(split) Atheism and acceptance of science

[quadraphonics]

So a competing system that suppresses instinct by learning [which requires teaching by other learned genes functioning together as an organism, when they are not pushing you out of the nest] is a repair of that instinct?

What I said was it's a repair of the genes, as a whole. The resulting organism avoids the problems associated with simple instinct, while keeping the benefits.

But I suppose you could call that a repair of the instinct as well, if you wanted.

Ah so the genes are hedging their bets? How do they figure this out?

By reproducing more successfully than the genes that don't. You may have at some point encountered the term "natural selection?"

So its actually The Sensible and Cooperative Gene?

Only in situations where the selfish ends of the gene are served by sensible cooperation (whatever you consider that to be). In other settings the description would be rather brutal.

 

[S.A.M.]

What I said was it's a repair of the genes, as a whole. The resulting organism avoids the problems associated with simple instinct, while keeping the benefits.

But I suppose you could call that a repair of the instinct as well, if you wanted.

I was assuming its not all happening on the same gene, but repair of the instinct is also inadequate since the instinct is not modified just suppressed, selectively.

By reproducing more successfully than the genes that don't. You may have at some point encountered the term "natural selection?"

Yes, but its the first time I realised there was an executive decision behind it.

Only in situations where the selfish ends of the gene are served by sensible cooperation (whatever you consider that to be). In other settings the description would be rather brutal.

So its a dog eat dog world at the genetic level, and yet millions of them somehow manage to form so many unique organisms on a graduated level of organisation that is both sensitive and remarkably precise.

Hidden objects working at cross purposes indeed.

 

[Dub_]

Yes, but its the first time I realised there was an executive decision behind it.

For christ's sake, this is just too much. Have we not just been through this within the very hour!?

 

[S.A.M.]

You mean about ascribing motivations where none exist? Like saying "for christs sake"?

 

[spidergoat]

So its a dog eat dog world at the genetic level, and yet millions of them somehow manage to form so many unique organisms on a graduated level of organisation that is both sensitive and remarkably precise.

Congratulations, you're a Darwinist!

 

[Dub_]

You mean about ascribing motivations where none exist? Like saying "for christs sake"?

Christ himself is facepalming right now.

 

[S.A.M.]

Congratulations, you're a Darwinist!

I think you'll find Darwin was very careful to keep religion and didactic metaphors (as well as heuristic algorithms) out of it.

No lawyers in his Origin of Species.

Christ himself is facepalming right now.

Is that a didactic metaphor? Or a heuristic algorithm?

Here you might find these useful:

:runaway::facepalm::wallbang:

 

[spidergoat]

Can you explain what you mean by those terms?

Darwin needed to keep religion out of it for two reasons:
1. There is no place for religion in a scientific theory.
2. The prevailing opinions of the time prevented him from expressing his feelings even in a non-scientific contexts. He did feel that evolution replaced the role of God in creating life forms.

 

[S.A.M.]

Can you explain what you mean by those terms?

Darwin needed to keep religion out of it for two reasons:
1. There is no place for religion in a scientific theory.
2. The prevailing opinions of the time prevented him from expressing his feelings even in a non-scientific contexts. He did feel that evolution replaced the role of God in creating life forms.

Apparently Dawkins has no such reservations. Its all one and the same to him.

 

[Dub_]

Is that a didactic metaphor? Or a heuristic algorithm?

Who said anything about algorithms? Leave it to you to look up the wrong usage of the term heuristic.

 

[S.A.M.]

The algorithm is a didactic metaphor! I'm alluding to aphoristic discourse here, if you don't mind :bugeye:

Anyway, they make more sense in the absence of theoretical predictability:

Heuristic algorithms are often employed because they may be seen to "work" without having been mathematically proven to meet a given set of requirements

 

[Dub_]

:runaway:

 

[S.A.M.]

See? I told you it would be useful :itold:

 

[quadraphonics]

I was assuming its not all happening on the same gene,

It's all happening on the same genome.

I thought you were a biologist by profession? Why are you going to such lengths to misunderstand this stuff?

but repair of the instinct is also inadequate since the instinct is not modified just suppressed, selectively.

How is that "inadequate?" If selective suppression of an instinct improves fitness, what is lacking?

Yes, but its the first time I realised there was an executive decision behind it.

What executive?

And I thought you were a lifelong theist?

So its a dog eat dog world at the genetic level, and yet millions of them somehow manage to form so many unique organisms on a graduated level of organisation that is both sensitive and remarkably precise.

Yep. Pretty impressive, huh? It's kind of like geopolitics, in that way.

The kicker is that it takes a really long time.

 

[S.A.M.]

It's all happening on the same genome.

I thought you were a biologist by profession? Why are you going to such lengths to misunderstand this stuff?

So the effect of learning is across the genome? All of it? I see.

How is that "inadequate?" If selective suppression of an instinct improves fitness, what is lacking?

The fact that the instinct itself is not modified. It cannot be since acquired characteristics are not inherited.

The kicker is that it takes a really long time.

Yeah, infinity most probably. Except for all the learned stuff, that has to be relearned every single time.

 

[Dub_]

I thought you were a biologist by profession?

She has elsewhere identified herself as a "nutritionist," which I am charitably assuming as being close to a dietitian. I feel embarrassed for having to step forward to say this for her, but I think it's important that readers aren't misled into believing that a professional biologist would have such misguided beliefs about the theory in question -- something which she obviously has no qualms with.

 

[quadraphonics]

So the effect of learning is across the genome? All of it? I see.

"Across?"

The fact that the instinct itself is not modified. It cannot be since acquired characteristics are not inherited.

So?

The only thing you are demonstrating here is that you are either unable or unwilling to understand this stuff.

 

[S.A.M.]

She has elsewhere identified herself as a "nutritionist," which I am charitably assuming as being close to a dietitian. I feel embarrassed for having to step forward to say this for her, but I think it's important that readers aren't misled into believing that a professional biologist would have such misguided beliefs about the theory in question -- something which she obviously has no qualms with.

Think of it as a learning experience in didactic metaphors. No need to step in for me, I like to play around with my ideas.

 

[quadraphonics]

She has elsewhere identified herself as a "nutritionist," which I am charitably assuming as being close to a dietitian.

Ah. That explains a lot, actually: just enough familiarity to pretend understanding, but without any direct career stakes in getting it right.

 

[S.A.M.]

"Across?"

*deleted unnecessary hocus pocus*

Ah. That explains a lot, actually: just enough familiarity to pretend understanding, but without any direct career stakes in getting it right.

So?

The only thing you are demonstrating here is that you are either unable or unwilling to understand this stuff.

Got it all from reading popsci articles actually. Just a high school education. Actually work as a cook in a local charity. Barely speak English.

Now can we look at the concepts keeping in mind my low IQ and lack of education and training?