The problem of Self-Referential systems

Write4U;
indoctrination: "cause to believe something: to teach somebody a belief, doctrine, or ideology thoroughly and systematically, especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions"

"but defining it in a manner applicable to all fields without circularity has consistently eluded scholars"

So what's their problem?
It depends on the application of the concept of time, as explained by Einstein.
'The Meaning of Relativity', Albert Einstein, 1956:
page 1. "The experiences of an individual appear to us arranged in a series of events; in this series, the single events which we remember appear to be ordered according to the criteria of "earlier" and "later", which cannot be analysed further. There exists, therefore, for the individual, an I-time, or subjective time."
If these 'scholars' would analyze how humans apply 'time', they would know.
Yes, and there are several interpretations, depending on the application of the concept.
It's a convention for ordering and recording events, using an arbitrarily defined clock event. Any consistent periodic process can define an um. Science wants to make it deep and mysterious.
I don't. I make it non-existent until there is a duration of change or physical existence. How much simpler can be?
No change, no time. No continued existence, no time.
That's why Einstein placed it under the laws of Relativity. It's a relational measurement.
In today's world, science is a religion, a belief that it will solve all of humanity's problems.
Where does it say that? Prove it. Making declarative statements without evidence is not the scientific way.
I know the bible says that belief in God will solve all of humanity's problems and I can prove that. Of course, it doesn't seem to have done anything to solve humanity's problems, and we can prove that also.
"The record jumps, and all the evidence shows that the record is real: the gaps we see reflect real events in life's history not the artefact of a poor fossil record...The fossil record flatly fails to substantiate this expectation of finely graded change." (Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution Columbia University Press, 1982, p. 59
You have completely misunderstood the thrust of the argument. Let's examine the facts. Eldredge and Tattersall do not deny evolution, quite the opposite, they claim evolution is more complicated than the fundamental claim of Darwinian evolution via natural selection. They propose there are other factors involved, but never disavow Darwinian Evolution.
From wiki:
The extended evolutionary synthesis revisits the relative importance of different factors at play, examining several assumptions of the earlier synthesis, and augmenting it with additional causative factors.[1][2] It includes multilevel selection, transgenerational epigenetic inheritance, niche construction, evolvability, and several concepts from evolutionary developmental biology.[3][4][5][6]
Not all biologists have agreed on the need for, or the scope of, an extended synthesis. Many have collaborated on another synthesis in evolutionary developmental biology, which concentrates on developmental molecular genetics and evolution to understand how natural selection operated on developmental processes and deep homologies between organisms at the level of highly conserved genes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_evolutionary_synthesis

If we go back far enough, the fossil record also shows that you have no ancestors. Yet here you are! Can you prove that you had ancestors? There is no fossil record of your tribe beyond a few generations. Maybe, if we're lucky we might find a 10,000 year old fossil with some of your DNA and you can claim there is proof that you exist because you have a fossil record of your ancestors... won't that be neat!
Are all these people who question evolution because of lack of evidence, wrong?
Yes!!!!!
Evolution is not a belief system. It is a demonstrated axiomatic process and there is no lack of evidence. That assumption is false indoctrination. There is overwhelming evidence, but the questioners ignore the evidence and only focus on a few gaps in the scientific knowledge. They are the indoctrinated ones. They are ignorant of the existing facts.

This is the origin of the scientific observation that "God is only a God of the gaps in the scientific record".
 
Last edited:
Write4U;

I make it non-existent until there is a duration of change or physical existence. How much simpler can be?No change, no time. No continued existence, no time.That's why Einstein placed it under the laws of Relativity. It's a relational measurement.

The clock is ticking continuously, accumulating time, even when you aren't aware of any change, like when asleep, or in a coma.
All measurements are relational, comparing something to a standard.

Einstein replaced universal time with subjective/observer time, based on finite light speed. Applied time is the same around the world, especially for global travel. NIST supplies the world with a global time standard.

It requires a male and female human to produce another human.
What is the origin of the first pair?
 
Write4U;
The clock is ticking continuously, accumulating time, even when you aren't aware of any change, like when asleep, or in a coma. All measurements are relational, comparing something to a standard.
Clocks are ticking because they continue to exist and count duration in arbitrary units.
Einstein replaced universal time with subjective/observer time, based on finite light speed. Applied time is the same around the world, especially for global travel. NIST supplies the world with a global time standard.
No it isn't. We have arbitrarily established Greenwich as the "mean earth time" reference.

Europe
300px-Time_zones_of_Europe.svg.png

Time in Europe
:
Western European Time / Greenwich Mean Time (UTC)
Western European Time / Greenwich Mean Time (UTC)
Western European Summer Time / British Summer Time / Irish Standard Time (UTC+1)
Central European Time (UTC+1)
Central European Summer Time (UTC+2)
Eastern European Time / Kaliningrad Time (UTC+2)
Eastern European Time (UTC+2)
Eastern European Summer Time (UTC+3)
Moscow Time / Turkey Time (UTC+3)
pale colours indicate where standard time is observed all year; dark colours indicate where a summer time is observed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_the_United_Kingdom#

World
time-zone-map.jpg

https://www.worldclock.com/time-zone-map/

It's all relative to worldtime coordinates within the greater spacetime coordinates. And it only counts duration of earth's existence. If the earth were to be destroyed by a comet, end of worldtime coordinates and map.

There is no time in the future. There is not even a guarantee of future time.
It requires a male and female human to produce another human.
What is the origin of the first pair?
That's not true at all. It started as asexual (1 parent) reproduction and sexual (2 parent) reproduction came later, via natural selection.
It requires male and female to introduce variety, but there are several species of organisms that reproduce without males. see next page.
 
phyti said: It requires a male and female human to produce another human.
That's true for humans, but we are not the only species around. There are many species that do not procreate sexually.


ANIMALS THAT DON'T HAVE A MALE FOR REPRODUCTION
It is extremely rare for complex organisms to evolve into an all-female species, but it can happen. For some species, the involvement of males in the reproductive process is entirely optional. While the males may exist, they are not essential to reproduction. Lots of animals can reproduce without male involvement, from the smallest insects to the biggest reptiles. Asexual reproduction comes in many forms too, from basic cell reproduction to complex cloning cycles.
Scalloped-hammerhead-Christopher-Dascher.jpg

Self-Fertilizing Sharks
Virgin female hammerhead and blacktip sharks have both been documented as producing young, much to the surprise of the scientific community. Little is known about the process by which these sharks are able to reproduce, but an emerging consensus suggests that sharks are evolving to use parthenogenesis, a process in which female eggs self-fertilize, when populations dip. In both recorded cases, no males were present when the captive female sharks became pregnant.
Budding for Babies
Jellyfish, sea anemones and flatworms all use a process called budding to reproduce. This complex process of reproduction, most commonly associated with strawberries, sees the parent produce cloned cells of itself, which eventually break away and grow into exact replicas of that parent. However, females who use budding as a means of reproduction are also capable of sexual reproduction.
Self-Sexing Insects
Greenflies, stick insects, aphids, water fleas, scorpions, termites and honey bees are all capable of reproducing without males, using parthenogenesis. In the case of the honey bee, the use of parthenogenesis has evolutionary benefits, as they elect to use parthenogenesis when the local population requires more workers, or more queens.
Immaculate Reptile Conception
The boa constrictor, monitor lizard and Komodo dragon are both capable of becoming pregnant without male fertilization, by parthenogenesis. This form of reproduction is not the preferred method and has evolutionary disadvantages for the species, as it constitutes a form of inbreeding that reduces genetic diversity. Whiptail lizards however, have evolved to a point where no males exist. This all-girl species relies entirely on parthenogenesis.
Advanced Avian Parthenogenesis
Chickens and turkeys can use parthenogenesis to fertilize their eggs. However, unlike reptiles, avian parthenogenesis has evolutionary benefits. It is most typically observed in younger hens, who have lower levels of age-related genetic damage and can therefore produce more viable young. Birds also produce nonidentical replicas, so genetic diversity is wider in populations conceived by parthenogenesis.
https://animals.mom.com/animals-dont-male-reproduction-9838.html

The Silvery Salamander mates with a male but rejects his sperm. The female has fully formed double helix of her own DNA and the act of mating triggers mitosis. As a result all her offspring are female and clones of the mother.
Lacking its own males, the LJJ biotype breeds with male blue-spotted or Jefferson salamanders from March to April. The males' spermatophores only stimulate egg development; their genetic material does not contribute to the offspring's DNA. This mode of reproduction (a form of natural cloning) is called gynogenesis. The females lay cylindrical egg masses and attach them to underwater twigs. This salamander is not often observed and its diet and lifestyle are unknown
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvery_salamander

A perfect example of primitive self-referential organisms.

What is the origin of the first pair?
It ain't Adam and Eve. That is just an allegorical myth. Male female mating can be observed in Paramecium a single celled organism.

370px-Paramecium_diagram.png


Conjugation is a method of sexual reproduction in paramecium. In this two paramecium of opposite mating types come in contact with each other. They attach to their ventral surfaces and exchange of genetic material takes place through the cytoplasmic bridge. The male pronucleus fuses with the female pronucleus to form the diploid zygote which undergoes a series of divisions to form the mature organism.
675081_632635_ans_c750a9a913a8493e961d7353c314eaae.jpg

https://www.toppr.com/ask/question/which-of-the-following-results-from-conjugation-in-paramecium/

There is your Adam and Eve.....:tongue:

The Evolution of Sex
Asexually reproducing animals pass on all of their chromosomes, and consequently all copies of each gene, to their offspring. In contrast, due to meiosis, diploid sexually reproducing animals have two copies of each chromosome but only pass one copy of each chromosome on to an egg or sperm cell. This means that a sexually reproducing diploid animal only passes half of its total genes on to its offspring. Despite the cost of losing half of the potential passage of genes to the next generation, sexual reproduction is much more common than asexual reproduction among animals because it provides several evolutionary advantages.
The major advantage of sexual reproduction comes from genetic recombination. Genetic recombination allows an organism's offspring to be genetically diverse. Sexual reproduction increases the chances of acquiring favorable mutations and is unlikely to propagate deleterious ones. Genetic diversity within a group of offspring is advantageous as the local environment changes. This idea becomes clear when we examine organisms that can reproduce both sexually and asexually. Aphids, for example, will favor asexual reproduction when their environment is stable. When the environment is going to turn cold, most species of aphids reproduce sexually, because sexual reproduction produces eggs that are freeze tolerant and can diapause during the winter (Simon et al. 2002).
Genetic diversity may also lead to evolved defenses against parasites and disease. The mud snail, Potamopyrgus antipodarum, is host to several trematode parasites. Sexual individuals of this species are more common in areas where risk of trematode infection is high. In areas where the risk of infection is low, asexual individuals have displaced sexual ones (King et al. 2009). This suggests that the genetic diversity acquired from sexual reproduction is necessary for this species to defend against parasites, as asexual individuals may not easily survive in areas where parasites are high.
Sexual reproduction often involves evolutionary differentiation of males and females. Females typically produce significantly fewer gametes (eggs) than males and invest heavily in each one. On the other hand, males produce many gametes (sperm) and invest little into each one. These strong differences in gamete investment between the sexes leads to reproductive strategies between the sexes that, in some cases, conflict. Females may spend more care than males selecting a mate due to the high cost of their gametes.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/mating-systems-in-sexual-animals-83033427/

IMO, asexual reproduction must have been the first method of reproduction, but apparently the first diploid sexuality appeared fairly early in the evolution of more complex organisms.

Prokaryotic Reproduction
Reproduction in prokaryotes is
asexual and usually takes place by binary fission. The DNA of a prokaryote exists as a single, circular chromosome. Prokaryotes do not undergo mitosis; rather the chromosome is replicated and the two resulting copies separate from one another, due to the growth of the cell.Aug 14, 2020
https://bio.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Introductory_and_General_Biology/Book:_General_Biology_(Boundless)/22:_Prokaryotes:_Bacteria_and_Archaea/22.2:_Structure_of_Prokaryotes/22.2B:_Prokaryotic_Reproduction#.

There seem to be some leftovers Prokaryote processes in this age of the Eukaryotes.

This does present an interesting question about "immaculate conception". Might a female human be able to produce offspring without the assist of a male?
The answer still is not applicable to the biblical account. If Mary had experienced immaculate conception (without the assistance of male sperm) Jesus would have been female and a clone of Mary.

 
Last edited:
You still don't understand.
You make unjustified assumptions, implying the poster is ignorant.
Eg. I didn't say human reproduction was the only means.
Darwin believed in God, and as a self appointed spokesman, decided he would fill in the details of creation of life forms.
He wasn't there, how would he know?
It'a all speculation. Neither he, nor you, nor anyone working in the fields relating to the subject, have any evidence of intermediate species. There is variation everywhere in the world., from a stone to a butterfly.
The average person would not write a book explaining brain surgery not knowing anything about it.
 
You still don't understand.
You make unjustified assumptions, implying the poster is ignorant.
Ignorant of what? Don't just say that. Give me facts?
Eg. I didn't say human reproduction was the only means.
Darwin believed in God, and as a self appointed spokesman, decided he would fill in the details of creation of life forms.
And you, as believer and self-appointed spokesman for God, can tell me the details of Abiogenesis?
He wasn't there, how would he know?
He was there and then he knew!
It'a all speculation. Neither he, nor you, nor anyone working in the fields relating to the subject, have any evidence of intermediate species. There is variation everywhere in the world, from a stone to a butterfly.
And everything in between, no?
You cannot disprove something by confirming it. Intermediate species are everywhere. Life does not deliver a finished product. You and I and everything else are intermediate forms of our species, be they bacterial or mammal. Just look at the variety of intermediate hominids that are now extinct, and for which we do have fossil records.
Just look at the fossils of thousands of species (some extant, some extinct). Why do you refuse to look and draw logical inferences.

You ignore the enormous timelines we are dealing with. Of course there are gaps. If you bury a steak, how long does it take before it has disintegrated completely and there is no trace left of that steak. Does that mean there never was a steak? Bury that steak in some cement and a million years later you may find a bone, proving there was a steak. And from the bone's DNA, you can determine what animal it came from.

The basic DNA structure provides the blueprint of the species, but there are very few clones (identical copies), the rest are intermediate forms. When you see variety, you are looking at intermediate forms.

Origins of Humankind
Fossils Reveal the Story of Our Relatives
In the 8 million years or so since the earliest ancestors of humans diverged from the apes, at least a dozen humanlike species, called hominids, have lived on Earth. And this list is getting longer. As scientists discover new fossils, the hominid family tree grows new branches.
But fossils are often difficult to categorize neatly as one species or another.
Like all creatures, no two individual hominids were alike. And over the millions of years most of the species existed, hominids changed; they evolved; some diverged and became new species.[/quote] This is the story of our distant relatives, as told by the fossil record.
hominidtree.gif

A - Orrorin tugenensis (6 mya)
B - Ardipithecus ramidus (4.4 mya)
C - Australopithecus anamensis (4.2 to 3.9 mya)
D - Australopithecus afarensis (3.6 to 2.9 mya)
E - Kenyanthropus platyops (3.5 to 3.3 mya)
F - Australopithecus africanus (3 to 2 mya)
G - Australopithecus aethiopicus (2.7 to 2.3 mya)
H - Australopithecus garhi (2.5 mya)
I - Australopithecus boisei (2.3 to 1.4 mya)
J - Homo habilis (2.3 to 1.6 mya)
K - Homo erectus (1.8 to 0.3 mya)
L - Australopithecus robustus (1.8 to 1.5 mya)
M - Homo heidelbergensis (600 to 100 tya)
N - Homo neanderthalensis (250 to 30 tya)
O - Homo sapiens (100 tya to present)
mya = millions of years ago tya = thousands of years ago

The Hominid Family Tree
At first glance, it seems there are far more questions than answers regarding the relationships among species on the hominid family tree. The graphic above plots 15 different species along a timeline spanning 6 million years, and it depicts, with connecting lines, how some scientists think these species relate to one another. A few relationships are clear. For instance, there is consensus among scientists that the three most recent species of hominids (Homo heidelbergensis, Homo neanderthalensis, and modern humans, Homo sapiens) all evolved from an earlier species called Homo erectus. But other relationships are murkier.
Indeed, our view of the origins of humankind is incomplete, and the search for pieces to the puzzle continues. But to view the question marks on the hominid family tree merely as gaps in our knowledge belies the reality of evolution. Hominid species were changing over periods of hundreds of thousands of years, adapting to new environmental conditions. And so, given that the present fossil record gives us only a glimpse of these evolving species, it's very difficult -- even unnatural -- to identify exactly when a species "became" something else.
In order to begin to understand human evolution, however, scientists have had to take the fossils they have, analyze them, and categorize them based on similarities and differences. In this way, they are able to find trends among the species and a better understanding of how they came to be. In this way they have allowed us a glimpse into our ancient past -- a glimpse that will undoubtedly become clearer in years to come.
-> Learn about the fossilized evidence of our fellow hominids

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/humankind/low_bandwidth.html
The average person would not write a book explaining brain surgery not knowing anything about it.
Exactly, the average theist should not write a book explaining science, not knowing anything about it.
You can make all the grandiose statements you like. Theist creationists know much less about biology than scientific Biologists. Why do you reject their knowledge and insist that your ignorance (no offense) is more authoritative than theirs?

If you agree that there is no evidence of "irreducible complexity", then you must also agree with the implication that every extant individual organism itself is an example of an evolutionary intermediate form. This evolution thing just keeps rolling along. There is no finished product anywhere. And even if there is, then a single unfortunate event may bring about the extinction of a whole evolutionary line.

The butterfly effect applies to everything going forward or backward. It's a self-referential mathematical algorithm (an equation).
 
Write4U

ignorant of what? Don't just say that. Give me facts?

Of whatever you post from all your sources. Do you think other people don't do research?

[/quote]
And you, as believer and self-appointed spokesman for God, can tell me the details of Abiogenesis? [/quote]

There you go, putting up words that were never posted. We are born into the world totally ignorant of what it is, why were are here, etc. We only know what is revealed to us, which includes our ability to analyze our world for the purpose of understanding.
It's a contradiction that Darwin was a theist, yet didn't think a supreme being could create life forms that are fully functional and autonomous. Very presumptuous.
If God had explained the details of forming a universe and life forms, no one, including Darwin would have understood. The human has limited ability. The watchmaker is greater than the watch. We don't need to know the details to live a contented life, just good rules of conduct.

And from the bone's DNA, you can determine what animal it came from.

Possible since the DNA corresponds to a specific species.

The basic DNA structure provides the blueprint of the species, but there are very few clones (identical copies), the rest are intermediate forms. When you see variety, you are looking at intermediate forms.
Genetic code has been copied billions of times producing the same species. Variety is not intermediate forms. All colored roses are still roses. People around the world vary in physical characteristics, yet remain human. Variety is the norm.
Intermediate forms are the proposed transitional stages like ape to man, etc.
As the fossil record shows, species enter and leave the world unchanged.
The thalidomide babies were born without extremities, fingers, toes, due to chemical interference from the medications prescribed. Their DNA was not altered.

Hitler and his organization killed millions of people.
The nuclear bomb on Hiroshima killed millions of people.
The 2011 tsunami in Japan killed approx 16000 people.
The 2020 covid virus has killed over 1/2 million people, and still going.
That's a short list! None of those were natural selection.
 
Write4U said: ignorant of what? Don't just say that. Give me facts?
Write4U
Of whatever you post from all your sources. Do you think other people don't do research?
OK, no facts.
W4U said: And you, as believer and self-appointed spokesman for God, can tell me the details of Abiogenesis?
There you go, putting up words that were never posted.
I just gave you an example of what you posted about Darwin.
We are born into the world totally ignorant of what it is, why were are here, etc. We only know what is revealed to us, which includes our ability to analyze our world for the purpose of understanding.
Not really, we have some 4.5 billions years of evolution in our collective memory. And when we grow up we have the ability to observe, measure, analyze, test, model, and duplicate how things work. Nothing extraordinary is required to make it all work. So, you are wrong in the assumption that God is a necessary agent to make it work. God is a human invention and superfluous to the Universe. If man becomes extinct there will be no one that believes in a god! But will the Universe end at that point. Of course not. Gods exist only in the mind, not in spacetime.
It's a contradiction that Darwin was a theist, yet didn't think a supreme being could create life forms that are fully functional and autonomous. Very presumptuous.
That is illogical. Darwin believed in God as a universal a priori creative force. He just didn't think God was necessary for evolution of species, which is true. We don't need God to breed a prize bull from successive artificial selection for desirable traits. It's all right in front of you, but you refuse to acknowledge facts.
If God had explained the details of forming a universe and life forms, no one, including Darwin would have understood.
Darwin did in fact understand how evolution via natural selection happens. If I believed in God I would advance the idea that God found the perfect method of creating a self-improving system of natural selection for beneficial survival techniques.
The human has limited ability. The watchmaker is greater than the watch.
That's a contradictory statement. Humans are greater than the sum of its biome. Nature is the ultimate mathematical watchmaker
We don't need to know the details to live a contented life, just good rules of conduct.
I disagree, we need to know details in order to make good rules of conduct. All of biological history can attest to that fact. It is the evolutionary system which works in several ways, but statistically selects for greatest survivability.
Possible since the DNA corresponds to a specific species.
How is it that we have DNA from Neanderthals in our DNA? How is it that All great apes share some 98 % same DNA? It is that 2% that makes the difference. Now do you understand that new species usually require only a minor change in DNA to acquire whole new growth patterns.
Genetic code has been copied billions of times producing the same species. Variety is not intermediate forms. All colored roses are still roses. People around the world vary in physical characteristics, yet remain human. Variety is the norm.
Again, you fail to see that sufficient variety of long periods of time may result in significant distinctive features and properties, worthy of a new name (specie).
Intermediate forms are the proposed transitional stages like ape to man, etc.
And we have sufficient fossil records to show the evolution and speciation of the hominids. See Post #106. Again you overlook the obvious.
As the fossil record shows, species enter and leave the world unchanged.
That statement proves nothing. In fact it is wrong. Individuals enter and leave the world unchanged. Species change with every generation.
The thalidomide babies were born without extremities, fingers, toes, due to chemical interference from the medications prescribed. Their DNA was not altered.
Oh yes it was. Do your research. I've done enough research for you to fill a college course.
It was never thought that thalidomide affected the DNA of patients. Nobody expected any effect to be observed in the children of the victims, but unfortunately new research is suggesting effects can be passed through generations.
Of 380 children born to thalidomide victims, 11 have suffered congenital limb defects, a rate 5 times higher than in the general population. Research has suggested it can also alter the DNA of eggs and sperm in rats.
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/thalidomide/effects.html
Hitler and his organization killed millions of people.
The nuclear bomb on Hiroshima killed millions of people.
The 2011 tsunami in Japan killed approx 16000 people.
The 2020 covid virus has killed over 1/2 million people, and still going.
That's a short list! None of those were natural selection.
Of course it is! Again, you talk about the supernatural grandeur of God, and you completely box yourself in when considering how Nature finds expression, from evolutionary processes such as Abiogenesis to devolutionary processes like Genocide. It's all natural and as such is part of the natural selection process, by any means or cause.
 
phyti said:
It requires a male and female human to produce another human.
What is the origin of the first pair?
In the same organism.

Genome study reveals how green algal species became hermaphrodite
Overview of the press release
A research team has shed light on how male and female sex-determining chromosomes in the ancestor of Volvox africanus, a species of green alga, were changed after evolving into a hermaphrodite species.
Evolutionary transitions between separate sexes (dioecy) and other mating systems such as hermaphrodites (possessing both male and female sex functions) are common across animals, plants, and algae. However, the fates of male and female sex-determining chromosomes in an ancestral dioecious species after an evolutionary transition to a hermaphrodite species have remained unresolved in all organisms.
To understand what happened to the male and female sex-chromosomes after the transition, Hisayoshi Nozaki, a researcher in the Department of Biological Sciences at the Graduate School of Science, and a research team examined active culture strains of two closely related dioecious (V. reticuliferus) and hermaphrodite (V. africanus) species of Volvox that were collected from Lake Biwa, an ancient lake in Japan.

Female%20spheroids2.jpg

Female sexual spheroids and an asexual spheroid of Volvox reticuliferus. Photo by Hisayoshi Nozaki.

https://www.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/en/info/7378/
 
Back
Top