The psychology of atheists and theists

[Acitnoids]

Atheists base their discussion on denial of God. For starters.

jan.

Hello Jan,

I identify as an agnostic not an atheist. It has been my experience that when I discuss theology with an atheist they accuse me of being a theist/apologist. When I discuss theology with theists they accuse me of being an atheist. Just out of curiosity, so I don't make an assumption, which denomination of theology do you adhere to?

Are you Catholic, Mormon, Seventh day adventist, Muslim, Jewish, "non denominational"......?

Do you consider the other sects of theology as heretics or brothers and sisters in faith?

I read the bible and related works from the 3rd-1st B.C.E & 1st-4th C.E. almost every day. I like to think I have a good idea of the original ideas that vyed to become what we now call "Christianity".

Which do you identify with and are the other variants acceptable as means to finding salvation? I ask because I do not want to assume your views as others have done to me.

 

[Write4U]

Hello Jan,

Just out of curiosity, so I don't make an assumption, which denomination of theology do you adhere to?

Are you Catholic, Mormon, Seventh day adventist, Muslim, Jewish, "non denominational"......?

Which do you identify with and are the other variants acceptable as means to finding salvation? I ask because I do not want to assume your views as others have done to me.

Don't hold your breath......

 

[Jan Ardena]

So by the phrasing of your sentence it seems you agree that Alex does believe in the Universe and that he does believe in Darwinism?

There doesn’t seem to any reason, or evidence that he actually believes in either. I think he accepts them, because they can justify his world view. I accept evolution ( not Darwinian) because it occurs. But I don’t believe in it.
So in what way do you believe in the universe, and Darwinism?

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Hi Acitnoids,

I identify as an agnostic not an atheist. It has been my experience that when I discuss theology with an atheist they accuse me of being a theist/apologist. When I discuss theology with theists they accuse me of being an atheist. Just out of curiosity, so I don't make an assumption, which denomination of theology do you adhere to?

When we embark on discussions about God, I think we are all agnostic to some degree or other. Simply because there things we don’t know as yet, and things we can’t know.

Atheist and theist, really have nothing to do with agnosticism, because are fundamental positions. Almost as fundamental as we are human beings. One does not need extra knowledge to believe, or lack belief in God.

One can claim to be atheist, but not be atheist, and the same goes for one claiming to be theist.

I think that God, basically, just Is. Theists accept, and believe, atheists don’t, in both counts.

I accept any denomination that adheres to teaching God consciousness, and teaches how to love God. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of religions out there that don’t.

Do you consider the other sects of theology as heretics or brothers and sisters in faith?

I don’t view it like that. I see religions as institutions, controlled by man. It is up to those men what course the religions should go, what they should teach, etc.
I think it is best to acquaint yourself, as much as you can, with scriptures. In this way you keep in touch with the ancient knowledge, so at you have good idea of what teachings of these religions are, and how much they accept God,
rather than just accept what you are being told.

I find that religions adhere to some of the scriptures, and discard others. So I don’t regard them as heritics, but flawed As we all are.

Just because we believe in God, it doesn’t mean we are any less flawed as people who do not believe in God.

Religion has become a way of life nowadays.
Not all religions accept “God” , as God is defined in the scriptures. So they create an idealised version of God.

Atheists also create an idealised version of God.
Their God is one that does not match up to their understanding of what God could be, of what they think evidence of God would constitute.

I read the bible and related works from the 3rd-1st B.C.E & 1st-4th C.E. almost every day. I like to think I have a good idea of the original ideas that vyed to become what we now call "Christianity".

Are you interested in theism at all?
Do you think it is possible to discuss God without discussing religion?

Which do you identify with and are the other variants acceptable as means to finding salvation? I ask because I do not want to assume your views as others have done to me.

We don’t need to discuss religion.
As a theist, I accept and believe in God, so don’t worry about assuming my position.

Jan.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

I think that God, basically, just Is. Theists accept, and believe, atheists don’t, in both counts.

Is the glass half empty or half full?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Yes, and Theists base their discussion on the scientifically unsupported belief in God for their starting and only position.

So what is your point.....

My point is , you are in denial, and everything is based on that denial.

Theist base their discussion on their belief.
We don’t need scientific support to back our belief. But you need scientific support to give the impression of justifying your atheism.

Jan.

 

[Write4U]

Is the glass half empty or half full?

Carlin would say; "The glass is too big!"...........

 

[Write4U]

My point is, you are in denial, and everything is based on that denial. Jan.

Well, I am not in denial of anything that has been proven true.
After all, denial is "not accepting something that is proven true".

Denial, in ordinary English usage, is asserting that a statement or allegation is not true.

The same word, and also abnegation (German: Verneinung), is used for a psychological defense mechanism postulated by psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. An individual that exhibits such behavior is described as a denialist or true believer.

 

[Acitnoids]

Hi Acitnoids,



When we embark on discussions about God, I think we are all agnostic to some degree or other. Simply because there things we don’t know as yet, and things we can’t know.

Atheist and theist, really have nothing to do with agnosticism, because are fundamental positions. Almost as fundamental as we are human beings. One does not need extra knowledge to believe, or lack belief in God.

One can claim to be atheist, but not be atheist, and the same goes for one claiming to be theist.

I think that God, basically, just Is. Theists accept, and believe, atheists don’t, in both counts.

I see. So you think all people regardless of denomination are qualified for salvation regardless of which "god based ideal" they adhere to?

I accept any denomination that adheres to teaching God consciousness, and teaches how to love God. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of religions out there that don’t.

Which denominations or religions do not teach the love of God?

I don’t view it like that. I see religions as institutions, controlled by man. It is up to those men what course the religions should go, what they should teach, etc.
I think it is best to acquaint yourself, as much as you can, with scriptures. In this way you keep in touch with the ancient knowledge, so at you have good idea of what teachings of these religions are, and how much they accept God,
rather than just accept what you are being told.

Well from my studies I think every idea ever uttered about God is the work of humans. The scriptures included. What makes Christian scripture more right/correct than say Muslim scripture?

I find that religions adhere to some of the scriptures, and discard others. So I don’t regard them as heritics, but flawed As we all are.

Just because we believe in God, it doesn’t mean we are any less flawed as people who do not believe in God.

Religion has become a way of life nowadays.
Not all religions accept “God” , as God is defined in the scriptures. So they create an idealised version of God.

Which religions would that be exactly?

Atheists also create an idealised version of God.
Their God is one that does not match up to their understanding of what God could be, of what they think evidence of God would constitute.

That seems to be conjecture and assumption from my point of view. What you say here is the main obstacle I have when talking theology with theists. They assume I have faith in believing that some people do not possess the ability to have faith. That is circular logic IMHO.

Are you interested in theism at all?
Do you think it is possible to discuss God without discussing religion?

I am interested in the concept of Faith because I have a hard time accepting something without proof. From my point if view, there is exactly the same amount as proof for a God as there is for there being no God. Exactly Zero. Lack of proof has never been counted as proof in science. 100yr search for Gravity waves is a good example.

Belief in God to me is inseparable from religion because it is based on faith, not proof. Atheists are in the same camp but on the opposite side. As an agnostic I can not say with conviction one way or the other.

We don’t need to discuss religion.
As a theist, I accept and believe in God, so don’t worry about assuming my position.

Jan.

Well, in my many years talking theology with people it has always been helpful to know which faith, if any, the other holds. Based on your discription here can I assume you are "non denominational" or maybe even "new age"?

 

[Michael 345]

Anyone else suspicious of Actinoids who seems to have dragged out of Jan a lot of information

A self serving friend plant?

Or is my sus radar way off?

 

[Acitnoids]

Anyone else suspicious of Actinoids who seems to have dragged out of Jan a lot of information

A self serving friend plant?

Or is my sus radar way off?

Lol ... I want to see what others say. I started posting here in 2008. If I am a plant than that is one hell of a sleeper cell heh.

Thank you for making my point as to how atheist and theists view my views with suspicion heh

 

[Michael 345]

Lol ... I want to see what others say. I started posting here in 2008. If I am a plant than that is one hell of a sleeper cell heh.

Thank you for making my point as to how atheist and theists view my views with suspicion heh

Not your views regard as suspect

Nothing not seen before

It's the extent of the information provided by Jan set radar pings off

Jan has been on my Iggy list for a long time but during the time I was reading his post they looked nothing like the reply you received

I'll sit back now and see how it plays out

 

[Musika]

Anyone else suspicious of Actinoids who seems to have dragged out of Jan a lot of information

A self serving friend plant?

Or is my sus radar way off?

It seems you are so habituated around the performance of content-free trolling that you find the appearance of sensible dialogue off-putting.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Which would you rather eat, organic food, or genetically modified food.

I guess this is the first question I must asl of myself and answer honestly.
Being honest I dont like the choices offerred..one or the other is so unnecessarily limiting.. my prefernce leans to not being bound to select one or the other and eat what pleases me.
I may eat fresh vegies in a salard with some fish at lunch and have some chips or twisties for a snak or because I like the taste of the salt...its like having two girl friends you may like the company of one in the after noon but like to see the other later on the day ... what a terrible choice to make ...you can only see one...no no...and if you marry one because you find you like her more could you not stay friends with the one not as favoured.

What good is a human being, if you scoop out it's humanity?

I guess you suggest not to be a believer means you in effect cant be human and my answer honestly is ...I cant imagine the condition you seek to describe because I dont think humanity is only available to believers.
I dont see faith as nutrition to humanity..I see faith as the junk food that is not good for us...just as sweets rot your teeth faith rots your brain...

I know you think that hidden at the back of my brain is this little thing that really thinks there is some creator and I supress it...but what you cant understand there is not .... I really believe the universe us eternal and there us no creator.
I am content to think all life came from simple cells that became more complex over time through a selection process that over time gave rise to all the speicies and that their design merely based on what works such that the species evolved over time.
The evidence supports the theory so it sounds reasonable.
In contrast the idea for a believer is a infinite eternal creator came out briefly from forever and created a finite universe planning and designing its form and forming a plan as to how it will all work.
And the design featured the design of humans, although god was able to rely heavily on his own design as he made humans in his own image we are told.
I dont believe there is a designer or creator...but evolution does not deal with creation only evolement...same with big bang as it says nothing of creation and deals only with the evolvement of the universe based on our observations.
There are no observations to suggest there is a god that fit the same class as observations in support of both big bang and evolution theories.
Anyways Jan I have been up all night two nights doing astrophotography and not sure if I have answered your questions that you would like me to honestly answer so if there is something please ask and I will answer hinestly for myself and share it with you.
You have a nice day and thank you for your posts.
Alex

 

[Write4U]

Since you are an atheist, with spparent self-confessed airs of innocuousness and all that, I edited it appropriately.

Well, I have not self-confessed anything, innocuous or not. I have nothing to confess.
In fact I just received an award for meritorious public service. Emotionally very rewarding.

 

[Musika]

Well, I have not self-confessed anything, innocuous or not. I have nothing to confess.
In fact I just received an award for meritorious public service.

Well you did rise to the defense of the apparently self confessed innocuous, so ...

 

[Write4U]

Atheist and theist, really have nothing to do with agnosticism, because are fundamental positions. Almost as fundamental as we are human beings. One does not need extra knowledge to believe, or lack belief in God.

That is a completely false statement. It is incumbent on both theist and atheist to argue from knowledge, a fact which is acknowledged in gnosticism itself.

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός gnostikos, "having knowledge", from γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) is a modern name for a variety of ancient religious ideas and systems, originating in Jewish-Christian milieux in the first and second century AD.

These systems believed that the material world is created by an emanation of the highest God, trapping the divine spark within the human body. This divine spark could be liberated by gnosis. Some of the core teachings include the following:

1. All matter is evil, and the non-material, spirit-realm is good.
2. There is an unknowable God, who gave rise to many lesser spirit beings called Aeons.
3. One evil, lower spirit being is the creator who made the universe.
4. Gnosticism does not deal with "sin", only ignorance.
5. To achieve salvation, one needs to get in touch with secret knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Current knowledge leads us to conclude that the probability of theists being right about an "unknowable God" is about 0.0000001 %, and the probability of atheists being right about the utter lack of justification for coming to such an assumption is about 99.9999999 %........

 

[Write4U]

Anyone else suspicious of Actinoids who seems to have dragged out of Jan a lot of information

A self serving friend plant?

Or is my sus radar way off? .....

Perhaps he is using a very clever approach, dealing with the "faith" issue.
His responses to Jan sounded reasonable to me.......

 

[Write4U]

Well you did rise to the defense of the apparently self confessed innocuous, so ...

Your mind works in strange and mysterious ways Musika.
I did not rise to defend anything. I merely made an observation that B w/S asked what I consider to be an important question in context of the OP title.

 

[Write4U]

.its like having two girl friends you may like the company of one in the after noon but like to see the other later on the day ... what a terrible choice to make ...you can only see one...no no...and if you marry one because you find you like her more could you not stay friends with the one not as favoured

Hey, the Mormons have a divine solution to that problem. SISTERWIVES!!!

Convenient huh?.................Don't you love psychology?.....