The perils of precision-guided advanced weaponry

"Nuke boater tell me how much you know of life in the real fighting services."

Don't forget while comparing resumes that I'm an active pilot, and that I too have been to war. Because Kohntopp could see orange on the vehicle tops from twelve thousand, he could certainly have also seen both the panels and silhouettes of the British Scimitars and Spartans beneath him on his first run on the target. But this was his very first combat mission, and his fangs were buried so far into the floorboards that he was plainly not satisfactorily identifying targets before engaging them.
 
hypewaders, a combat pilot? I found a video and nothing in it show any of the stuff that you claim, he didn't make the run until after he was cleared by the FAC and ground control, it was affirmed by them that there were no friendly's in the area, please provide any transcripts that back up your lynch mob mentality, as you are truly a mental case, and I wouldn't want you on any jury for anything because you make up your mind with out looking at any facts at all.
 
"hypewaders, a combat pilot?"

I'm not a combat pilot, nor do I pretend to be. But shall we revisit your earlier post (# 28 in this thread) BR:

your the one talking out your ass, I flew Helicopters in Vietnam
Click to expand...


"he didn't make the run until after he was cleared by the FAC and ground control"

Not on the tape I watched, and not in the transcript I've read. Can you quote the specific clearances, or provide the footage hack?

"it was affirmed by them that there were no friendly's in the area"

Kohntopp did not provide coordinates for the position he was contemplating attacking. He discussed with FAC the revetted Iraqi vehicles, then attacked the moving British ones. He asked for arty to confirm the position, but couldn't wait for it, so he just rolled in hot.

"please provide any transcripts..."

Roger that.
 
hypewaders said:
"he didn't make the run until after he was cleared by the FAC and ground control"

Not on the tape I watched.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should watch again? Or read the transcripts of the exchange? I believe the ground controller told the pilots twice that there were no friendlies in the area.

Baron Max
 
Kohntopp (Popov 36) switched targets without coordinating. He was discussing fixed Iraqi positions with the FAC, who confirmed no friendlies at that position. He diverted his attention to the British column moving North along a nearby road, and attacked them without taking any due precautions for identifying those separate targets. FAC (Manila Hotel) didn't clear him onto them, and neither did AWACS (Sky Chief). Kohntopp engaged them on his own cowboy initiative.
 
I don't think the actual incident of friendly fire is at issue here. While there might be some negligence involved, that sort of thing happens. What I'm more concerned about is the cover-up. The US administration would rather lie to us than admit our troops made an embarrassing mistake. They make things classified for partisan political reasons, not national security.
 
No matter what you would like to think, Baron is correct. Unless tha pilots are given the order to fire at any target they consider to be a "target of opportunity" (usually in an area known to be free of friendly forces) they are under strict control from those with advanced intel. We don't send pilots out on free shooting sprees. If that happens, the pilot is court-marshalled and thrown in the klink. If pilots disregard ground control when firing, they're just as guilty.
 
"They make things classified for partisan political reasons, not national security."

That is the danger- under "Unitary Executive" rationalizations, they are the state, and anything goes in evading embarrassment. We've been suffering a bad case of the fascist flue in American government, but I'm optimistic that our Constitutional and public-awareness immune systems are slowly kicking in.

"Unless [the] pilots are given the order to fire at any target they consider to be a "target of opportunity" (usually in an area known to be free of friendly forces) they are under strict control from those with advanced intel."

US forces have never possessed what I would call "advanced intel" in Iraq. From invasion through the occupation, mistake after mistake after mistake have consistently shown that the back streets of the Mideast are a blind spot for our intelligence community. And with every mis-placed projectile, America loses friends we desperately need in sorting this mess out.

So it continues: American misfires have squandered the goodwill and trust of Iraqi people of every faction. We can't buy or even torturously extract the reliable intelligence we need to separate the opposition from the general population, because the opposition and population are melding, as happens whenever a foreign intervention fails.

This one consistent dynamic in Iraq is a fatal Catch-22: American occupiers are considered reckless despoilers, causing a refusal to cooperate that causes American actions to be misinformed, reckless, and provocative of further Iraqi refusal to cooperate. Because Americans on patrol don't have the background to make up the widening gap in intel, this destructive feedback-cycle can only continue and amplify until American withdrawal.
 
spuriousmonkey said:
if you can't recognize it you shouldn't shoot it.
Click to expand...

Ba da Bing!

Baron Max said:
That's why they have GROUND CONTROLLERS
Click to expand...

And that's why the ground controllers do not have control over the weapons system. The sole decision to strike is that of the pilot.

Baron Max said:
They were flying at 12,000 feet. That's almost 2.5 miles ...and you say it's easy to recognize things from that distance?
Click to expand...

Odd that the cannon on that bird has got a range of 1,250metres then;
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm)

.... also;

"We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2901515.stm)

The pilots fucked up, because they lacked experience. measures were in place to prevent this, and still they fucked up.
 
Last edited:
hypewaders

Kohntopp (Popov 36) switched targets without coordinating.
Click to expand...

If you read the transcripts, granting the fact that you can read, he never switched targets, please post anything that showed a switch in targeting from the transcripts.
 
phlogistician

“ Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
if you can't recognize it you shouldn't shoot it. ”
Click to expand...

Ba da Bing!
Click to expand...

This isn't sports hunting.

phlogistician

The pilots fucked up, because they lacked experience. measures were in place to prevent this, and still they fucked up.
Click to expand...

Really? how about the Lieutenant Alex MacEwen in charge of the Brits, had he properly reported his position? Ground control information showed no friendly's in the area.

Had the people that Lt. McEwen reported to, updated their positions in a timely manner?

There are a few Russian recon vehicles that look similar to Scimitars, and are used for the same mission Reconnaissance.

phlogistician
The pilots fucked up, because they lacked experience. measures were in place to prevent this, and still they fucked up.
Click to expand...

How about maybe Lt. McEwen maybe misreported his position? the people he reported his position to failed to copy his position properly? or transcribed the position co-ordinates improperly?, the information wasn't updated in a timely manor?, the point is that the pilots were at the end of the information trail, they are operation at the end of the information trail, and they are dependent on the information that need to totally accurate, and that there are a lot of other people who have to do their job and not fuck up the process to.
 
hypewaders,

1337.56 POPOV36: I got a four ship of vehicles that are evenly spaced along a road going north.

1338.21 POPOV35: Evenly spaced? Where we strafed?

1338.23 POPOV36: No. No. Further east, further west, right now. And there’s four or five of them right now heading up there
Click to expand...

Taking things out of context, not kosher, this was part of a transmission were POPOV 36 is trying to tell POPOV 35 were to look for the targets, and the targets were still along the North South Cannel were they were first spotted.

1337.46 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, I believe CASPER is up this push too. Two Super Tomcats.

1337.54 POPOV35: Hey dude.

1337.56 POPOV36: I got a four ship of vehicles that are evenly spaced along a road going north.

1338.04 POPOV36: Look down at your right, 2 o'clock, at 10 o'clock low, there is a, left 10 o'clock low, look down there north along that canal, right there. Coming up just south of the village.

1338.21 POPOV35: Evenly spaced? Where we strafed?

“ 1338.23 POPOV36: No. No. Further east, further west, right now. And there's four or five of them right now heading up there. ”

1338.29 POPOV35: No, I don't have you visual.

1338.30 POPOV36: I'm back at your 6 – no factor.

1338.31 POPOV35: OK, now where's this canal?

1338.35 POPOV35: Don't hit those F18s that are out there.

“ 1338.38 POPOV36: OK. Right underneath you. Right now, there's a canal that runs north/south. There's a small village, and there are vehicles that are spaced evenly there. ”

1338.49 POPOV36: They look like they have orange panels on though.

1338.51 POPOV35: He told me, he told me there's nobody north of here.

1338.52 POPOV36: I know. There, right on the river.

1338.53 POPOV35: I see vehicles though, might be our original dudes.

1339.09 POPOV36: They've got something orange on top of them.

1339.10 POPOV35: POPOV for MANILA 3, is MANILA 34 in this area?

1339.14 MANILA HOTEL: Say again?

1339.15 POPOV35: MANILA HOTEL, is MANILA 34 in this area?

1339.19 MANILA HOTEL: Negative. Understand they are well clear of that now.

1339.23 POPOV35: OK, copy. Like I said, multiple riveted vehicles. They look like flatbed trucks. Are those your targets?

1339.30 MANILA HOTEL: That's affirm.
 
hypewaders, the target zone had been declared clear of friendly forces, that is clearly stated in the Video and transcript, so that gave them weapons free on the targets.


1337.12 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV, understand that was north 800 metres?

1337.16 POPOV35: Confirm, north 800 metres.
Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground. ”
Click to expand...
1337.21
MANILA HOTEL: That is an affirm. You are well clear of friendlies. ”
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
That's not a clearance to attack anything at will, and it was issued in the context of the fixed position 800 meters North- not in the context of the moving patrol to the West. This is part of the responsibility of an attack pilot. Vigilant pilots are a necessary component of the multi-tiered IFF system in a situation like this.
 
hypewaders, they were operating in their assigned sector, the size of which is undetermined, because the sectors referenced are of unknown size, their sectors had been declared clear of friendly's by ground, which is clearance to engage any targets, there is soviet armor that resembles Scimitars, and the vehicles are camouflaged to disrupt their silhouettes, they were in contact with ground through out the engagement, they were not out cowboying, now did Lieutenant Alex MacEwen report his position properly? nothing has been said on that subject, Had the position been reported properly by Lt. MacEwen's reporting command? was the position updated in a timely manor? If Kohntopp (Popov 36) had been operating out side his assigned area they would have burned him, this has been proven to many time by the prosecution of troops that have stepped over the line, yes somebody screwed up, but the pilots can only make decisions on the information that is fed to them, and the information given them at he time of the incident was that their area of responsibility was clear of friendly, and they were in contact with MANILA HOTEL, their controller throughout the engagement, so tell me how they we running amuck?
 
"their sectors had been declared clear of friendly's by ground, which is clearance to engage any targets"

Bullshit. It was a fluid invasion, and precautions against Blue-on-Blue were briefed for, and the duty of everyone in the chain.

"there is soviet armor that resembles Scimitars"

Like what.

"the vehicles are camouflaged to disrupt their silhouettes"

And were marked with day-glo orange panels to disrupt that camo when viewed from above.

"Had the position been reported properly by Lt. MacEwen's reporting command?"

Yes. From the Board of Inquiry Report:

At that time D Sqn HCR was carrying out its mission as Force Recce and was conducting reconnaissance along Route SPEAR which was also their Limit of Exploitation. Their patrols were predominately equipped with Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance (Tracked) (CVR(T)) Scimitar and CVR(T) Spartan. Situational Awareness was maintained by the use of an 'all informed' VHF net over which the vehicles would pass regular reports providing the necessary information...

The ground situation information given by MANILA HOTEL to POPOFF Section was scant, and for Type 3 CAS, insufficient friendly positional information and control measures were passed or requested
Click to expand...

From the BBC:

a close reading of both reports shows they agree on the sequence of events which led to the American pilots firing on the British convoy.

The pilots did not have a clear idea of where they were and where the enemy was.

So when their forward air controller radioed in that the area was "clear of friendlies", he was talking about another location altogether, an area north of a canal outside Basra, where Iraqi forces had been spotted.

The A-10 tankbusters were flying south of the canal, where only a small force of the Household Cavalry was located, pushing north during what they thought was a welcome pause in the day's fighting.

That confusion over what the military calls "situational awareness" need not have been fatal as the British armoured vehicles were identified with orange panels, showing friendly forces.

But then, tragically, the pilots mistook those orange panels for "orange rocket launchers" - and went in for the kill.
Click to expand...

"the information given them at he time of the incident was that their area of responsibility was clear of friendly, and they were in contact with MANILA HOTEL, their controller throughout the engagement, so tell me how they we running amuck?"

The information given did not pertain to the British Patrol attacked. It pertained to Iraqi formations across the canal to the North. Popov 36 engaged a new target South and West of the Canal without waiting for or participating in IFF procedures.
 
hypewaders,

Russian Airborne BMP's

Day-glo orange panels are used by every military in the world

A close reading of both reports ( Does that mean spinning the report to what you wish it to mean?)

The information given did not pertain to the British Patrol attacked.
Click to expand...

If the British Patrol had not reported properly, of the report was not forwarded in a timely manner, such information wouldn't be known to be fowarded.

hypewaders,

The information given did not pertain to the British Patrol attacked. It pertained to Iraqi formations across the canal to the North. Popov 36 engaged a new target South and West of the Canal without waiting for or participating in IFF procedures.
Click to expand...

Your opinion and spin, you don't know the size of the area of responsibility of POPOV flight, they were in contact with their controller, the area had been declared clear of friendly, and can you prove that POPOV flight was out side their area of responsibility? and that with the lull in the fighting that Lt. McEwen had properly reported his position? or that it had been reported correctly and in a timely manner? Again it would appear that POPOV was in the correct sector of their coverage, and Lt. McEwen had over run his assignment, and didn't report the fact, or that report was not fowarded in a timely manner.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top