The universal cycloid motion through time.

[river]

You do not have to "time", measure empty space, it is already exist in "time" the first dimension. Without time, even empty space would not exist.
There is no such thing as empty space btw. even before the Big Beginning, there was timespace, energytime.

About movement, at the cusp, contact point of the cycloid, there is no movement. zero velocity contact with the road, even with the moment of time, the first of all the roads.

Highlighted

Only in mathematics does time become The dimension . In the physical Universe time is irrelevant . Time can eliminated and still movement of physical things continue .

 

[Write4U]

Highlighted

Only in mathematics does time become The dimension . In the physical Universe time is irrelevant . Time can eliminated and still movement of physical things continue .

I agree, the universe does not take note of duration.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
Highlighted

Only in mathematics does time become The dimension . In the physical Universe time is irrelevant . Time can be eliminated and still movement of physical things continue .

I agree, the universe does not take note of duration.

Exactly .

Thankyou , after all this discussions we have had , you understand .

 

[Write4U]

Exactly .

Thankyou , after all this discussions we have had , you understand .

I never did not understand. Perhaps we were not communicating on the same wavelength.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
Exactly .

Thankyou , after all this discussions we have had , you understand .

I never did not understand. Perhaps we were not communicating on the same wavelength.

We weren't on the same pdg. You are mathematical , I'm physical . And the mathematical exists because of the physical . Tell me I'm wrong .

 

[river]

You haven't told me I'm wrong in my post#45 , Write4U .

 

[nebel]

I agree, the universe does not take note of duration.

have you 2 visited the sequoias in California, yews in Wales,? these trees counted the years, and you can count the years, touch a point in a piece of wood that was grown, deposited in a yearly ring during "Moses" time. The universe is counting on time to be there when it needed it. always.

In the physical Universe time is irrelevant

to use the cycloid/wheel metaphor of this thread's theme: Time is as relevant to the universe as the roads to our vehicles / wheels. without
the cycloid motion touching, gripping the road/ time firmly at zero velocity contact, there would not be meaningful existence as we know it.

 

[Write4U]

have you 2 visited the sequoias in California, yews in Wales,? these trees counted the years, and you can count the years, touch a point in a piece of wood that was grown, deposited in a yearly ring during "Moses" time. The universe is counting on time to be there when it needed it. always.

You are anthropomorphizing. The universe does not think about anything
Rain doesn't "know" when it is wet or when it is ice.

to use the cycloid/wheel metaphor of this thread's theme: Time is as relevant to the universe as the roads to our vehicles / wheels. without the cycloid motion touching, gripping the road/ time firmly at zero velocity contact, there would not be meaningful existence as we know it.

A better metaphor is when man built the transcontinental railroad, laying down the rails for the locomotive to move forward 40 ft at a time.

The universe only needs "mathematical permission" to unfold by a quantum chronology.

You need to forget about what it all means to humans. The universe doesn't care about anything. It has no sentience. Humans have absolutely no impact on universal dynamics. We are a glitch in the vastness of spacetime.

 

[nebel]

A better metaphor is when man built the transcontinental railroad, laying down the rails for the locomotive to move forward 40 ft at a time.

that is brilliant, the power of analogies when thought through.

a) the locomotive, the cycloid motion of their wheels, illustrating the zero duration contact on the rails. as the here proposed movement through time.
b) The rails represent the spacetime we live in that has been laid down since the BB, existing in conjunction with the base, timespace, without beginning or end.
c) the pristine terrain, water to be bridged, picturing the ancien timespace, energytime, the first rough dimension containing only energy, that existed before we arrived. nearly eternally.

 

[nebel]

You are anthropomorphizing. The universe does not think about anything

I tried to use examples of highly time/ timing dependant processes often repetitive that were critical for the universes, perhaps life's existence, that preceded, were unaffected by our presence.
with out time, or the ability to exist in time , to have duration, nothing would exist, even the primordial energy, that is no thing, but has to have time to exist in. To exist, you do not even need to move through time.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

I tried to use examples of highly time/ timing dependant processes often repetitive that were critical for the universes, perhaps life's existence, that preceded, were unaffected by our presence.
with out time, or the ability to exist in time , to have duration, nothing would exist, even the primordial energy, that is no thing, but has to have time to exist in. To exist, you do not even need to move through time.

time is a relativistic human observational principal of measurement via spacial orientation
it is a physical concept of measurement of human design

how many million years have humans been around ?
did time exist for humans before humans existed ?(no)

so you cant pull time away from human perception because time is an aspect of perceptional measure.

we are "in time" but not "of time"

 

[Write4U]

To exist, you do not even need to move through time.

Right, we only move through space. The length of duration (time) of this movement depends on several variables.

so you cant pull time away from human perception because time is an aspect of perceptional measure.

I agree.

we are "in time" but not "of time"

Even then I would put it as; "We are in space at a relative time"
I see time as a variable emergent quantity of duration. It is an "operational definition"

Operational definition
Science[edit]

The special theory of relativity can be viewed as the introduction of operational definitions for simultaneity of events and of distance, that is, as providing the operations needed to define these terms.[9]

In
quantum mechanics the notion of operational definitions is closely related to the idea of observables, that is, definitions based upon what can be measured.[10][11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_definition#Science

Relativity of simultaneity

In physics, the relativity of simultaneity is the concept that distant simultaneity – whether two spatially separated events occur at the same time – is not absolute, but depends on the observer'sreference frame

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity

Clearly this shows that time is a variable quantity and is only observable as an emergent property of "state of being".
Without space there can be no time. And the time of "now" depends on where you are in space.

 

[nebel]

Right, we only move through space

if you are at the right place, in a balanced center of gravitational fields, you can be "stationary" in space too. not moving through time might involve the unpleasantness of being in the singularity of a black hole. hole and not know it.
preferable to be in a rotating system, with the cusp of the cycloid always at zero velocity touching the time dimension.

 

[nebel]

Clearly this shows that time is a variable quantity

It is not time that is the variable quantity but the object's and the observer's movement through time.

 

[nebel]

time is a relativistic human observational principal of measurement via spacial orientation
it is a physical concept of measurement of human design

how many million years have humans been around ?
did time exist for humans before humans existed ?(no)

Yes, time existed, always did, as a kind of Urtime, not Uhr time ( time measured by a Clock of sorts) Uhrzeit.
How do you suppose uncreated energy existed, the universe existed without having had the time to exist in ?
the fact that we have been measuring time for a few thousand years did not open the possibilities for the universe to exist. retroactively, --
--the presence of energy contained in time did.
we humans have the unique experience to sense the momentarily zero length moment, and the lingering time delay in our nerves, similar to the movement of a wheel near the cusp, contact of its cycloid motion.

 

[Write4U]

It is not time that is the variable quantity but the object's and the observer's movement through time.

I am not sure about that.

If time does not exist apart from an object's or observer's movement through space, then any time that emerges from that movement or observation is variable along with the variability of the movement. Time is not a fixed dimension, because spatial dimensions are not fixed. The entire universe is in constant and variable flux.
Hence the emergent times of duration are in constant and variable flux, no?

 

[nebel]

If time does not exist apart from an object's or observer's movement through space

as pointed out, time exists whether an object is moving through space or not. Time existed before even our 3D space existed, because time harboured uncreated energy ' always

The entire universe is in constant and variable flux.
Hence the emergent times of duration are in constant and variable flux, no?

of course, the movement of the cycloid over/ lin the fixed time dimension is variable. Photons do not age at all, deep gravity wells get you stuck in time too.


.

 

[nebel]

Why cycloid? Why not something like a rolling wheel? And touching what? I get it that this is an analogy, but what is rotating in your analogy, and what is stationary, and how do you know it's a cycloid?

In the discussion of that, the phenomenal photon came up. It is a rotating wave, it does not age , seem to be in perpetual zero contact with the time dimension, yet travels forward through space at a certain rate, taking duration to get from a to b. very similar to the cycloid of a wheel, zero length, duration when in contact with the road surface (time), but advancing in other aspects.
photon the perfect cycloid.

 

[Write4U]

as pointed out, time exists whether an object is moving through space or not. Time existed before even our 3D space existed, because time harboured uncreated energy ' always

So, you believe in irreducible complexity?

 

[nebel]

So, you believe in irreducible complexity?

does that have relevance to the proposal at hand, that there is on some simple level a similarity to the movement through time and the zero contact of a rotating system with the medium it travels in/over?