The limitations of the scientific method and scientism

Lakon



There are "Open Letters" and other "petitions" from groups representing crackpottery in almost all scientific fields. We usually have to deal with them in the Evolution subjects, but there are also anti-Big Bang groups as well. While 218 "Scientists and Engineers"sound substantial, a superficial look into their actual backgrounds usually shows that the "Scientists and Engineers" are speaking out of their specialty, don't have any training or knowledge in the subject being criticized or are vaporware. Like the "Pilots and Engineers for Truth" they are bogus, with very few actual "Pilots or Engineers" at all(and those few being known to be crackpots). And while I wouldn't ask my bus driver to explain the physics of anything, somehow the driver of an aircraft knows a lot about the physics of 911. The main thrust of most of these groups is to stir controversy(where there should be none)in order to get you to purchase their books(where their money comes from). There are always scientists of a lesser grade(to put it kindly)who may actually believe the dreck they publish, Erich von Däniken made a good living doing this but if you ever talk to him you find yourself looking around in panic, searching for several beefy guys with a straight jacket and a stun gun, he's absolutely nuts. Even when these types of groups are legit, it usually is caused by the politics of a dying paradigm that these scientists cling to. The older we get, sometimes, the less we are able to accept new things when we spent most of our professional life promoting the loser out of the competing theories. The Big Bang has had a lot of detractors for this reason, including even Einstein for a short time(he thought the Universe was static), Arp never recovered from this behavior, Einstein learned new things and moved on. This is why Arp(a respected scientist who just got too old to change his world view)is the most prominent name on the list. While there are legitimate scientists who refuse to accept reality, that doesn't make them right(there is no authority in science and if every scientist in the world thinks differently, the scientist who shows by his work that what he says is true is still right). Einstein faced exactly that situation when he first published his paper on Relativity.



The Universe all came out of a dot the size of a period, it was all in contact, therefore smooth. The Big Bang was not an explosion, it was an expansion and as it expanded(especially during Inflation)it maintained this smoothness as can be seen in the Cosmic Background Radiation, which is smooth(homogeneous)to parts per billion, it only had slight differences in density that seeded the formation of galaxies, gravity did the rest. Homogeneous is a charactistic of the Universe, but it is a snapshot of the entire Universe at any one instant in time. Conditions evolve over time, changing the form of the Universe, so the Universe is not homogeneous over time(IE comparing two different areas separated by time does not show homogeneous character), but if you compare two different areas that are the same age(IE only separated by space)you will see homogeneity. As to where the Big Bang occurred, point your finger at your nose and at the beginning that point was in the very center of the singularity. This is true for every point in the Universe. And the Universe is expanding away from your nose equally in all directions. This doesn't make sense to us as we live inside a four dimensional framework, but the Universe IS a four dimensional framework, it contains itself, finite but unbounded. There really is no edge to the Universe, every point sees itself at the center of the Universe's expansion, it's all relative to your frame of reference. And by looking "way over there" we are really looking "way back there" at a point in past time, because whatever we are looking at is no longer where we are seeing it, nor is it still in the condition we are seeing it in. QQ is right only in that everything we see is in the past, he is wrong in that the information contained in that light is just as fresh(and relevant)as it was a second after it came into existence, and the information does not deteriorate even a little bit because photons experience no time, they don't change and they don't get tired. To the photon it's emission and it's absorption are the same event happening at the same time. Oh, The reason we look for information in the past is because that is when the events happened. It happened here too, but the light from that time from our neighborhood is long gone(it happened here 13.7 billion years ago). Time is a dimension exactly analogous to length, width and depth. It is hard to think of time this way because our everyday experience deals with minuscule bits of time "distance", the "distance" character of time takes huge distances to become noticeable. It took careful measurement of the moons of Saturn on different sides of Earths orbit to determine light speed by measuring the time delay difference of the two distances to show the effect for the first time(by the way, it takes about 30 minutes for light to get to Saturn IIRC).



It depends on whether those galaxies or clusters are bound to each other by gravity. Andromeda has a blue shift, meaning it is moving towards us because we are gravity bound to it and that overwhelms the Dark Energy(whatever it is)that is trying to push them apart. An hour, day or year time span is probably beyond our ability to detect a difference, but the history shown by our observations, compared over thousands and millions of years leave no doubt it is occurring.



The thing is your are having a problem with distance in time. We can see the differences at large distances in time, our instruments are unable at present to do the same at "microscopic" distances in time like one year or even one century except at very close ranges in space(it's about huge distances, resolving power and precision of measurement rather than a problem of theory). They are moving, but they are too far away to see such small changes. And the galaxies we see way back in time are moving at significant fractions of lightspeed RELATIVE to us. They see themselves relatively stationary as we speed off in the distance. This is EXCLUSIVELY a result of the expansion of space between us, not our movement(or theirs)through local space.

Watch the video on this page to get just an idea of how big space is, it only shows the closest 150 light years but will blow your mind.

http://phys.org/news/2013-03-astronomers-remote-reconnaissance-solar.html

Oh, and bookmark the homepage of this place, visit it every day. Go to space/earth and then astronomy(my favorite) and you will find astounding photos, videos and articles that are almost always good science.

Grumpy:cool:

Hi Grumpy. I watched the video. Fascinating. I've seen something similar starting at the electron level and going out to the galactic - also fascinating. Thanks for the reply. I appreciate you taking the time to elucidate all this. Will respond to some points soon.
 
So why ?

It certainly looked like something was in transit. What ?
It appears all he did was not much different to any laser light show. He used cloudy liquid in the coke bottle [not a vacuum] to reflect the energy of the laser which is similar to projecting a laser light beam through a cloud of smoke.
you will also notice at the end where he points out a residual reflection of light at the back of the bottle that seems to contradict his claim any way as the reflected light did not slowly progress through the liquid backwards in the same visible way the original beam progressed forwards.
You will also note that there was no sign of the pulse prior to entering the coke bottle.
A clever stunt but still only a stunt.IMO
Good light show though.. I gotta admit that.
 
Out of curiosity, why is shooting a laser at the mirror on the moon (that was left by an Apollo mission) and unsing the transit time to accurately measure the distance to the moon not acceptable?
every thing is acceptable except that the time delay recorded has not been proved to be "transit" time. It is this detail, whether transit time or not, that makes a massive amount of difference to the way light data and all data associated is interpreted.
The first part of the challenge is to recognize and acknowledge that the current acceptance of "transit time" may possibly be an error of interpretation. If the time delay was a delay created bv quantum entangled photons taking time to get excited depending on intensity [intensity being determined by mass distance not light distance] you have the possibility of a totally new way of looking at the universe when relating to light effect data.
The distance of separation between two objects of mass can only be determined using mass as the metric. As for energy distance of separation via a vacuum-ous void is always zero.

So the goal is not to prove light has velocity, the goal is actually to disprove whatever goofy idea you come up with for light not having a velocity. I see.

Well, you are going to keep your money, and you can even smugly pretend that you have proved some sort of point, which I think was the real goal anyway.
 
Lakon

It certainly looked like something was in transit. What ?

It looks to me like he used a beam of light, that beam was made up of lots of photons, the optical illusion of transit was caused by some of those photons being absorbed as the beam travels, not by tracking a photon in transit(which cannot be done). The photons which were absorbed along the route of the beam just give the illusion of motion, as each absorption indicates the progress of the beam, but you are not seeing the transit of photons(which, again, do not exist except at the point of emission or absorption, for all practical purposes). We may eventually find a medium that indicates the position of a photon(rather, the electo-magnetic wave that is a photon in transit)without having to destroy it, but I'm not holding my breath in expectation.

Quantum Quack

All radiation we detect on Earth(save one)is made from photons, from the lowest radio wave to the extremes of the xray, it's all photons(again, one exception). Photons take energy from a process and dumps that energy wherever it is absorbed. As it travels in space that energy forms a wave, but since the photons do not experience time these waves are a little bit different from what we think of when we say wave(for one it does not move relative to itself, there is no movement because there is no time to move in).

What is the only radiation we detect here on Earth that is NOT made of photons?

Grumpy:cool:
 
Lakon

Another thing. This is what a PROTON looks like when travelling near light speed(as in an accelerator)...


l direction of travel> It looks like this if it is travelling toward or away from you... O

This is what a PHOTON looks like as it is travelling AT light speed...

l or . direction of travel> It looks like this if it is travelling toward or away from you... l or this... - or anywhere between the two.

The proton is actual mass with three dimensions but near light speed distance in the direction of travel shrinks until, at just below light speed(which no mass can ever reach)it looks like a little disk perpendicular to direction of travel.
The photon(which has no mass) is a wave of electro-magnetic energy frozen in time, it has no dimension in the direction of travel(as it is AT lightspeed)therefore it looks like a flat line travelling through space. If you align this little flat line in the other two dimensions with all the other photons around it, that is polarized light. But that polarization must be imposed on that light at it's creation because you cannot change any characteristic of a photon once it is travelling. Sunglasses are polarized, but they do not change the light, they just filter out those photons not aligned with the glasses polarization.

Grumpy
 
So the goal is not to prove light has velocity, the goal is actually to disprove whatever goofy idea you come up with for light not having a velocity. I see.

Well, you are going to keep your money, and you can even smugly pretend that you have proved some sort of point, which I think was the real goal anyway.
maybe check your comprehension skills. eh?
What does Aqueous Id have to demonstrate or provide to win the $500.usd?
 
maybe check your comprehension skills. eh?
What does Aqueous Id have to demonstrate or provide to win the $500.usd?

Listen chuckles, you really aren't fooling anyone by setting up a false challenge that allows you to move the goal posts at your whim.:rolleyes:
 
Listen chuckles, you really aren't fooling anyone by setting up a false challenge that allows you to move the goal posts at your whim.:rolleyes:
Listen, ding bat, the challenge hasn't changed since it was first published 6 years ago..and of course no one can prove a photon in transit... but you guys still want to worship your mythical photon...
and have the nerve to say you believe in the scientific method.
Ask your buddy Alphanumeric and see if he can lie his way out of it again. He even made a counter bet of $1000 usd a few years ago, which he was forced to retract. And he is supposed to know what he is doing...
 
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@origin,
btw you should check the latest Earthquake trend data and planetary core temperatures and seriously start building your survival kit...
and using your own "call to authority" methods, ask yourself , are the high level scientists/politicians who have an interest in "climate change" daft or what? [hint: they are not daft]

eqdata-20130312.jpg

refer: http://research.dlindquist.com/quake/historical/?mag=6&type=avgstrength&freq=year&style=nonlinear

I also believe that the solar max is the quietest solar max on record....now that's not good..IMO
Global warming may very well take on an entirely new meaning...in the near future

and if you think that I am the only one with Zero Point Theory, your even dafter than I thought you were.
 
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Listen, ding bat, the challenge hasn't changed since it was first published 6 years ago..and of course no one can prove a photon in transit... but you guys still want to worship your mythical photon...
and have the nerve to say you believe in the scientific method.
Ask your buddy Alphanumeric and see if he can lie his way out of it again. He even made a counter bet of $1000 usd a few years ago, which he was forced to retract. And he is supposed to know what he is doing...

I believe I've mentioned this before, but it's worth point out again how appropriate it is that your avatar has egg on its face.
 
I believe I've mentioned this before, but it's worth point(ing) out again how appropriate it is that your avatar has egg on its face.
hey Balerion, wondered when you would show up....

hey just curious what do you think about the new Pope... you know the new leader [elected] who leads the 2.2+billion devoted people in the world?
Should be easy to get some of them onside to increase the prize pool to a million or so for the photon challenge...what do ya think?
I mean it's not like they are going to loose their money , now is it...?
 
I believe I've mentioned this before, but it's worth point out again how appropriate it is that your avatar has egg on its face.
and what does the fact that I created and uploaded an avatar with "egg on my face" [kyneê] actually mean ? do you think?
 
hey just curious what do you think about the new Pope...

I think he's going to be the old Pope relatively soon.

I mean it's not like they are going to loose their money , now is it...?

Loose their money?

and what does the fact that I created and uploaded an avatar with "egg on my face" [kyneê] actually mean ? do you think?

I think it means you're very aware of the fact that you're usually wrong.
 
Irrelevant? Russ what do you think happens to the way data is interpreted for the Hubble telescope if the time delay is not transit time?
You misunderstood my point. My point wasn't that transit time isn't unimportant (it is), my point is that observing the photon while in transit is irrelevant.
 
Hi all. Grumpy and Russ Watters thanks for the replies. I've read through all the posts and without saying I've necessarily understood it all, I have the following queries at this stage;

1) In post 86, I referred to a book 'Big Bang Never Happened' and a subsequent we site where 'An Open Letter to the Scientific Community' was published. This letter was endorsed by 218 people described as scientists and engineers, and hundreds of others described as independent researchers, etc.

Russ, in post 107, you said;
That book is considered crackpottery by most scientists in the relevant field. And petitions don't mean anything.

However, the signatories were not necessarily endorsing the book, nor were they petitioning for anything, so far as I can see. They WERE putting their name to the letter which is highly critical of BBT, dark matter, dark energy, expansion.
Open letters and petitions are basically the same thing: By criticizing the BBT they were hoping to provoke action to fix the problem.
So I ask (anyone) do you really think these folk are crackpots ?
It is a tautology: if a person supports a crackpot position, they are a crackpot. So yes, they are crackpots.
Why would they do this ? What would be their motivation ? Their gain ?
Interesting question and while not really in the scope of the discussion, I think the primary reason is religious-style belief. The first name on the list is a great example of someone who was at one time a mainstream scientist, but is now considered a crackpot. Some people get so invested in a way of thinking, they turn away from contradictory evidence. Harp is generally regarded to have followed a specific line of research in a direction that led to absurdity, despite contradictory evidence. It is a form of tunnel vision.
I checked some of their web links and damn it .. they appear fairly solid intelligent scientists. So that's one of the things I don't get.
I'm reading a somewhat interesting book called "Among the Truthers". It is about conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists are basically history crackpots, so they are cut from the same cloth as scientific crackpots. One of the interesting findings of the author was that conspiracy theorists are typically highly intelligent/educated. And if you think about it, they would have to be to construct elaborate conspiracy/crackpot theories.
2) I read that the universe is homogenous and isotropic - isotropic (invariant with respect to direction) is the interesting one here. These terms I understand. The following however, is an issue I've never understood .. and possibly reveals the greatness of my ignorance in these matters, but, what the heck ..

a) If I had a powerful enough telescope (and I'm sure we do), could I look at two or more nearby galaxies or galaxy clusters today, and then again in an hour, a day, a year, and visually see that they were further apart ? If not, why not ?
No. The distances involved are too large and the speeds too small relative to the distances.
b) The deep space photographs you have published in this thread are remarkable. And I'm sure there are there are even more remarkable and extensive ones available. Are there any that show the same galaxy / clusters, say a year ago, or ten years ago as compared to today, where you can say .. 'See ? That galaxy is further away than that one'. After all, if the expansion is close to the speed of light (an incredible consideration in itself) SOME visual difference must be evident in the space between some galaxies / clusters.
10 years vs a 10 million years is 0.0001%. In a more palatable distance scale, if you saw an object 10 feet away from you and it moved 1/8000th of an inch further away from you, would you notice?

edit: Missed part:
In the context of the conversation you were having with QQ, by 'all the way back' I'm sure you meant deeper and deeper into space (further and further back in time). But if the universe is homogenous and isotropic (same here as waaaaaaaay over/back there) and if, as we say elsewhere, the BB wasn't an explosion but happened everywhere simultaneously, and has no centre, then why do we have to look way over there for this evidence ? Why not here ?
Because telescopes provide a window into the past. Because of the delay in the transit of light, we can see a million years in the past by looking at a galaxy a million light years away. We can see a billion years into the past by looking at a galaxy a billion light years away. Etc.

So we look over there to look into the past, but aliens over there would look here to see into the past.
 
why do you think evidencing transit irrelevant?

1. That they are only observable when they hit something and then they cease to exist is actually a feature of photons. So what you are asking is akin to showing us a white piece of paper and demanding that we prove to you that it is black.

2. In no other context do we require proof of transit when something goes from point A to point B. If I stand 50 feet away from you and show you a baseball, then you close your eyes and I throw it at your head, would you argue that it teleported or that it traveled? At the very least, Occam's razor demands that it travels. Constructing a theory involving teleportation requires assuming the existence of features/capabilities not observed.

3:
Remember the burden of evidence is on the one making the claim. You are claiming that the a photon travels across a vacuum at the rate of 'c'.. so it is up to you to show evidence of a photon or wave in transit.
There are actually two separate requests there. One that it travels and the other that the speed is C. The speed issue is directly proven by measuring the time delay between signals originating and being detected in different places. That's a problem for your nonsense because your nonsense is set up to attempt to use the "not traveling" claim to contradict the time delay claim and the time delay claim is really what you're after so you can use it against Big Bang cosmology.
 
1. That they are only observable when they hit something and then they cease to exist is actually a feature of photons. So what you are asking is akin to showing us a white piece of paper and demanding that we prove to you that it is black.

2. In no other context do we require proof of transit when something goes from point A to point B. If I stand 50 feet away from you and show you a baseball, then you close your eyes and I throw it at your head, would you argue that it teleported or that it traveled? At the very least, Occam's razor demands that it travels. Constructing a theory involving teleportation requires assuming the existence of features/capabilities not observed.

3: There are actually two separate requests there. One that it travels and the other that the speed is C. The speed issue is directly proven by measuring the time delay between signals originating and being detected in different places. That's a problem for your nonsense because your nonsense is set up to attempt to use the "not traveling" claim to contradict the time delay claim and the time delay claim is really what you're after so you can use it against Big Bang cosmology.

do you know what the word paranoia means?
"use it against BB cosmology". really!?... is that what u think?
 
do you know what the word paranoia means?
"use it against BB cosmology". really!?... is that what u think?
Yeah, you haven't been hiding what you believe, what the point of all this is - at least in the context of this thread so far. Beyond that you may have a more general anti-science "everything we know is wrong" stance, but that is outside the scope of the discussion so far, so I'm not sure.

[edit] Looking for background on your "photon challenge" finds a 3 year old thread where you say:
This incredible error generated by the use of the light effect model as it stands is tremendous in it's impact right across the board. IMO

....The point of my trite comment was that once it was accepted in the early 1900's that the photon had to exist to support invariance using 4 dimensional space as it's back drop all science has been doing is making the photon fit as required, without questioing the first premise, that being does it, the photon exist, independent of mass.
So it certainly sounds like the point here is a rejection of pretty much all of physics since 1900, with particularly emphasis on cosmology.

On the other hand:
The Challenger disaster possiby being an outcome of this error in the use of 'c'.
...it is also possible that you're just generally insane.
 
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