The Absurd

orthogonal

Registered Senior Member
I’ve recently finished re-reading Mortal Questions by the philosopher, Thomas Nagel. His chapter titled, “The Absurd” is especially fascinating inasmuch as he concludes that our life is indeed absurd, but not for the usual reasons given*.

He wastes little time in saying what many of us suspect is true:

”All of it (life) is an elaborate journey leading nowhere.”

It’s commonly said that life is absurd because we’re so small in relation to the universe. Voltaire, in fact, compared us to “...an insect on an atom of mud.”

”...we are tiny specks in the infinite vastness of the universe; our lives are mere instants even on a geological time scale, let alone a cosmic one; we will all be dead any minute.”

Nagel counters this complaint by suggesting that your life would be no less absurd even if your body were expanded to equal the dimensions of the universe. Likewise, if a short-lived absurdity were extended through all eternity it would become little more than an eternally absurdity. Meaning is independent of spatial dimensions or temporal longevity.

Short of suicide, perhaps the most common way to deal with the Absurd is to ignore it. Fill your daily life with so many tasks that you haven’t a moment left to wonder what it’s all about. “Lose yourself in your work” and switch on the radio in the car on the way home. When you fall exhausted onto the sofa in the evenings just as quickly switch on the television. The trick here is to avoid, at all costs, the prospect of ever having to sit quietly alone with your thoughts. But isn’t the hope that one might die without once having to come to terms with oneself only a lesser form of suicide?

”Given that the transcendental step is natural to us humans, can we avoid absurdity by refusing to take that step and remaining entirely within our sublunar lives? Well, we cannot refuse consciously, for to do that we would have to be aware of the viewpoint we were refusing to adopt. The only way to avoid the relevant self-consciousness would be never to attain it or to forget it - neither of which can be achieved by the will.”

The traditional attempt to banish absurdity had to do with giving ones life over to something greater than oneself.

”Those seeking to supply their lives with meaning...seek fulfillment in service to society, the state, the revolution, the progress of history, the advance of science, or religion and the glory of God.”

But this could only work if the thing greater than yourself to which you dedicate your life, itself has some ultimate meaning.

”If we can step back from the purposes of individual life and doubt their point, we can step back from the progress of human history, or of science, or the success of a society, or the kingdom, power, and the glory of God, and put all these things into question in the same way.”

If we can ask why our own life matters, we can just as easily ask why the existence of God matters. Religionists tell us that we are part of God’s plan; that our aim should be to please God. But what is it about his plan that matters? Of what ultimate import is it that God should feel pleased? Why does it matter that a God exists rather than Nothing? If there were a God, wouldn’t he/she/it also wonder why he/she/it exists? Why would God feel that his/her/its existence is no less absurd than is ours?

”I would argue that absurdity is one of the most human things about us: a manifestation of our most advanced and interesting characteristics. Like skepticism in epistemology, it is possible only because we possess a certain kind of insight - the capacity to transcend ourselves in thought....There does not appear to be any conceivable world (containing us) about which unsettlable doubts could not arise. Consequently, the absurdity of our situation derives not from a collision between our expectations and the world, but from a collision within ourselves.”

It appears that no possible world could satisfy man’s innate desire for an ultimate, unquestionable external meaning. Still:

”It is useless to mutter: ‘Life is meaningless; life is meaningless...’ as an accompaniment to everything we do. In continuing to live and work and strive, we take ourselves seriously in action no matter what we say.”

This is the essence of the Absurd, that what is so precious to us in this life counts for nothing beyond this life. What is precious is the present moment of our life. In his Meditations, the Roman emperor, Marcus Aurelius, noted that death takes from us only the present, for the past has ceased to be and the future is not yet come. Wittgenstein reminds us in his Tractus:

“...eternal life belongs to those who live in the present.”

Georg Hegel, remarking how we are apt to be at the same time everywhere and nowhere, said:

”...man is not what he is and is what he is not...”

Sartre would say that “man does not coincide with himself.” It’s not an easy thing to live in the present, which is to say that it is not an easy thing to live at all. Even as our hearts are a-beating, the instant of our present is easily misplaced. A life spent in running to catch up with the present, or in waiting for the present to catch up with our dreams is never really lived. To again quote Sartre:

”Reality alone is what counts, dreams, expectations, and hopes warrant no more than to define a man as a disappointed dream, as miscarried hopes, as vain expectations.”

When I lose my life I lose both everything and nothing. If my life had some ultimate meaning then my death would rate as a catastrophe of cosmic proportions. This is clearly not the case. The story of my life and death is more apt to be, figuratively speaking, a minor joke (and as jokes go, would lose something with each re-telling) rather than a cosmic catastrophe. Perhaps Jean De La Bruyere had a similar thought in mind when he wrote:

”Life is a tragedy for those who feel, and a comedy for those who think.”

Camus’ Sisyphus, “proletarian of the gods” is only a myth. We have neither been condemned to an eternal something nor an eternal nothing. Of the eternal Nothing, Wittgenstein said:

“Death is not an event in life: we do not live to experience death.”

We are briefly something, but it will never be the case that we are nothing. In his The Questions of Life, the Spanish philosopher, Fernando Savater wrote:

”If death is not-being we have already defeated it once, on the day we were born....Lucretius...in his philosophical poem On the Nature of the Universe speaks of mors aeterna, the eternal death of that which has never been and never will be. So we may well be mortal, but we have escaped eternal death. We have succeeded in stealing a chunk of time-the days, months, years during which we have been alive, each moment when we are still living-from that enormous death and, happen what may, the time will always be ours, time belonging to those who triumphed against death through being born-it will never belong to death, even if we must in the end die.”

We ought to congratulate each other for already having defeated mors aeterna. Until the end of time it will never be the case that you and I never were. We appeared, we’ll live and love for a time, and then we’ll melt away. I’m reminded that the graves of Roman Legionnaires, from Britain to the Middle-East, were commonly inscribed with the epitaph:

”Non fui, fui; nonsum, non curo.”
“I was not, I was; I am not, I don’t care.”


We would have felt no anguish whatsoever had we never appeared, so the fact that we have this small chance to be something rather than nothing should be a cause for a joyful curiosity rather than a heart-wrenching anguish. Thomas Nagel has written elsewhere:

”The only reason to fear death is if one survives it.”

We have no reason not to enjoy our life and no reason to fear our death. There is no greater task, no greater purpose and no greater meaning than that which I’m able to provide for myself. There is no vale of tears, no stain of original sin, and quite unlike the eternal task of Sisyphus; no rock to push up a mountain. As the Taoists would say:

“Nothing is done, yet nothing is left undone.”

The ultimate absurdity of my life is a welcome liberation from an otherwise certain despair of oppressive meaning.

Michael


* Unless otherwise noted, the quotes appearing in this post are taken from this chapter of Nagel’s book.
 
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Although I am familiar with Thomas Nagel (see quote below),
I have not had a chance to read any of his writings. I am
curious - have you read The Absurd Man by Camus?

"Our absurdity warrants neither that much distress nor
that much defiance. At the risk of falling into romanticism
by a different route, I would argue that absurdity is one
of the most human things about us: a manifestation of
our most advanced and interesting characteristics."
-Thomas Nagel
 
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I felt pleased that the discussion funneled in on death. If death did not exist would they have said anything different? So much is lost because the assumption has been and still is by most that death is inevitable.

From my personal philosophy I am not content to assume the inevitability of death. Anti-aging research, genetics, cryogenics, and other technologies offer hope that we have never had before.

I see my life as entirely pointless, or absurd, if you like, until I know it will not end. After that I will quite happily devise a meaning for myself, and hopefully multiple meanings that can be achieved in an eternity. But the only meaning I can conceive that is of relevance is the one that means something to me. If it also means something to someone else then I guess that is a bonus although I don’t particularly care.
 
What I see as the flaw with Absurdism is that it supposes that we're seperate from the rest of the universe. But we aren't seperate. We are the universe, observing itself, as Sagan would say.

And the universe is eternal. In an infinite amount of time, an infinite amount of permutations will take place. An infinite number of those permutations will lead to another me, in other circumstances, in the same circumstances, always existing and dying and existing and dying for eternity. I find more than enough comfort in this.

I never really empathized with the search for meaning. For me, "meaning" has always seemed to be just an opiate.
 
Orthogonal

”All of it (life) is an elaborate journey leading nowhere.”
I disagree that life is leading us nowhere. There are at least two destinations:

1) The biological imperatice to reproduce, for life to spread and continue.
2) The chance to build, create, learn, improve. We have the ability to learn, and teach, so as to make tomorrow better than yesterday. Why? Perhaps we can't even see an ultimate "why" yet. But perhaps those in the future will. And that is our responsibility.


The ancient Greeks used to have little chambers called psychomantiums. No sitting mindless before the TV for them! Those with one would sit in there now and then to meditate, commune with the spirits, get their brain in order.

It’s commonly said that life is absurd because we’re so small in relation to the universe. Voltaire, in fact, compared us to “...an insect on an atom of mud.”
For now, yes. But I hope in the future we will spread across the universe.

Short of suicide, perhaps the most common way to deal with the Absurd is to ignore it. Fill your daily life with so many tasks that you haven’t a moment left to wonder what it’s all about. “Lose yourself in your work” and switch on the radio in the car on the way home. When you fall exhausted onto the sofa in the evenings just as quickly switch on the television. The trick here is to avoid, at all costs, the prospect of ever having to sit quietly alone with your thoughts. But isn’t the hope that one might die without once having to come to terms with oneself only a lesser form of suicide?
Or accept it and move on. Realise that stuff I typed in red earlier, maybe work toward it, and try to get out of life without making it a worse place. Enjoy relaxing on the couch if you want, watching TV, letting the brain empty after a day of work, but realise that stuff, and hope you can get out of here without making the world a worse place.

The traditional attempt to banish absurdity had to do with giving ones life over to something greater than oneself.
It's a cop-out, a crutch, a way to deal with it without dealing with it.

It appears that no possible world could satisfy man’s innate desire for an ultimate, unquestionable external meaning.
I suggest that the important thing is not finding an answer, but seeking one.

This is the essence of the Absurd, that what is so precious to us in this life counts for nothing beyond this life.
Assuming we end completely at death, and assuming that we don't care what value our thoughts may have to those we leave behind.

”Life is a tragedy for those who feel, and a comedy for those who think.”
Sad but true. <- There's a joke in there.
 
Hello EvilPoet,

Thanks for the reply.
...have you read The Absurd Man by Camus?
If you're referring to his short article by that name, then yes, I've read it. In fact he says in that piece, "The absurd does not liberate; it binds." I obviously disagree with such an assessment.

Camus thinks the only coherent philosophical response to the absurdity of life is revolt. The idea of revolting against an unchangeable existential condition sounds a bit childish to me.

I work on top of a mountain in Vermont. I came to work today in the middle of a wicked Nor'easter. The snowmobile started to bog down in the snowdrifts above 3500 feet. I had to dig it out with a collapsible shovel. The only problem was that the shovel kept collapsing. I felt like screaming. But to stand alone on a mountain and scream at a snowstorm makes as much sense as Camus' Sisyphus shaking his fists at the gods that had consigned him to his endless task. Anyway, after a half-dozen times I gave up digging out the snowmachine. I put on my snowshoes and hiked the rest of the way to the hut.

EvilPoet, have you read any of Camus' novels?

Michael
 
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Adam and Orthogonal... I loved what you both had to say. I have come to similar conclusions. I love your whole post there ortho, and Adam's response was a nice compliment. I feel almost exactly the same plus some of the stuff Cris said in a different thread, uploading, infinite life via technology... blah blah.

I would say however, that it is shortsighted to assume there is a satisfactory answer to "what happens when I die", including "nothing". It would seem mostly likely given current understanding of the universe, but maybe, maybe not. I'll give you something I came up with to at least allow the possibility, though obviously I can only hypothesize:

What if the string theory people have it right to a great extent and you take it crazy as follows.

What if the universe has how ever many ever dimensions (I think there are multiple theories, each having a different number of dimensions) the theory you pick says. I believe this may be implied if you consider "thought" as one or many "dimensions". If you think about it, the 7th dimension looks flat to the 8th. Thought only exists in the present, that is like a derivative (in calculus terms) of the timeline or something.

Consciousness is energy. I can't back that up, but it is easy to think of like that, it's just not a form of energy that interacts with the physical world except through our bodies. I think of it as the integration of time. Conservation of energy is an omnipresent concept throughout phsyics. Where does the order of the consciousness system go when the brain stops? That energy (in terms describes above, not thermal units or the likes) has to go somewhere.

Maybe there are creatures who exist in the higher dimensions (a "soul" kind of creature if you will) and the brain, with it's incredible adaptation to nature, disregarding our limited interpretation of what is possible, creates a condition that forms a link that allows one of said creatures to temporarily interact with the four dimension above or below where it usually resides, returning to it's normal residence as released from its bond when the brain's created "soul allowing" condition is ceased.

Mind you, I know it's pretty damned far fetched but well, I believe that type of thinking is definately plausible within the scheme of current physics. Mind you, I'm not claiming that the details have much merit, but the ideas there I believe are representative of the types of things your arguments ignore. I might ignore it as well, but it amuses me not to. :) I have long thought "the journey's the thing".
 
If nothing else don't you think it's usefull to at least "hope" that there is some sort of afterlife? I mean what if it took that hope or the hard headed christian "there IS" an afterlife to springboard yourself to it? What if in the act of death, only the desperate want of said life can catapault you to it? I think if you don't think there is an afterlife, you are probably more intelligent than someone who thinks for sure that there is, but you've got a bad attitude because you assume that the evidence you have against it is heavy enough to be absolute. The truly curious route is to just follow the path and remain undecided. Come up with crazy theories and hope there's some goodness down the road!

Okay I'll shutup. I probably should run a poll to see who thinks I'm a crackhead. :)
 
Hi there Cris,

It's nice to talk with you again!
I see my life as entirely pointless, or absurd, if you like, until I know it will not end.
Absurdity, at least as I understand it, results not from my life being pointless, but from my life being invaluable to me and yet entirely without value to the external world. It's all the same to the universe whether I'm a happy man or a cloud of dust.

After that I will quite happily devise a meaning for myself, and hopefully multiple meanings that can be achieved in an eternity.
Cris, concepts such as "eternity," and "infinity" are purely mental constructs. I have found no evidence in nature of infinite processes. The mathematician, David Hilbert wrote:

"Nowhere is the infinite realized; it is neither present in nature nor admissible as a foundation in our rational thinking...The role that remains to the infinite is, rather, merely that of an Idea..."

In mathematics we routinely sum infinite series, we integrate functions over intervals that include infinity as limits. But the fact that we can manipulate a symbol on a piece of paper does not imply that anything in the universe is infinite. To jump to such a conclusion is to make a conceptual error not unlike those who imagine that because they can utter the word "God," that God must exist. This "ontological argument," a product of medieval scholastics, has been convincingly refuted.

The effort to give humans the option of extending our lives is commendable. However, I think the idea that a technological process could extend our lives through eternity is as unworkable as the idea that a Biblical Tower of Babel could rise up to heaven. We simply have no evidence that either "eternity" or "heaven" exists outside of our minds.

So, if we can't live for an eternity, would any finite length of time be long enough? I read in last month's Discover Magazine that for 99% of human existence the average life expectancy was 18 years. Mozart lived to age 35. His life was short by our standards, yet he died at nearly twice the average age of his ancestors. I'd like to live to be at least 100 years old. Of course, if other men lived to 1000 then I'd feel short-changed with only a hundred years. Similarly, if men typically lived to a million then I wouldn't be happy with only a thousand year life-span. But even if we could live a million years, that's still an eye-blink as compared with the 15 billion-year history of the universe. The fact is that no matter how long we live, as long as our life is finite in duration we'll eventually be faced with the prospect of death. And then consider what Marcus Aurelius said:

"...the longest lived and the shortest lived man, when they come to die, lose one and the same thing."

Michael
 
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Originally posted by Adam
I disagree that life is leading us nowhere. There are at least two destinations:

1) The biological imperatice to reproduce, for life to spread and continue.


Biological imperatives do not represent any meaning in themselves. They act only as a spur, perhaps to keep us going when we reach a final understanding of the finality of death. Biological imperatives can be conquered. People commit suicide. Some refuse to breed. We are capable of individually making rules for ourselves which allow us to ignore biological or social conditioning, if we are strong enough.

2) The chance to build, create, learn, improve. We have the ability to learn, and teach, so as to make tomorrow better than yesterday. Why? Perhaps we can't even see an ultimate "why" yet. But perhaps those in the future will. And that is our responsibility.

I have no evidence that it is our responsibility. This statement seems to indicate to me that you do not completely understand (or refuse to) the finality of death. You might say to me, "I will die with the satisfaction of knowing I have done something to improve the human race or it's chances". However, there is no satisfaction in death. No vantage point from which you can sit and say "See... here is what I achieved". You will be nothing, and you will not be remembered save perhaps by history, and then only as a caricature of what you might have been. Understanding death requires a complete understanding of the concept of Zero, or Nothing.

Or accept it and move on. Realise that stuff I typed in red earlier, maybe work toward it, and try to get out of life without making it a worse place. Enjoy relaxing on the couch if you want, watching TV, letting the brain empty after a day of work, but realise that stuff, ...

Acceptance is denial. Personally, I find comfort, happiness, and peace only lead to a death of a different sort. If I rage, if I fight, if I deny the validity of everything that is, I am re-affirming my knowledge that life is absurd. If I accept it, I reduce myself to something less. If I accept it, I am deciding that life itself is my master - and I will accept no master willingly.

I suggest that the important thing is not finding an answer, but seeking one.

Why? There are none. I find a dichotomy in myself, in that I am aware of the fact that there are no answers, and yet rage against that fact as if by doing so I will justify myself. while I am alive, I know that I have never willingly accepted a chain. when I die, I will be nothing. I see no purpose in seeking answers, nor do I see one in not seeking them. Some might see making an effort as a purpose in itself, whereas I do not. Neither attitude is "right". There is no "right", only what you will.

Your Will itself can be a chain, a reason for being. Some might take their own Will as a purpose, but such a purpose is false because you become nothing but your Will. Nothing but what you wish. Once this decision has been reached it becomes no longer necessary to define what your Will is, or how it came to be. You stop analysing. You keep from understanding.
 
Adam...
You are the perfect example of 100% successful social brainwashing. :)
2) The chance to build, create, learn, improve. We have the ability to learn, and teach, so as to make tomorrow better than yesterday. Why? Perhaps we can't even see an ultimate "why" yet. But perhaps those in the future will. And that is our responsibility.
I think the main thing absurdity teaches us is that we don't have any responsiblity. That is why it makes you feel good when you think about it.
Of course, it is better for everybody if majority of people are brainwashed with the idea that you have to leave something behind... Gosh.. it's even better if we create a heaven.. and hell.. somewhere where you go to depending if you are good or bad. That way it makes it just complete.

Cris:
You want to live forever? Very simple solution:
Tell yourself you are going to live forever... Even if you are shot and bleeding to death with nobody to help you, continue believing that you are going to live forever. You will _live_ forever. (As soon as you are dead, you will not think :) )

Eh.. maybe I should just go back to drinking my wine.. :)
 
Michael,


"If you're referring to his short article by that name, then yes, I've read it. In fact he says in that piece, "The absurd does not liberate; it binds." I obviously disagree with such an assessment."


Yes, that is the article that I was referring to. First I should say that I have no feelings one way or the other regarding absurdity. When I think of absurd the first thing that always comes to mind is theatre of. That said, I agree with the assesment but only to a certain degree. The absurd does bind - if you let it.

"Camus thinks the only coherent philosophical response to the absurdity of life is revolt. The idea of revolting against an unchangeable existential condition sounds a bit childish to me."

Ah yes, but what about what you did on the mountain? Did you not revolt by choosing to walk?

"...have you read any of Camus' novels?"

The only Camus I have read so far is The Myth of Sisyphus and Lyrical and Critical Essays. How about you?

Off topic question about your first post to this thread - is this quote “Nothing is done, yet nothing is left undone.” from the Tao Te Ching? It seems familiar but I can't seem to place it at the moment.
 
Marquis

Biological imperatives do not represent any meaning in themselves. They act only as a spur, perhaps to keep us going when we reach a final understanding of the finality of death. Biological imperatives can be conquered. People commit suicide. Some refuse to breed. We are capable of individually making rules for ourselves which allow us to ignore biological or social conditioning, if we are strong enough.
Well, I am not interested in semantic arguments about the meanings of the term "meaning".

I have no evidence that it is our responsibility. This statement seems to indicate to me that you do not completely understand (or refuse to) the finality of death. You might say to me, "I will die with the satisfaction of knowing I have done something to improve the human race or it's chances". However, there is no satisfaction in death. No vantage point from which you can sit and say "See... here is what I achieved". You will be nothing, and you will not be remembered save perhaps by history, and then only as a caricature of what you might have been. Understanding death requires a complete understanding of the concept of Zero, or Nothing.
No, you make assumptions. I may die with nothing; there may be nothing beyond that moment. However, I may live with the satisfaction of hoping I have improved the world just a little. If so, I can be content by the time I die.

Regarding responsbility. If you walk along the street and see a man trying to kid a woman to pieces with a knife, would you ignore it or intervene and kick the guy's arse? Biology and evolution created us as social animals. We live in societies, individuals co-operating and co-existing. Responsibility to others is hardwired into us through billions of years of life evolving on this planet. Some consider such biological imperatives bad things, to be overcome. I don't. They still offer the best chances for greatest production and achievement, the best chances for survival.

And please don't make the assumption that you understand death when others don't. That is pure arrogance.

Acceptance is denial.
I'd love to see you attempt to rationalise that one. Please do.

Acceptance is a choice, an act of free will, based on my philosophies.

Personally, I find comfort, happiness, and peace only lead to a death of a different sort. If I rage, if I fight, if I deny the validity of everything that is, I am re-affirming my knowledge that life is absurd. If I accept it, I reduce myself to something less. If I accept it, I am deciding that life itself is my master - and I will accept no master willingly.
Do you rage against the fact that you body needs oxygen and water? To you rage against the fact that you need food to survive? If so, you are an intellectual child. Useless rage with no purpose and no result is simply becoming a pathetic and pointless condition which serves no purpose. Accept and move on.

Why? There are none.
Then you have entirely missed the point of what I said. Go away and think about it for a while.
 
Re: ndrs

Originally posted by Adam
Please rationalise this statement.
2) The chance to build, create, learn, improve. We have the ability to learn, and teach, so as to make tomorrow better than yesterday. Why? Perhaps we can't even see an ultimate "why" yet. But perhaps those in the future will. And that is our responsibility.
I think the main thing absurdity teaches us is that we don't have any responsiblity. That is why it makes you feel good when you think about it.
Of course, it is better for everybody if majority of people are brainwashed with the idea that you have to leave something behind... Gosh.. it's even better if we create a heaven.. and hell.. somewhere where you go to depending if you are good or bad. That way it makes it just complete.
However, I may live with the satisfaction of hoping I have improved the world just a little. If so, I can be content by the time I die.
I can be content without the satisfaction of improving the world. Improving is again a relative term.. Improving may seem right for me, but I doubt it look right for you.
 
ndrs

I think the main thing absurdity teaches us is that we don't have any responsiblity. That is why it makes you feel good when you think about it.
Personally I find that the main emotion evoked by all such absurdist ramblings is despair.

Of course, it is better for everybody if majority of people are brainwashed with the idea that you have to leave something behind...
I think you have your teeth set so firmly in a bone of contention against a force that doesn't even know you exist that you are incapable seeing some basic realities.

1) Set yourself against whatever social mechanism you dislike, sure, but that mechanism is not aware you even exist.

2) Does the fact that two billion delusion idiots think we continue after death invalidate the idea? No it doesn't. The possibility exists. It is unproven of course. However, if your only reason for denying that possibility is that those people believe it, then you are the epitome of a brainwashed walking reflex.

Gosh.. it's even better if we create a heaven.. and hell.. somewhere where you go to depending if you are good or bad. That way it makes it just complete.
I don't believe in heaven or hell. Accepting the possibility that we may continue after death does not inherently mean acceptance of heaven, hell, or any religions. If you automatically assume it does, then this would be yet more evidence that you are a walking reflex.

I can be content without the satisfaction of improving the world.
Wow. I'm happy for you. But you would be going against biology/evolution. Again:

Regarding responsbility. If you walk along the street and see a man trying to kid a woman to pieces with a knife, would you ignore it or intervene and kick the guy's arse? Biology and evolution created us as social animals. We live in societies, individuals co-operating and co-existing. Responsibility to others is hardwired into us through billions of years of life evolving on this planet. Some consider such biological imperatives bad things, to be overcome. I don't. They still offer the best chances for greatest production and achievement, the best chances for survival.
We do in fact have very good reason for going along with the way biology and evolution made us. We have good reason to understand it and accept it as an act of free will.

Improving is again a relative term.. Improving may seem right for me, but I doubt it look right for you.
In many cases, yes indeed, it is relative. Until you can think further than your high school classes. There are some things which are inherently "good" to all life, such as continuance of one's own genetic code. Killing your own offspring is bad; keeping it alive is good. Why? That's how life works. Deny it all you want, but you are alive. And as I said, we are social creatures, and co-operation offers the best cahnces for survival.

You are the perfect example of 100% successful social brainwashing.
Again: Justify that statement. You have failed to do so thus far.
 
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