The true Fallen Angel

[davewhite04]

Being that this thread is

1. posted in the Religion section, and
2. talking about angels, then

it goes without saying that God is assumed for the sake of the argument.

Cool, we got over that hurdle.

So, God exists, do we get our morals from it? Or could they still be subjective?

 

[DaveC426913]

So, God exists, do we get our morals from it? Or could they still be subjective?

Were God to exist as the creator of humans and the universe, I would say morals are definitely up to him. It is literally his ball, and he gets to set the rules.

But if he decides to keep the rules a secret, we have to come up with our own.
It's also possible he did not set rules at all. It is possible that we are a lab experiment - the point of which is to see what we come up with.

 

[davewhite04]

Were God to exist as the creator of humans and the universe, I would say morals are definitely up to him. It is literally his ball, and he gets to set the rules.

If we're talking about the God of the bible, then it's basically a moral code; if you're a Christian then that one moral code is love they enemy as thyself, and love God... doesn't sound like a bad idea. Very difficult to implement.

But if he decides to keep the rules a secret, we have to come up with our own.

Yep. Through social conditioning perhaps? This wouldn't be the God of the bible.

It's also possible he did not set rules at all. It is possible that we are a lab experiment - the point of which is to see what we come up with.

This reminds me of the alien dudes who think we were created by aliens messing about with monkey DNA. The aliens I can think of is the Sumerian gods, Enki(EA) messed about with DNA to create human beings to be slaves to the gods, by getting them to mine gold(initially). The Sumerian planet, Niburu, needs gold for its atmosphere, or did. These gods went quiet, like all the others did after Jesus. Along came Mohammad I guess, but he wasn't a god.

But if we're talking about the God of the bible, we aren't an experiment.

 

[DaveC426913]

But if we're talking about the God of the bible, we aren't an experiment.

Oh I dunno; the Bible seems to say otherwise.

1. It is well promulgated that God moves in mysterious ways. In other words, if humans were an experiment, we wouldn't know it. There is nothing in the Bible that refutes the idea that God has his own plan and is keeping it from people.
2. The experiment is, of course, to see if - once gifted with Free Will - his creations will choose to live righteously, and worship him.
3. And the peeps have polluted the experiment - not once, but at least three times.
   1. The first time the experimental setup was simple. Limited sample size (n=2), small culture medium. One condition: Don't sample from the Tree of Knowledge. They didn't listen. He threw them out. (4004BCE)
   2. The second time was a much more ambitious experiment (n > 100,000). I think they started worshipping a Golden Calf (or am I mixing my parables?) He got furious And we wiped all of the wicked from the face of the Earth, except Noah and his crew.(2105BCE)
   3. Finally, God got fed up and gave humans some new ground rules to help them in the right direction: the Ten Commandments. (1313BCE)
4. And now he appears to have gone radio silent for a couple of millennia to see how the experiment plays out.

I would say it is pretty plain that God of the Bible is experimenting in the petrie dish called Earth with humans, giving them Free Will to see if they will willingly worship him (as opposed to automatons, who have no choice), and running the experiment for a few aeons with only the occasional tweaking of the conditions when it appears to be in danger of going off the rails.

 

[davewhite04]

Oh I dunno; the Bible seems to say otherwise.

1. It is well promulgated that God moves in mysterious ways. In other words, if humans were an experiment, we wouldn't know it. There is nothing in the Bible that refutes the idea that God has his own plan and is keeping it from people.
2. The experiment is, of course, to see if - once gifted with Free Will - his creations will choose to live righteously, and worship him.
3. And the peeps have failed the experiment - not once, but at least three times.
   1. The first time the experimental setup was simple. Limited sample size (n=2), small culture medium. One condition: Don't sample from the Tree of Knowledge. They didn't listen. He threw them out. (4004BCE)
   2. The second time was a much more ambitious experiment (n > 100,000). I think they started worshipping a Golden Calf (or am I mixing my parables? He got furious And we wiped all of the wicked from the face of the Earth, except Noah and his crew.(2105BCE)
   3. Finally, God got fed up and gave humans some new ground rules to help them in the right direction: the Ten Commandments. (1313BCE)
4. And now he appears to have gone radio silent for a couple of millennia to see how the experiment plays out.

I would say it is pretty plain that God of the Bible is experimenting in the petrie dish called Earth with humans, giving them Free Will to see if they will willingly worship him (as opposed to automatons, who have no choice), and running the experiment for a few aeons with only the occasional tweaking of the conditions when it appears to be in danger of going off the rails.

Very well written.

It's possible. Unless you think God has got a plan for your life, like Christians believe. You see no plan.

I don't see one either!

 

[DaveC426913]

Very well written.

It's possible. Unless you think God has got a plan for your life, like Christians believe.

We were discussing what the Bible, and its depiction of God, seems to indicate.

What you or I believe about God's objective existence and any consequences thereof is a completely different topic.

(Likewise, we can discuss the nature Gandalf's the Grey's fireworks without having to take a stand on whether Gandalf is a real dude.)

You see no plan.

I don't see one either!

Logically, you wouldn't and shouldn't see the plan.

The experiment is to see if humans live righteously and choose to worship God.

If you knew that, it would spoil the integrity of the test. It would no longer be a single-blind experiment.

Ergo, not seeing the plan cannot be taken as evidence that it's not there.

(Shades of conspiracy theory logic, eh? "The fact that we see no UFOs is proof that government is covering them up!")

 

[Pinball1970]

Subjective too.

If God exists then we would have a moral absolute, which means morals would be objective... perhaps.

Agree.
If we are talking the Biblical god he gave rules. Some of them make no sense, some are about his ego and some are morally bankrupt.
Don't lie, steal, murder and be nice to your parents would have been part of our social and biological evolution.
Exodus 21 and Leviticus give rules on keeping and beating slaves.
My morals are more sophisticated, developed and civilized than scripture.

 

[foghorn]

The experiment is, of course, to see if - once gifted with Free Will - his creations will choose to live righteously, and worship him.

I don’t mean to sidetrack here, but would a god setting experiments mean a non-omniscient god?
Would this limited god be open to later influence of what is rigth or wrong, from the logic of its own 'followers' ?

 

[davewhite04]

We were discussing what the Bible, and its depiction of God, seems to indicate.

What you or I believe about God's objective existence and any consequences thereof is a completely different topic.

Agreed.

(Likewise, we can discuss the nature Gandalf's the Grey's fireworks without having to take a stand on whether Gandalf is a real dude.)

Exactly!

Logically, you wouldn't and shouldn't see the plan.

Absolutely.

The experiment is to see if humans live righteously and choose to worship God.

Interesting theory... it's basically what God wanted from the beginning, obedience to the laws.

If you knew that, it would spoil the integrity of the test. It would no longer be a single-blind experiment.

Ergo, not seeing the plan cannot be taken as evidence that it's not there.

(Shades of conspiracy theory logic, eh? "The fact that we see no UFOs is proof that government is covering them up!")

Your proposal makes sense Dave(even rings true with what Jesus said!). There does seem to be an element of truth there.

Do you believe in free will? Or are you just entertaining ideas to progress a debate?

 

[davewhite04]

Agree.
If we are talking the Biblical god he gave rules. Some of them make no sense, some are about his ego and some are morally bankrupt.
Don't lie, steal, murder and be nice to your parents would have been part of our social and biological evolution.
Exodus 21 and Leviticus give rules on keeping and beating slaves.
My morals are more sophisticated, developed and civilized than scripture.

Pinball1970, if we look at this from a Christian point of view, then there are just two commandments to follow:

Mark 12:30-31 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.

Jesus changed the landscape.

 

[Pinball1970]

Pinball1970, if we look at this from a Christian point of view, then there are just two commandments to follow:

Mark 12:30-31 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.

Jesus changed the landscape.

Jesus also said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17).

So"the law" was Mosaic law and the 613 commandments.

 

[davewhite04]

Jesus also said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17).

So"the law" was Mosaic law and the 613 commandments.

He did fulfil them, and a New Covenant was born.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don’t mean to sidetrack here, but would a god setting experiments mean a non-omniscient god?

Giving humans Free Will would have to be accompanied by an willingness to switch off the ability to scrye the future.

Would this limited god be open to later influence of what is right or wrong, from the logic of its own 'followers' ?

That's an intriguing idea.

God is lonely, and wonders, if he created an "other", what it might teach him.

 

[DaveC426913]

Do you believe in free will? Or are you just entertaining ideas to progress a debate?

Those are two unrelated questions.

The Bible believes in Free Will. It is the Bible's supposition of Free Will that I am discussing.

There is an internal logic to God's movements, if one is imaginative enough. It doesn't have to be true to be logical.

 

[Baldeee]

Giving humans Free Will would have to be accompanied by an willingness to switch off the ability to scrye the future.

I'm not sure that this is sufficient, is it?
Not looking at a predetermined result (i.e. switching off ability to scry) does not mean the result is not still predetermined, does it?
Free Will would require the underlying system itself to not be predetermined, surely?

Unless one goes down the path of "Free Will" being about perception of reality rather than reality itself - i.e. the compatibilist-type view.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm not sure that this is sufficient, is it?
Not looking at a predetermined result (i.e. switching off ability to scry) does not mean the result is not still predetermined, does it?

Who said the result has to be predetermined?

Free Will would require the underlying system itself to not be predetermined, surely?

Sure.

Ok, you're suggesting that, if God is capable of perceiving the future, then it must follow that the future is objectively predetermined, such that it is there for him to view or not, as he chooses.

But that is premised on the assumption that the universe operates independently of God, and he merely passively observes it.


I would argue that - granting that this God made and can view the entire universe - predetermination is an emergent property of his omniscience. In other words, his omniscience is the cause, and predetermination is the effect. (After all, another name for God is "First Cause").

So, all he has to do is not look to the future and the future becomes no longer predetermined.

 

[kx000]

Being considerate of the problem of evil, while thinking within the realms of possibilities, can there be a messiah who can save us from evil? Does God HAVE to be omnipotent, or can He still wield ultimate power, as this standard for war and control, and is divinity within the realms of possibilities? Maybe nature is omnipotent while humans live as mortals who are feeble, and dangerous, including that angel of omnipotence who is lives as a man, with all of us? What would happen if some super genius used omnipotence to destroy nature? now just reverse that thought, that is how Omni can be.

Can God simply take damage against a maximally to save sorrowful women, knowing they are divine healer, saved for their hero who suffers in their place, thus keeping St. Michael’s Faith in the world. Would God create this world just to save it knowing there is no other way for the angel of non-violence to exist?

Can God create nature, without tarnishing the devil?

God might be impossible, but the Messiah is not, and He does favor God.

 

[DaveC426913]

I can't make sense of that. It sounds like you are having trouble keeping track of a single thought long enough to complete it.

 

[foghorn]

God might be impossible, but the Messiah is not, and He does favor God.

Is that saying… Jesus was just an ordinary man who said there maybe a god?

 

[Pinball1970]

Being considerate of the problem of evil, while thinking within the realms of possibilities, can there be a messiah who can save us from evil? Does God HAVE to be omnipotent, or can He still wield ultimate power, as this standard for war and control, and is divinity within the realms of possibilities? Maybe nature is omnipotent while humans live as mortals who are feeble, and dangerous, including that angel of omnipotence who is lives as a man, with all of us? What would happen if some super genius used omnipotence to destroy nature? now just reverse that thought, that is how Omni can be.

Can God simply take damage against a maximally to save sorrowful women, knowing they are divine healer, saved for their hero who suffers in their place, thus keeping St. Michael’s Faith in the world. Would God create this world just to save it knowing there is no other way for the angel of non-violence to exist?

Can God create nature, without tarnishing the devil?

God might be impossible, but the Messiah is not, and He does favor God.

Unless you live in Israel the term, Messiah is meaningless.

Messiah is a reference to the Israeli kings of old in the mold of David and actually means anointed one, the ancient Jewish kings put oils on the heads of the crowned kings.

“Christ” is simply Greek for Messiah.

Jesus probably thought he was the next king and let the cat out of the bag so the Romans executed him for treason, they already had a governor and king.

Messiahs do not get killed by the enemy the kill the enemy, defeat them as David did, thus Jesus was rejected as the Messiah by the Jews and still is.