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Slave owners
- Thread starter Frisbinator
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Fraggle Rocker
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Can you name a country whose founders were not guilty of some despicable misdeed?Frisbinator said:Some of the founding fathers were slave owners. I am ashamed to live in a country where the founders owned slaves and you all should be too!
England. As the Roman Empire began to collapse and lose power over its colonies, the Angles and the Saxons sailed over from what is now Germany to seize prosperous, civilized, suddenly unprotected Britannia. But they didn't just take over the Romans' role as governors. They actually ran the Celtic Britons out of their own country, took over their homes, and turned it into "Angle Land."
Mexico. It's hard to decide who was worse. The conquistadores who burned the Aztec libraries and virtually obliterated one of the indigenous civilizations in the Americas -- or the Aztecs themselves, who delighted in human sacrifice.
Sweden. The exploits of the Vikings are legendary.
Israel. According to their own holy book the ancient Jews were such evil sinners that God has never stopped punishing their descendants.
There is not one person on Earth who does not have a few ancestors who were unforgiveably wicked. There is no spot of land on this Earth where something unspeakably evil has not been committed. There is no nation, church, or other human institution whose history is not sullied with shameful acts which, if brought to light, would demand that it be cast out of the circle of civilized humanity.
In other words, if we all are required to repent the sins of our forebears, we're going to be so busy repenting that we won't be able to get anything else done.
What matters is how we live, what we accomplish with what we've inherited. Can we let our lives be guided by such overwhelming pride, wisdom, love, and compassion, that those who suffered at the hands of our ancestors could look us in the eye and say, "You are good people. We cannot in conscience hold you responsible for things that were done before you were born. Go forth with your heads held high. You cannot change the past, but you can build a better future. No one needs to beg forgiveness for things they did not do, but they can earn praise for the things they do themselves."
Do not grieve for the past, my dear friend, but by all means learn its lessons. The future needs your attention and it is there that you will acquit yourself.
Of course nobody's perfect.
But that was the point. Nobody's perfect. We all have baggage.
ah, but is it random or delta-epsilon relationship?
There is no exact point on any scale.
You as an individual admire whoever it is you find admirable though you may like it or not.
How you find somebody admirable is by recognizing their characteristics, good and bad. The degree of baggage as well as the overall intentions and methods.
A person that saves a person's life while drowning, then turns around, and whips the slave.
Some might find that admirable.
Some might not.
A person that molests children. Then turns around, and admits he has been hurting others, and will dedicate his life to educating others about it.
Some might find that admirable.
Some might not.
You as an individual admire whoever it is you find admirable though you may like it or not.
How you find somebody admirable is by recognizing their characteristics, good and bad. The degree of baggage as well as the overall intentions and methods.
A person that saves a person's life while drowning, then turns around, and whips the slave.
Some might find that admirable.
Some might not.
A person that molests children. Then turns around, and admits he has been hurting others, and will dedicate his life to educating others about it.
Some might find that admirable.
Some might not.
RonVolk: "people can do things that are bad and still be admirable."
cool skill: "I wouldn't consider people that own slaves or do other things to hurt others too admirable."
Perhaps RonVolk does.
That was the topic we were dicussing correct?
What you seem to be doing Spyke, is giving examples that are not part of the topic.
Sure, just as he said" "people can do things that are bad and still be admirable." - If we are speaking in general out of the bounds of this thread.
But when it comes to the topic of this thread which is slavery, "people can do things that are bad and still be admirable." as in people can beat their slaves, and do other political, scientific, and progressive deeds.
Despite that, I wouldn't admire them because of they hurt other people.
cool skill: "I wouldn't consider people that own slaves or do other things to hurt others too admirable."
Perhaps RonVolk does.
That was the topic we were dicussing correct?
What you seem to be doing Spyke, is giving examples that are not part of the topic.
Sure, just as he said" "people can do things that are bad and still be admirable." - If we are speaking in general out of the bounds of this thread.
But when it comes to the topic of this thread which is slavery, "people can do things that are bad and still be admirable." as in people can beat their slaves, and do other political, scientific, and progressive deeds.
Despite that, I wouldn't admire them because of they hurt other people.
There is no exact point on any scale.
You as an individual admire whoever it is you find admirable though you may like it or not.
I agree with that, and would say that was my point with the 'random point on the scale' comment. We each find our own point. That's why it's random.
What you seem to be doing Spyke, is giving examples that are not part of the topic.
Sure, just as he said" "people can do things that are bad and still be admirable." - If we are speaking in general out of the bounds of this thread.
Well, I didn't realize we had to keep it focused solely on slave ownership when discussing flawed character, but ok, we'll keep it confined.
But when it comes to the topic of this thread which is slavery, "people can do things that are bad and still be admirable." as in people can beat their slaves, and do other political, scientific, and progressive deeds.
Despite that, I wouldn't admire them because of they hurt other people.
Which is your right. For my part, while I recognize the flaws and weaknesses of the 3 Virginians as slaveowners, I can also admire their courage and commitment in first taking the steps to rebel against the mother country, and second, in their dedication to building the republic. It's simply a matter of separating their personal lives from their public ones in judging their character.
Spyke:
How is slavery a matter of one's "personal life"? It's an economic decision, not a matter of personal preference.
Bourgouis sentimentality.
Slavery has existed since man's incept and will exist so long as we can coerce others to labor on our behalf.
The "I'm ashamed!" posturing is pathetic. Be ashamed of your democracy - the Greeks were a slaveholding people. Be ashamed of your cartography - the Vikings were as well. Our entire civilization is founded on oppression.
Furthermore, it's ridiculous to see such sentiment from people who are, in every liklihood, wearing the products of child slavery. The labor that goes into making your Nikes is likely just as heinous as that which eighteenth century slaves endured.
It's simply a matter of separating their personal lives from their public ones in judging their character.
How is slavery a matter of one's "personal life"? It's an economic decision, not a matter of personal preference.
What matters is how we live, what we accomplish with what we've inherited. Can we let our lives be guided by such overwhelming pride, wisdom, love, and compassion, that those who suffered at the hands of our ancestors could look us in the eye and say, "You are good people. We cannot in conscience hold you responsible for things that were done before you were born. Go forth with your heads held high. You cannot change the past, but you can build a better future. No one needs to beg forgiveness for things they did not do, but they can earn praise for the things they do themselves."
Bourgouis sentimentality.
Slavery has existed since man's incept and will exist so long as we can coerce others to labor on our behalf.
The "I'm ashamed!" posturing is pathetic. Be ashamed of your democracy - the Greeks were a slaveholding people. Be ashamed of your cartography - the Vikings were as well. Our entire civilization is founded on oppression.
Furthermore, it's ridiculous to see such sentiment from people who are, in every liklihood, wearing the products of child slavery. The labor that goes into making your Nikes is likely just as heinous as that which eighteenth century slaves endured.
Screw them. There is no seperating personal and public lives in that sense.Spyke said:I can also admire their courage and commitment in first taking the steps to rebel against the mother country, and second, in their dedication to building the republic. It's simply a matter of separating their personal lives from their public ones in judging their character.
What you do to yourself in your own privacy that nobody knows about, and doesn't hurt others is 'personal'.
What you do to other people with chains and whips is 'not personal'.
Sure they overcame great odds in order to declare free themselves from British rule, but that doesn' mean that they are not a bunch of sick nutcases that would put humans in shackles to do their labor.
"It was considered personal. Was. Slaves were considered personal property."
Kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people over a several hundred year period and exploiting them for a labor product worth billions is quite far from personal, if for no reason other than the sheer scale involved.
Kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people over a several hundred year period and exploiting them for a labor product worth billions is quite far from personal, if for no reason other than the sheer scale involved.
No, it's called the "peculiar institution" for a reason. Everyone, from governments to business owners, was involved in slavery (in this context, the exploitation of Africans)
A person who participates in such an action is not acting privately, they are acting collectively.
A person who participates in such an action is not acting privately, they are acting collectively.
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Are you insane?jinchilla said:It was considered personal. Was. Slaves were considered personal property.
Considered by whom?
The slaves?
Who's perceptions?jinchilla said:perceptions were different then.
The slave driver's?
Of course, the profited off of those perceptions.
I am insane but, that's another matter. :bugeye:
The perceptions of those refered to in the initial post of this thread is what i was "talking" about. You own your pets? Talk to PETA. You coexist with them and are responsible for their dependency.
I'm not saying slavery was "right" by my definition. Jesus, you people take observations as if they were firmly held personal beliefs.
Oh, hell. There's no point in not declaring slavery is right! You can't refute it. You can argue all day long based on your personal convictions though.
The perceptions of those refered to in the initial post of this thread is what i was "talking" about. You own your pets? Talk to PETA. You coexist with them and are responsible for their dependency.
I'm not saying slavery was "right" by my definition. Jesus, you people take observations as if they were firmly held personal beliefs.
Oh, hell. There's no point in not declaring slavery is right! You can't refute it. You can argue all day long based on your personal convictions though.
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