere possibility of some hypothetical student who didn't suffer too much from Apartheid might get an unearned break, means that reasonable, effective measures to address a huge problem with inequality are unjust?

Again, it's just transparently racist: millions of systematically oppressed blacks are held to be less important than a single wealthy white person not getting into their first choice of medical schools.
To that single white person, that could mean the world. They might have dreamed from a young age to go to that one medical school. Something could happen that they won't get in at all. They proved their worth and it is unjust to deny them access in order to cater to lesser qualified applicants based on the luck of their birth.
 
She never would have known about it if she didn't make a mistake on the application. What's wrong with affirmative action? I'm all for it. Whites in South Africa have had a clear advantage for decades.
 
Some more thoughts: can race be fairly categorized for the purposes of affirmative action?

It is not true that all members belonging to a racial group are equally oppressed. At least in the USA, black professionals are treated differently than black crack dealers. Your Indian convenience store manager isn't afforded the same respect as the Indian engineer. The chinese restaurant dishwasher is peed on while the chinese med school graduate is idolized. The children belonging to these groups are treated differently, based on their environment. This is one of the major reasons that many of us treat affirmative action with suspicion. Too many people are helped who don't need it and didn't earn it. And it isn't unreasonable to think that it does happen a lot.
 
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tough shit

She never would have known about it if she didn't make a mistake on the application. What's wrong with affirmative action? I'm all for it. Whites in South Africa have had a clear advantage for decades.

Question: what do you do for a living?
 
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