The crackpots are pushing me away...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Math & Physics

Originally posted by chroot
Well, to be specific, you are wrong. If you could make a black box theory that can spit out the masses of all the known particles, you'd win a Nobel prize -- even if no one understood what was inside the box.- Warren

The obvious problem with this argument is that it amounts to saying if you could train a bunch of monkeys to randomly press keys, they'd eventually churn out the consitution of the united states. Yes, you'd win a lot more than a nobel prize if you could train monkeys this well, but I am trying to say that the fact that the model embodies anything related to 'masses of all the known particles' (for instance) then it must have gotten something right about the physical world??? You can't build a random number generator that produces the masses of all known particles, nor can you build any such black box (without having provided SOME physically interpretable mechanism into it). :bugeye:
 
Re: Dense

Originally posted by MacM
GundamWind,

Just call me dense but your quib lost me?

quote:

... the few exceptions might be Feynmann (or any other nobel prize winner), who earned the right to tell a story because they have a firm grasp of the underlying.

I just mean to say that Nobel Prize winners have a tendency to tell stories about their models. Something few other physicists would do with as much freedom.

But its irrelevant regardless. Ignore me. :m:
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Math & Physics

Originally posted by GundamWing
You can't build a random number generator that produces the masses of all known particles, nor can you build any such black box (without having provided SOME physically interpretable mechanism into it). :bugeye:
This sounds like abject speculation on your part.

- Warren
 
Originally posted by blobrana
Hey, i`m one of those crack-pots!

Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

I may as well add.
Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes.

i minored in classics.

the first one, well i don t know what suffodere means, something like subdue? i think the root, foedere, means decay.

"let false logic subdue your whole philosphy"

false logic has no power over me or my philosophy. i like to only use correct logic in my thinking. i m not sure what this quote is supposed to mean.

the second one:

"if you know how to read this, then you have too much education"

i don t agree. i don t have nearly enough education, and if i can somehow manage it, i will never leave school. there is just so much to know. it will take a lifetime to get it all.
 
From: "Dan K McCoin" <lmccoin@elp.rr.com>
To: <DKM>
Subject: Temp File
Date: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:31 PM

Imagine observing a large number of random games of checkers that were played very quickly on a computer screen. We might not be able to capture enough detail in our observations to deduce
the actual rules of the game as the pieces zip around the board at blinding speed, yet we might be able to draw up some elegant mathematical descriptions of average piece density over time at various locations on the board.

We might even be able to come up with equations that made accurate predictions about future average piece densities. In short, we might create a mathematical theory of checkers that seemed, at the gross scale of our observations, to reflect some features of the game.

And yet the reality of the nature of the game is found in the simple procedural rules governing possible moves, and not in our elegant and somewhat useful mathematical theories.

The question naturally arises as to whether mathematics is even the correct tool to describe physical processes at the quantum level. Yes, we have elegant mathematics that has a great deal of practical usefullness, but do those mathematical models bear any resemblance to the underlying reality? Is nature inherently mathematical? Or might nature, at the deepest levels,
be inherently procedural? If it is procedural, then mathematical models can never capture any more than a blurred, highly abstracted approximation to the behavior of the system under
investigation. A mathematical model would never be able to describe the underlying reality if the underlying reality is not, itself, mathematical in nature.

In my own field of aerodynamics we have approximately 2.6 bazillion equations that describe the behavior of various bodies in a moving fluid, but which bear no resemblence to, or make no reference to the underlying processes which consist largely of molecules bouncing around and trading kinetic energy with each other.

Now suppose that instead of molecules trading kinetic energy, which can be modelled mathematically, there is, at the heart of quarks and gluons, processes which might more accurately be modelled with some system of symbolic logic, or as some simple cellular automaton or Turing machine as opposed to a system of differential equations. In that case mathematics can certainly say things about the behavior of the system, but it cannot explain the system as
well as some other approach that is not "mathematical".

I guess what I'm getting at is that the most accurate aerodynamic simulation program that could be written would be one that dealt with the vectors for kinetic energy from molecule to molecule for billions of air molecules and would have no need for one single differential equation. At it's root simple vector arithmetic "explains" aerodynamics better than systems of differential equations, which are merely abstractions and approximations of the average glob of results of a whole glob of vector arithmetic operations.

My hunch is that "mother nature" doesn't know calculus, and accomplishes what she accomplishes by some process that is probably very different from mathematics as we generally think of it, and probably very much simpler too. In that case, computing a Schroedinger wave function make as much sense (or non-sense) as dancing a chemical reaction, or painting a piano concerto.

sounds like the thesis of s wolfram s new book, from what i know of it.

i dunno... call me conservative, but i like modern mathematics, real numbers, and calculus. i m bettin on that horse.
 
Originally posted by lethe
sounds like the thesis of s wolfram s new book, from what i know

Lethe, i've read as much pseudoscience as I can - I'm off for a break.

See you in a few months, perhaps,

Keep up the good fight,

Ron.
 
Re: Kidnapped

Originally posted by MacM
I just kidnapped the following post from another site because it was so timely to this discussion and it is by an engineer and makes more clear what I was trying to convey. So the problem is not just a media/lay problem. Engineers seem to hold my same view.
I think it's quite funny that you're the author of the post that supports your view, Dan K. McCoin.

- Warren
 
WARREN

Please check Physlink.Com.

Ever here of cut and paste?

Guess I should point out that my Word Pad doesn't cut and paste for the past 3 days but I copied it to my self via Outlook Express, saved it to a file I labled Temp File and then posted it here.

I only talk to myself after 10:00PM.
 
Escape Goat BS from a PHD

I am quite sure nobody here really cares to check this out but because certain PHD's that can't properly solve a (3) clock problem, like to cast enuendo. slander, double talk and pretend he is superior and his challenger is a without any standing (when most of what I have said is also supported by other PHD's by the way), I make available here the truth.

The post regarding the trend of physics to favor mathematical concepts over the study of physical reality was expressed by an aeronautical engineer here:

http://www.physlink.com

Under: Discussion Forum

Catagory Group: General Physics Discussion

Topic: "Is mathematics The Right Tool?"

By: fiziwig

02 - 18 - 2003 1:22 PM Original

02 - 18 - 2003 5:44 PM Follow up to message.


Surely you have something stronger than this Warren. Don't you think the thread has shifted just a bit from your initial assualt?

PS: To not piss people off again, since it has been brought to my attention that I don't deliver well, my reference to "pretend superior" does not infer that I think I am superior. I recognize the Warren is a very accomplished and educated person. Far more so than I. But I also know some things that he clearly doesn't want to know and attempt to avoid acknowledge it by any means.
 
Last edited:
1) Actually, MacM, I'm about to post a reply to your three-clock problem. It doesn't involve any "McCoin Paradox," unfortunately.

2) I'm not a PhD... not yet anyway.

3) Who cares what an aeronautical engineer says about physicists? How is anyone besides a physicist in a position to judge the work physicists do? If the plumber came to fix your toilet, you'd do well to resist the urge to tell him how to do it. None of these people really know what they're talking about. Besides, it's an opinion -- who cares what they think anyway? Let it go. Deep breath.

- Warren
 
chroot

Rest
chroot,

Resign not until you have resolved the 3 clock problem. Talk is cheap.

Conditions of the test:

One clock on earth v = 0; clock C

One clock at v = 0.2c in space; clock A

Once clock at v = 0.3c in space; clock B

Only linear velocity is tested for 10 hours time C.

Clocks are all started and stopped at the same instant. So that doesn't relate to any particular clock view. How that is achieved is of no signifigance. It is done by any means that achieves the goal. It is a stipulated conditions of the test.

Oh by the way should you actually find a way to Get C and A to agree as to the time loss between A and B; don't forget this time that ALL clocks include B and I want to see B also lose the correct amount of time A/B.

No return paths, no a/d

Do the computations and make the clocks all agree with every observers view of reality after the clocks are stopped and returned to earth to read elapsed time during the test.

When you do that and do that correctly then I will resign, not before.

When you say the conditions of the test are impossible then I will tell you that is why Relativity is an invalid view of physical reality.

Please post your respons under the UniKEF topic for I will not continue to rspond under somebodyelse's thread.

Oh by the way should you by some fluke actually get C and A to agree on a common time loss between a/B, don't forget this time that ALL clocks includes observer of clock B. I expect to see you make B agree on the A/B time loss.

Nobody has addressed that yet.

Good luck genius.

I believe it was you that made reference to an old saying that I should try to remember.

And you are satisified with Relativity, then I have an old saying for you to remember.

"Intelligence is knowing to believe only half of what you hear. Genius is knowing which half".


Edited by MacM on 02-20-03 at 07:15 PM
 
Moved

One at a time
chroot,

I will only address one at a time. Right now the shoe is on your foot.

KID. I wish, I suspect I am considerably your senior, junior.

Further I will not respond to further verbal assualts or put downs.
It is act like an intelligent adult or get ignored.

If you don't have the umph to resolve the 3 clock problem, that is not my problem.


All further communication for UniKEF and the 3 clock problem is moved out of the mainstream to not clutter the MSB. It may be found under topic "UniKEF". If he continues to post here be pissed at him not me.

Thank you.
 
MacM:

I've already explained your 3 clock problem. Which part didn't you understand?
 
Moved

James R.,

As you know my response have been moved to the topic UniKEF to stop cluttering up the board.

Thanks
 
Originally posted by spookz
eureka! i found the soul/spirit!

An electron is behaving much as we do when we react to a situation. To the extent that an electron responds to a meaning in its environment, it is "observing" its environment, gathering information, and responding accordingly. It behaves in strange ways, like being a wave and a particle at the same time and jumping from one state to another without passing in between - things that cannot be understood but only be calculated statistically. Thus, there is a common activity in which the electron participates and is guided by the quantum or information field.

The wave function thus becomes a kind of mental side of the particle, the information content determining its nature and activity.


thank you de broglie
thank you bohm
my wife
god

you forgot to thank the electron. :bugeye:
 
Aahhhhh, sciforums! Smell it, taste it, soak it up. This is the essance of it all, right here. Are you gone again chroot? BTW this was the last thread, I like saving the last thread :D
 
Originally posted by spookz
eureka! i found the soul/spirit!

An electron is behaving much as we do when we react to a situation. To the extent that an electron responds to a meaning in its environment, it is "observing" its environment, gathering information, and responding accordingly. It behaves in strange ways, like being a wave and a particle at the same time and jumping from one state to another without passing in between - things that cannot be understood but only be calculated statistically. Thus, there is a common activity in which the electron participates and is guided by the quantum or information field.

That shit sounds cool. Kinda hypnotic. (on a funny related note, the other day I saw this chick with a crazy shirt and huge tits and thought to myself "oh dude! hypnotits!". LOL.
Originally posted by spookz

The wave function thus becomes a kind of mental side of the particle, the information content determining its nature and activity.

Or is it simply a mirror of the current limitations of comprehension? It could be both I suppose if it turns out that the current wave function is actually perfectly descriptive of objective reality. It would probably even be accurate if the current theory is a valid approximation of whatever turns out to be 'truth'. I do however often ponder if some key pieces of the puzzle aren't missing, making an accurate model currently fundamentally impossible, though it still may be a valid approximation it's difficult to assess that without knowing if there are missing pieces. Quite the connudrum.
 
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