timojin speculates we have not left the solar system / NASA is a lie
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timojin, certainly you know better than to post conspiracy theory bullshit in the science forums...
You guys are dirty. Started a post that I did not initiated but put my name as if I have initiated . That is the Australian Maffia at works, Kittamaru and peddoboy.
Kittamaru, could you please explain why you construed timojin's statement : "I believe cosmology fund should be reduced, we had enough of pictures and expensive dishes , we are not able to get out of our solar system", as "conspiracy theory b*llsh*t?
Possibly you could Cite your supporting evidence of any Human Being?/Person?/Astronaut? that has gotten "out of our solar system"...
In addition, after reading through all of the Posts in this Thread, I cannot find any instance of timojin even mentioning NASA...let alone Posting that "NASA is a lie"...
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Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
That which is daily posted by timojin.
More unfounded nonsense and accusations?We do not have a Mafia in Australia and Kittamaru is not Australian as far as I am aware.
Also the original thread was not in inferring Astronomy/cosmology, but science funding in general.
You were asked by another, why you come to a science forum, if you so dislike it.
Then you act all indignant when I call you a hypocrite?
I split your posts off from the main thread, since your claims are conspiracy theory nonsense... I did not "put your name" on anything. You did.
We have left the solar system... Voyager 1 left several years ago.
Simple - http://www.space.com/17688-voyager-1.html
Voyager 1 HAS left the solar system. Unless, of course, you posit that NASA is lying.
No humans were on it. We have not left the solar system.
While the Voyagers were not manned in essence, it can still be construed that we have left the solar system.[afterall even now we still are receiving data from both] timijon has often expressed the view that space exploration, etc is of no benefit, and has often remarked sarcastically and derisively of any astronomy.
His usual agenda is amply illustrated by his jumping on the astronomy/cosmology bandwagon, when the thread was not concerned with that discipline in particular, but science in general.
His other arguments over the months from seemingly simple questions re clouds, rain, etc, and then refusing answers, also in my opinion anyway, point to an agenda.
I've done the message-in-a-bottle thing. If one of those washed up on the shores of Antarctica, would you say that I have been there?
I agree. But having a disagreement with him over his agenda is not justification for lying.
Timojin has repeatedly made it clear that he sees no benefit in NASA and its exploration of space. If he wishes to profess innocence that specifically humans have not left the solar system, I do not feel that many will believe him. Additionally, he acted (quite intentionally from appearances) to derail the previous thread in preference to his own agenda; he has had warnings before about posting "bad science" in the science sections... both verbal, and infractions... obviously, they have not stuck.
Sorry, Kittamaru, but as billvon stated ^above^ : "No humans were on it. We have not left the solar system."
Kittamaru, neither myself, nor timojin, "posit that NASA is lying".
So, Kittamaru, I must ask again : Possibly you could Cite your supporting evidence of any Human Being?/Person?/Astronaut? that has gotten "out of our solar system"...
In addition, Possibly you could Cite supporting evidence from the Posts in this Thread, any instance of timojin even mentioning NASA...let alone Posting that "NASA is a lie"...
Earlier in this thread, timojon accused me of preaching.
Posting science and science articles on a forum is preaching?
His record speaks for itself...he has admonished me, NASA and science academia many times when I dare take the liberty to post threads about DM and DE in particular.
Near all his replies in this thread [bar one] are directed at me, presumably again for daring to post science.
As I said previously, the many threads he starts that ask questions when he has absolutely no intention of accepting an answer, illustrates his agenda.
Earlier in this thread, timojon accused me of preaching.
Posting science and science articles on a forum is preaching?
His record speaks for itself...he has admonished me, NASA and science academia many times when I dare take the liberty to post threads about DM and DE in particular.
Near all his replies in this thread [bar one] are directed at me, presumably again for daring to post science.
As I said previously, the many threads he starts that ask questions when he has absolutely no intention of accepting an answer, illustrates his agenda.
This is the second reply that has stated (basically) "it's OK to lie because Timojin is bad." Forgiving dishonesty because of enmity towards a poster should have no place on a science forum.
What happens the next time someone posts a misleading/untruthful subject line? He'll be told to cut it out, and will reply "but the moderators do it." And he will have a good point.
Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
Have we left the solar system? That very much depends upon what you mean by "we" and "left" and "solar system".
I have, more than once said, we have gone to the moon. It is understood when I say that, that I have not personally been to the moon. But someone, some handful of humans have been there.
I have also said, we have gone to Mars. I have never been questioned on this point in the past. My audience has always understood me to mean that humans have sent robotic craft to the planet. If I have been speaking to children, or adults ignorant of space exploration I have amended my words to "we have sent spacecraft to Mars" and on occasion, just to be on the safe side, "we have sent unmanned spacecraft to Mars".
It is my experience that such usage, both literal and metaphorical is understood and accepted by educated English speakers. In this instance DMOE gives the appearance of using pedantry to justify deliberate misunderstanding. He is far from being the dumbest man on Earth and is likely well aware of these accepted usages.
Where does the solar system end. Personally, I think it ends in a vague, ill defined region far out at the edge of the Oort cloud. That's assuming it actually has an edge and doesn't just merge imperceptibly into our neighbours' Oort clouds. So in that sense Voyager is still very much within the solar system. But it has passed the Heliopause and that is certainly an important boundary that can readily be considered the edge of the solar system in one sense.
Conclusion: whether or not we have left the solar system depends on the context in which we say it. It would be nice if everyone could agree on that point for once. I would view it as a nice birthday present.
I have, more than once said, we have gone to the moon. It is understood when I say that, that I have not personally been to the moon. But someone, some handful of humans have been there.
I have also said, we have gone to Mars. I have never been questioned on this point in the past. My audience has always understood me to mean that humans have sent robotic craft to the planet. If I have been speaking to children, or adults ignorant of space exploration I have amended my words to "we have sent spacecraft to Mars" and on occasion, just to be on the safe side, "we have sent unmanned spacecraft to Mars".
It is my experience that such usage, both literal and metaphorical is understood and accepted by educated English speakers. In this instance DMOE gives the appearance of using pedantry to justify deliberate misunderstanding. He is far from being the dumbest man on Earth and is likely well aware of these accepted usages.
Where does the solar system end. Personally, I think it ends in a vague, ill defined region far out at the edge of the Oort cloud. That's assuming it actually has an edge and doesn't just merge imperceptibly into our neighbours' Oort clouds. So in that sense Voyager is still very much within the solar system. But it has passed the Heliopause and that is certainly an important boundary that can readily be considered the edge of the solar system in one sense.
Conclusion: whether or not we have left the solar system depends on the context in which we say it. It would be nice if everyone could agree on that point for once. I would view it as a nice birthday present.
There was no lie, simple as that.......
You say it so well....
And of course couple with your excellent summary, would be the genuine nature of those questioning any meaning/subject or science discipline.
"ask questions when he has absolutely no intention of accepting an answer, illustrates his agenda".
"NASA is a lie" - that is in itself a lie; he never said that nor implied that.
It would seem that the relevent part of that statement is : "...educated English speakers".
From timojin's first Post on Sciforums. it has been clear - to me at least - that English is probably neither his first, nor the language that he is the most adept/conversant in.
Ophiolite, first, no need to capitalize, dmoe is fine.
Second, I was not "using pedantry to justify deliberate misunderstanding".
I honestly believe that timojin was actually referring to actual human beings having the ability to leave the Solar System when he stated : " we are not able to get out of our solar system".
There does seem, however, to have been some intentional use of "deliberate misunderstanding" in this Thread, re Post #16.
As an aside, Ophiolite, as I have Posted before : the "dumbest" in dmoe is in relation to being born with great hearing, but an inability to vocalize.
And to add, I mostly concur on you thoughts concerning the Solar System/Heliopause/Oort Clouds.
We, as a species/civilization have never left the Solar System, Period! Only a comparative few have even left Earth, Period!
billvon has an excellent grasp of, and example of such in his Posts #28 and #30.
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Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
I agree, but might it not have been more productive for you to point out his misunderstanding of the usage employed by Kittmaru, rather than - apparently - arguing that Kittmaru was wrong?
I just want to note that the truncated quote creates a misleading impression of my viewpoint. In full I said "In this instance DMOE gives the appearance of using pedantry to justify deliberate misunderstanding."
The distinction is an important one, at least to me. As quoted by you I am accusing you of using pedantry etc. As I wrote it I am making you aware that your actions suggest you may be using pedantry etc. I think you will agree these are important differences.
Now, Timojin, do you understand the variety of things that may be meant by "mankind leaving the solar system"?
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