The Hastert Surprise

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Milkweed said:
Seems Hasterts gaydar worked just fine.... Too bad Steve moved away. Might not have gotten aids if he would have kept hanging with Hastert.

Okay, look.

I understand that some people just have this need to be contrary, or belligerent, or whatever the hell in order to satisfy some personal empowerment need. This part is basic psychology.

However, the decisions one makes within that framework, while a more complex consideration, are also significant.

Put simply, I actually find it hard to believe one could accidentally be so exactly wrong.

I don't know what you thought you were aiming for, but even in terms of two-bit jokes that make a person sound dangerously uneducated, condoning the sexual abuse of a minor really does seem beyond the pale.

Is it so much to ask that people spare two seconds to think about basic decency?

You know, I still cringe when I see children badly performing musical numbers on television for the delight of audiences that apparently enjoy that sort of thing.

This is a different sort of feeling from watching Punky Brewster dance on the coffee table.

That is to say, I would be embarrassed for you, but aghast seems more appropriate.

Come on. Seriously?

Really?
 
Put simply, I actually find it hard to believe one could accidentally be so exactly wrong.

I don't know what you thought you were aiming for, but even in terms of two-bit jokes that make a person sound dangerously uneducated, condoning the sexual abuse of a minor really does seem beyond the pale.

That is to say, I would be embarrassed for you, but aghast seems more appropriate.

Come on. Seriously?

Really?
The sister says it was abuse. The friend doesnt.

The sister of a now-deceased Illinois man has identified him as an alleged victim of sexual abuse at the hands of Dennis Hastert, according to reports...

A friend of Reinboldt, who did not want to be named, told NBC News that years ago Reinboldt told him he had sexual contact with Hastert.

"I was hanging out at Steve's house in December 1974, I seem to recall we went for a drive and he told me that he was gay. He also said that his first sexual encounter was with Denny Hastert," the friend said.
See the difference in the hearsay. Steves not here to clarify. But as is typical, Steve came out to a friend before confiding in family (his sister).

But in the signed yearbook we have Hastert saying goodbye to Steve as he stops wrestling associated school events for his senior year. If Hastert was still involved with Steve it wasnt because they were alone in the wrestling event clean-up. So either he wasnt in contact with Hastert or he was with him willingly. Makes the sisters recollection of events dubious. But then, thats why family members/associates are not allowed on the jury.

Sexuality is complex. Wasnt that long ago when states used to lock up people for masturbating and/or homosexuality. And that is related to this. States didnt make these various laws against teacher/student sex because it might happen. It was (and still does) occur. Why? Because Sexuality is complex. And yet some of those relationships survive the separation of prison. Letourneau for example. Seems to me it really was enduring love. Forbidden love, but enduring none-the-less.

On MSNBC Friday, former Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), himself gay, said that he did not excuse Hastert's alleged actions -- "the teacher taking advantage of students" -- but that the episode made him think of how destructive homophobia has been.

"Leave aside from the fact the illegitimate nature of the fact that it was a teacher-student relationship that should not have happened," said Frank, who added that it seemed Hastert may have been bisexual. "But the gay sex in itself obviously, it was something which back then was considered so scandalous that Hastert couldn't do it in an -- in a kind of an open way."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/06/dennis-hastert-anti-gay-_n_7521394.html

Are you so sure the revulsion you feel isnt related to the politics of Hastert? So you go ahead and feel aghast or even 'superior' in reflecting on Hasterts situation. You may even feel a bit of satisfaction should Hastert end his legal issues with a bullet to the head (as contemplated by one poster in different terms).

Society makes all kinds of laws that reflect an alleged majority position. Some of those laws make things a crime that shouldnt be a crime.

Pisses me off that I found out the age of consent used to be 10. Dammit I guess I cant bitch about mohammed taking a 9 year old as a bride anymore...
 
The sister says it was abuse. The friend doesnt.


See the difference in the hearsay. Steves not here to clarify. But as is typical, Steve came out to a friend before confiding in family (his sister).

But in the signed yearbook we have Hastert saying goodbye to Steve as he stops wrestling associated school events for his senior year. If Hastert was still involved with Steve it wasnt because they were alone in the wrestling event clean-up. So either he wasnt in contact with Hastert or he was with him willingly. Makes the sisters recollection of events dubious. But then, thats why family members/associates are not allowed on the jury.

Sexuality is complex. Wasnt that long ago when states used to lock up people for masturbating and/or homosexuality. And that is related to this. States didnt make these various laws against teacher/student sex because it might happen. It was (and still does) occur. Why? Because Sexuality is complex. And yet some of those relationships survive the separation of prison. Letourneau for example. Seems to me it really was enduring love. Forbidden love, but enduring none-the-less.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/06/dennis-hastert-anti-gay-_n_7521394.html

Are you so sure the revulsion you feel isnt related to the politics of Hastert? So you go ahead and feel aghast or even 'superior' in reflecting on Hasterts situation. You may even feel a bit of satisfaction should Hastert end his legal issues with a bullet to the head (as contemplated by one poster in different terms).

Society makes all kinds of laws that reflect an alleged majority position. Some of those laws make things a crime that shouldnt be a crime.

Pisses me off that I found out the age of consent used to be 10. Dammit I guess I cant bitch about mohammed taking a 9 year old as a bride anymore...
Or you could just stop defending the immorality and hypocrisy of your political leadership.
 
The sister says it was abuse. The friend doesnt.


See the difference in the hearsay. Steves not here to clarify. But as is typical, Steve came out to a friend before confiding in family (his sister).
Nowhere does it say that the friend does not say it is not abuse.

Saying Hasbert was his first sexual contact is not him saying it is not abuse. The fact he said Hasbert was his first sexual contact indicates that it was abuse, because he was a minor at the time and Hasbert was someone in a position of authority over him.

But in the signed yearbook we have Hastert saying goodbye to Steve as he stops wrestling associated school events for his senior year. If Hastert was still involved with Steve it wasnt because they were alone in the wrestling event clean-up. So either he wasnt in contact with Hastert or he was with him willingly. Makes the sisters recollection of events dubious. But then, thats why family members/associates are not allowed on the jury.
Child molesters and paedophiles often groom their victims. Steve had been a victim of child sexual abuse for a number of years, at the hands of Hasbert. It is not surprising that the abuse continued outside of the context of his initial abuse. This is very common in child sexual abuse.

Sexuality is complex. Wasnt that long ago when states used to lock up people for masturbating and/or homosexuality. And that is related to this.
Are you trying to connect the sexual abuse of a child to homosexuality and masturbation?

States didnt make these various laws against teacher/student sex because it might happen. It was (and still does) occur. Why? Because Sexuality is complex.
Nothing complex about it. And it is about an adult taking sexual advantage of a minor for their own benefit/satisfaction. It's about power, dominance and control. Nothing to do with sexuality.

And yet some of those relationships survive the separation of prison. Letourneau for example. Seems to me it really was enduring love. Forbidden love, but enduring none-the-less.
Once again, power, control and dominance. She raped a minor. Just because that relationship continued and they are still together is not really about an enduring love story.

Are you so sure the revulsion you feel isnt related to the politics of Hastert?
Nah dude.

The revulsion is that he raped a kid. His politics has nothing to do with it.

So you go ahead and feel aghast or even 'superior' in reflecting on Hasterts situation. You may even feel a bit of satisfaction should Hastert end his legal issues with a bullet to the head (as contemplated by one poster in different terms).
You seem to be emotionally vested in this. What's up with the suicide thing with him?

Hastert broke the law and he should be in prison for being a paedophile.

Society makes all kinds of laws that reflect an alleged majority position. Some of those laws make things a crime that shouldnt be a crime.
Are you suggesting that paedophilia should not be a crime?

Pisses me off that I found out the age of consent used to be 10. Dammit I guess I cant bitch about mohammed taking a 9 year old as a bride anymore...
Why? You were just whining that raping children is a crime. So why would you bitch about that?
 
“There's, evidently, a blackmailer, extortionist. No indication yet, and all indications seem to be no charges will be brought against the person who was blackmailing the former speaker.” Brit Hume, Fox News

It's interesting to see how right wing (i.e. Republican) entertainment is using this and the Duggar incident to transform the perpetrators, the offenders, into victims. Frankly, it is an insult to all who have been victimized by sexual predators. It's disgusting.
 
milkweed said:
The sister says it was abuse. The friend doesnt.
If it happened, it was abuse.
milkweed said:
If Hastert was still involved with Steve it wasnt because they were alone in the wrestling event clean-up. So either he wasnt in contact with Hastert or he was with him willingly. Makes the sisters recollection of events dubious
What it does is put the probable time of initial abuse in or before the beginning of wrestling season (winter) in Steve's junior year. How does that make the sister's account dubious?
milkweed said:
Society makes all kinds of laws that reflect an alleged majority position. Some of those laws make things a crime that shouldnt be a crime.
I'll bite: Which of the relevant laws here do you think are making crimes out of things that should not be crimes?
milkweed said:
Are you so sure the revulsion you feel isnt related to the politics of Hastert?
In my case, of course some of it is - the sheer hypocrisy of his rhetoric, the meanness of his attitudes, the fundamental lack of integrity and honor involved in his life long political opposition to the interests of the students he abused (and does anyone presume this stopped when Hastert was elected to the House?), are of course a part of the revulsion.

Hastert's politics are and have been odious, revolting, all on their own. When their odiousness is highlighted in this manner, one's revulsion increases. So?
 
Saying Hasbert was his first sexual contact is not him saying it is not abuse.
Nor does he claim Steve declared it as abuse either. STEVE does not say I was Raped. Steve says I am gay and my first sexual encounter was with Hastert.

BTW I havent read anything that says Hasbert was Steves teacher for any class. Hasbert was a teacher at the same school Steve was a student at.

There are many "gray areas" in this area of law, some regarding unspecific and untried legislation, others brought about by debates regarding changing societal attitudes, and others due to conflicts between federal and state laws. These factors all make age of consent an often confusing subject, and a topic of highly charged debates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

In both Canada and the Australian state of Queensland, the age of consent for anal sex is officially higher at 18 years, compared with 16 years for vaginal and oral sex.

Homophobes. So two 17 year old homosexuals gotta wait or else they are criminals. Forbidden love and all that.
 
Nor does he claim Steve declared it as abuse either. STEVE does not say I was Raped. Steve says I am gay and my first sexual encounter was with Hastert.
Which is rape.

Steve was a minor and Hastert an adult, and an adult in a position of authority and control over Steve.

BTW I havent read anything that says Hasbert was Steves teacher for any class. Hasbert was a teacher at the same school Steve was a student at.
That doesn't matter.

Hastert was in a position of direct authority over a pupil and student at the school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

In both Canada and the Australian state of Queensland, the age of consent for anal sex is officially higher at 18 years, compared with 16 years for vaginal and oral sex.

Homophobes. So two 17 year old homosexuals gotta wait or else they are criminals. Forbidden love and all that.
Nope. The law is there to protect minors from adults like Hastert.

The people who are pushing for changing or removing the laws of consent tend to be paedophiles, because they want to be able to have sex with children without legal repercussions. This isn't a grey area at all.
 
I doubt if any people are actively pushing hard to have the laws changed. Those bringing this up as a point of discussion however are probably doing it to point out the hypocrisy and the extreme nature of the punishment.

It's a good idea for teachers and students in high school not to be having sex with each other for various reason that all of us probably already agree with.

For a 17 year guy (who may already be having sex with a girlfriend) who somehow talks the attractive school nurse into fooling around it seems a bit harsh to convict her of rape and throw her into prison for 10 years or so.

Likewise, if a gay teacher and a gay student fool around it is not the best idea. There is probably an imbalance of power. If it's consensual rape seems a bit harsh as a charge.

The problem is that we go way overboard where sex (of any kind) comes up in the U.S.. We'll impeach a President over it even as half of the male population is engaging in similar behavior.

We should keep the laws but greatly reduce the stigma and penalties.

We should also reserve the phrase "child abuse" for the actual abuse of small children. To broaden the use reduces the effectiveness of the phrase where its use is more important.
 
The problem is that we go way overboard where sex (of any kind) comes up in the U.S.. We'll impeach a President over it even as half of the male population is engaging in similar behavior.
Who's "we"? It's the Dennis Hasterts of this world who do that kind of crap.

For a 17 year guy (who may already be having sex with a girlfriend) who somehow talks the attractive school nurse into fooling around it seems a bit harsh to convict her of rape and throw her into prison for 10 years or so.
How about 15, and the nurse did the "talking" - to that kid, and a dozen others like him over the years.

Likewise, if a gay teacher and a gay student fool around it is not the best idea. There is probably an imbalance of power. If it's consensual rape seems a bit harsh as a charge.
There is an imbalance of power - not "probably". There is an age of consent, for good reason. It's not consensual, below that age. There is no such thing as "consensual" when an adult maneuvers and grooms a youth into sexual availability - the kid doesn't know what's going on.

And there's always more than one kid.

Look at it from the parent's pov: you send your teenager to school, what legal protections do you want from the sexual impulses of the teachers in that school?
 
Seattle said:
I doubt if any people are actively pushing hard to have the laws changed. Those bringing this up as a point of discussion however are probably doing it to point out the hypocrisy and the extreme nature of the punishment.

Hypocrisy is too mild a term. Doing the best I can seeking whether or not Hastert committed a crime then, I can find nothing. Age of consent is in question, was it 16 or 17 at that time. We dont know for sure when the contact began or ended or if it was ongoing or limited. The sisters report is questionable and the friends indications are very limited.

"In effect, Hastert fell victim to blackmail, the indictment alleges: He “agreed to provide Individual A $3.5 million in order to compensate for and conceal his prior misconduct against Individual A.”
And this:
the prosecutor also considered additional charges against the former speaker tied to a second alleged victim, but decided against pursuing them.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/hastert-indicted/394391/

Because there wasnt enough evidence or was it the laws of that state didnt allow for prosecution via age of consent/teacher-student laws at the time?

The problem is that we go way overboard where sex (of any kind) comes up in the U.S.. We'll impeach a President over it even as half of the male population is engaging in similar behavior.

We should keep the laws but greatly reduce the stigma and penalties.

We should also reserve the phrase "child abuse" for the actual abuse of small children. To broaden the use reduces the effectiveness of the phrase where its use is more important.

And what exactly did the Clinton/Lewinski affair have to do with whitewater? $40 million dollars (investigation costs) to find out years after the Whitewater affair, Clinton got a blowjob... Hypocrisy is an understatement.

Stonewall riots is an interesting read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

notes from stonewall entry said:
Except for Illinois, which decriminalized sodomy in 1961, at the time of the Stonewall riots, every other state criminalized homosexual acts, even between consenting adults acting in private homes. "An adult convicted of the crime of having sex with another consenting adult in the privacy of his or her home could get anywhere from a light fine to five, ten, or twenty years—or even life—in prison. In 1971, twenty states had 'sex psychopath' laws that permitted the detaining of homosexuals for that reason alone. In Pennsylvania and California sex offenders could be committed to a psychiatric institution for life, and [in] seven states they could be castrated." (Carter, p. 15) Through the 1950s and 1960s, castration, emetics, hypnosis, electroshock therapy, and lobotomies were used by psychiatrists to try to "cure" homosexuals. (Katz, pp. 181–197.) (Adam, p. 60.)

Hastert would have been somewhere between 25 and 28 when this allegedly occurred. Around the same age as Steve was when he came out to his friend-sister. It was Not Easy having homosexual inclinations during that time period (well its never easy is it?). Hastert lived in a relatively small town and his High school grad class was a whopping 55 people. Cant imagine he had many people to lean on as his own sexuality blossomed. I find it interesting that he went to Steves funeral in 1995.

So who gives blackmailers power over people? And how much did this FBI investigation cost the taxpayers of the USA so far, using laws to investigate drug kingpins and racketeers? Its cost Hackert a bunch. All because he had (maybe still does) homosexual inclinations. Tsk tsk.
 
milkweed said:
Doing the best I can seeking whether or not Hastert committed a crime then, I can find nothing.
The currently reported testimony is that he had homosexual encounters with at least one boy "throughout his high school years".

milkweed said:
Age of consent is in question, was it 16 or 17 at that time.
It was probably 18 - that was the age of consent for homosexual encounters when they were first legalized in Illinois, in 1961. It was never 16, afaik, for male homosexual encounters.

milkweed said:
All because he had (maybe still does) homosexual inclinations. Tsk tsk.
For starters, it's because he screwed high school students while he was their coach and teacher. Parents - and that would be most of Hastert's supporters and business associates and so forth - do not take that kind of news well.

And it's because he spent his entire professional political career overtly and loudly and self-righteously helping to persecute, by law and by custom, gay men and women, for sexual behavior far less despicable than his own. That contrast between private behavior and public rhetoric is a particular concern of the demographic group that supported Hastert and gave him political power. They've been lied to, for years, and they do not like that.
 
Update: Hastert Sentencing Slated for 27 April

Because, you know, there's nothing like a morbid sex-and-money scandal to keep ... er ... ah ... right.

Anyway, via Associated Press↱:

A federal court transcript says that an alleged sex abuse victim could testify next month at former U.S. Speaker Dennis Hastert's sentencing in a hush-money case.

It's the first time that the court has referenced sex abuse in the case ....

.... The transcript, provided Wednesday to The Associated Press by the presiding judge's court reporter, recounts an unannounced hearing held earlier this week.

Prosecutors tell the judge that they recently learned an alleged victim, referred to as "Individual D," is deciding whether to testify at the April 27 sentencing.

The transcript also says that a sister of another alleged victim wants to testify.

And now you know.

Hey, the upshot is that sometime just over a month from now, we won't have to think about this damn case again.
____________________

Notes:

Associated Press. "The Latest: Alleged victim may testify at Hastert sentencing". The Big Story. 23 March 2016. BigStory.AP.org. 23 March 2016. http://apne.ws/25no7KJ
 
(sigh)


This is the update:

Justice Department prosecutors said Friday that former House speaker Dennis Hastert abused four young boys when he was their wrestling coach and urged that he be ordered to serve up to six months in prison when he’s sentenced later this month.

While Hastert has pleaded guilty to a financial violation, prosecutors said, “the actions at the core of this case took place not on the defendant’s national public stage but in his private one-on-one encounters in an empty locker room and a motel room with minors that violated the special trust between those young boys and their coach.”

For the first time, government lawyers said Hastert made payments to a man who was sexually abused at age 14 by Hastert when he was the boy’s wrestling coach.

Prosecutors said the abuse also involved “other minors,” and included touching their genitals or engaging in oral sex.


(Williams↱)

The six months requested by prosecutors is, according NBC News, the maximum sentence for the actual banking issue that brings him before the court. This is all we get for accountability from the disgraced former Speaker of the House. The former Republican Congressional avatar of integrity↱ presently faces a sentencing date on 27 April.
____________________

Notes:

Benen, Steve. "Prosecutors add crushing details to Hastert allegations". msnbc. 11 April 2016. msnbc.com. 11 April 2016. http://on.msnbc.com/22oAOQY

Williams, Pete. "Former House Speaker Hastert abused 4 boys: Prosecutors". msnbc. 8 April 2016. msnbc.com. 11 April 2016. http://on.msnbc.com/22j7Mm0
 
Wow...the judge sentenced Hastert today and called him a serial child molester. This is the man who was 2nd in line to become POTUS just 8 years ago. This is the Republican who led the House of Representatives for 8 years. Where were the investigative journalists? Where were the cops? Can you imagine a child molester POTUS? People should be very concerned. How could this happen?

Hastert is going to jail for 15 months. He shouldn't be sentenced to a country club prison.
 
Fifteen Months


This is what the American people get out of it: Former House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) has been sentenced to fifteen months in prison for lying to the FBI about payoffs to sex abuse survivors.

Before issuing his sentence, Judge Thomas M. Durkin pressed the former House Speaker on the details of his misconduct, asking Hastert directly if he sexually abused his victims. “Yes,” Hastert said, publicly acknowledging this for the first time. He added, “What I did was wrong and I regret it. They looked to me and I took advantage of them.”

In an additional gut-wrenching detail, one of these victims, Scott Cross, testified today that Hastert molested him when Cross was a teenager. Cross is the younger brother of former Illinois House Republican leader Tom Cross, who looked up to Hastert as a political mentor.

Hastert actually asked Tom Cross for a letter of support as part of his criminal case, despite the fact that Hastert molested his younger brother.

As part of this morning’s proceedings, the judge in the case explained, in reference to Hastert’s political career, “Sometimes actions can obliterate a lifetime of good works.” The judge referred to Hastert three times as a “serial child molester.”


(Benen↱)

The sentence does include a $250,000 fine and sex-offender rehabilitation.

For many, this still seems a petty token. For others, though, it seems far too harsh. Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) submitted a letter to the court, asking leniency for Mr. Hastert: "We all have our flaws, but Dennis Hastert has very few", DeLay wrote. "He doesn't deserve what he is going through."

Jason Meisner↱ reported last week that the court had received sixty letters supporting Hastert; Judge Durkin refused to consider the letters if they were not included in the public record, and "Nearly 20 writers did not wan their letters made public, or had requested their letters be 'withdrawn' from consideration". Mr. DeLay, perhaps, should have considered a similar action.

Mr. Hastert might not deserve what he is going through, but that is because he's getting better than he deserves. Well, by morals. By law, this is about all there is left for the people. And, you know, we ought not be surprised Republicans still think that's too much.

Benen summarizes a particular political implication:

As we discussed a few weeks ago, from 1998 to 2006, House Republicans suffered one ugly scandal after another. Democrats used the “culture of corruption” label to great effect because it was true―from Gingrich to Livingston, DeLay to Cunningham, Ney to Foley, the GOP’s House majority just couldn’t stay out of trouble.

But no matter how many scandals surrounded House Republicans, GOP officials pointed to the humble Speaker from Illinois as the squeaky clean leader, elevated to the post from relative obscurity because of his above-the-fray reputation.

This is actually an important point even beyond the mere politics of Democrat and Republican; the guy is a predatory sex offender, though as Tom DeLay said, "We all have our flaws, but Dennis Hastert has very few". Republicans apparently still need Mr. Hastert to be some manner of wholesome symbol.

Still, the obvious question persists. There was, for instance, a postal franking scandal. That was a disaster. Really. A genuinely morbidly stupid spectacle↱ that spanned decades. It's a scandal that includes the phrase "stamps for cash". In the end, questions of permissiveness about whether or not taxpayers should pay for certain mail sent by public officials, ranging from Christmas cards to campaign materials, eventually destroyed careers. But, you know, it's easy enough to see. Once it starts with Christmas cards, it's really easy to put that tax-funded postage stamp or, eventually, frank, on the piece. And, sure, you know, we all have our flaws. Fifty-five thousand dollars worth of postage? Yeah, that was pretty stupid.

Still, though, as flaws go, it really was a product of the times. It seems nearly emblematic that it could go so far and someone not recognize something amiss about it. You know, like expense reports and tax deductions. It's sketchy enough to turn that lunch into a business meeting, but I'm hard-pressed to find an occasion when writing off a trip to the strip club seems a good idea. Nonetheless, the pathway to Rostenkowski's stupidity can be found within the proposition of reducing direct overhead; if you could put that cost elsewhere, why would you not?

And now we know the answer to that question.

But, really, serial sex predation?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but that isn't something we generally write off as, "We all have our flaws".
____________________

Notes:

Benen, Steve. "After admitting sex crimes, former House Speaker headed to prison". msnbc. 27 April 2016. msnbc.com. 27 April 2016. http://on.msnbc.com/1YTVMXe

Congressional Quarterly. "Post Office Probe Hints at Larger Scandal". CQ Almanac 1992, 48th ed. 1993. Library.CQPress.com. 27 April 2016. http://bit.ly/26v0UXq

Meisner, Jason. "More than 40 letters in support of Hastert made public before sentencing". Chicago Tribune. 22 April 2016. ChicagoTribune.com. 27 April 2016. http://trib.in/236XyFK
 
How strange. I walked straight into that article the first time. I had no idea it was gated.

Edit: Google postage franking scandal. You'll see a link titled "Post Office Probe Hints at Larger Scandal", presently fourth down. I can still click that link and go straight into the article. If I reproduce it here or drop it straight into a blank tab, it hits the login screen.
 
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