Should men have a say in abortion ?

sideshowbob said:
I'd have to disagree. I don't believe in forced vaccinations.
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I have no problem with people who shun vaccinations, as long as they are not allowed in public. People living in the mountains as hermits? No worries. People walking around putting immunocompromised children at risk of disease and death? Not acceptable.
 
billvon said:
I have no problem with people who shun vaccinations, as long as they are not allowed in public. People living in the mountains as hermits? No worries. People walking around putting immunocompromised children at risk of disease and death? Not acceptable.
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I have no problem with restricting privileges - e.g. you can't drive without a license, you can't send your children to a public school unvaccinated. But that's a different thing from not allowing people to "walk around unvaccinated".
 
sideshowbob said:
I have no problem with restricting privileges - e.g. you can't drive without a license, you can't send your children to a public school unvaccinated. But that's a different thing from not allowing people to "walk around unvaccinated".
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You can't drive drunk (or without a license) because you put other people on the road at risk. You can't walk around unvaccinated in the general public because you put other people in the public at risk.

Keeping unvaccinated kids out of school works to some degree, because that reduces their exposure to other kids. But it's not perfect, as the skyrocketing rates of measles demonstrates.
 
billvon said:
I have no problem with people who shun vaccinations, as long as they are not allowed in public. People living in the mountains as hermits? No worries. People walking around putting immunocompromised children at risk of disease and death? Not acceptable.
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denying children human rights

preventing their children from being vaccinated ...
state sanctioned ?
state sanctioned denial of human rights for children... while Alabama do what with abortion laws ?

sideshowbob said:
I don't believe in forced vaccinations.
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how do the baby's fill out the vaccination forms ?
 
billvon said:
Keeping unvaccinated kids out of school works to some degree, because that reduces their exposure to other kids. But it's not perfect, as the skyrocketing rates of measles demonstrates.
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So, do you advocate forced vaccination?
 
What would you ^^ propose if someone refuses to be vaccinated?
 
sideshowbob said:
Education.
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How?

The reason I ask is because anti-vaxxers are conspiracy driven people.. Who have, for nearly 2 decades now, refused to accept science or education around vaccines.

Education programs have failed. Proven scientific experiments, have failed to sway them.

They still believe the MMR vaccine causes autism, despite all evidence to the contrary.

The US is in the middle of a measles epidemic. And they still refuse to vaccinate.

So how would you educate them? Look at the family in Oregon, whose child fell, cut his head open and being the good anti-vaxxer parents, they cleaned the wound, and sutured it themselves instead of taking him to a hospital or to a doctor. 6 days later, the child's jaw locked up, he started having spasms and they had to call the paramedics. The child was then airlifted to a hospital, spent 47 days in the ICU, in a dark room, on a ventilator, with ear plugs in his ears to reduce stimulation and in pain.. Why? Because he contracted tetanus. As part of his treatment, the parents had to agree for him to receive a tetanus shot. The treating physicians then drew up a schedule for him to be vaccinated to bring him up to date, including the second booster shot for tetanus. Despite their child's horrific brush with death from the disease, they still refused to vaccinate him upon release and they also refused the second tetanus shot.

So how do you think those parents could be educated?

Personally, parents are free to refuse to vaccinate their kids. But they should get their kids out of schools, daycare, colleges, etc, because they pose such a risk to everyone else, particularly those who cannot be vaccinated for health reasons..

In other words, people are free to not vaccinate. But we are also free to shun those who refuse to vaccinate for our own safety. And in cases like the Oregon family, they should be charged with child endangerment and child abuse. Because their actions are deliberate.
 
sideshowbob said:
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said that democracy doesn't set abortion aside and treat it differently from every other issue.
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thats not what you said
this is what you said
sideshowbob said:
That's a comment on democracy in general. You can't expect democracy to work differently for one issue - e.g. abortion.
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which is you turning my comment into something different and then asking me to align with your proposition of what democracy is to signal support for the opposing side of my comment.
thats a bit manipulative really.
unless its just your own baggage , in which case your welcome to it.

usurping democracy as a battle cry to seek conformist communist indoctrinated mentality into a false model of democracy is not greek democracy.
notice my comment about
"putting it to the people"
and my comment relating to the "Greek" version of democracy.

ironically though back then women were not allowed to have a say in leadership
a few thousand years later and that same mental disability is taught as intellectual superiority... still

i dont see it any different from attempting to argue pro slavery.

mediocrity of the right christian conservatives to appease a male dominated world is not a semblance of secular democratic model.
it is an autocratic dictatorship of a minority over a populace.
were they in the senate for their intellectual qualifications, then it might be a bit closer to the original Greek intention of democracy.
but they are not
they are school yard bullys elected for their ability to talk shit to the camera.
the American individual has sold their rights out to the communist bully boy parading as a capitalist ideologist so the christian consevatist communist dictator can run the show
UN-opposed in a misogynistic religious dictatorship which is run as an autocracy to appease the corporate psychopath so it doesn't have to be accountable for the welfare of its own people.
that is why there is no universal health care in the usa
because the state is deemed to be not accountable to the welfare of the people
politicians argue to try and make federal laws and rules to remove state accountability to its own people.
the anti-abortion law is them twisting that to the opposite end to serve their own mysoginistic dictatorship so the state owns the rights to womens bodys, while also being allowed to not care about its own people.
thats pretty fucked up really
but many right wing Christians think they are super cool morally orientated democratic people.
WRONG !
and they certainly are not democrats !even though they vote republican.
 
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wegs said:
What would you ^^ propose if someone refuses to be vaccinated?
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how does a baby refuse a vaccination ?

i notice the boys want to avoid the subject because they cant balance their moral argument against the supposed rights if any a baby has
do babys have any rights in the usa ?

does the anti abortion law now make it illegal for a pregnant women to get a vaccination as the baby has not signed an agreement for it ?
does the state own that right to accept or refuse pregnant vaccinations ?
what about life risking surgery
does a pregnant women still have the right to choose that surgery even though it may risk the life of the baby ?

blood transfusions for pregnant women ?

https://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancy-concerns/blood-transfusions-during-pregnancy/
A blood transfusion is a frequently performed procedure where you receive blood through an intravenous (IV) line into one of your blood vessels. Receiving a blood transfusion while pregnant is not something most women want to think about. However, there are two conditions that may warrant a blood transfusion during pregnancy.
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what if the pregnant women refuses treatment ?
What are the Reasons to Have a Blood Transfusion During Pregnancy?

There are two primary reasons you may need a blood transfusion while pregnant. These include the development of severe anemia close to your due date, or hemorrhaging at some point during your pregnancy.


You can find more information on both below:


Iron-Deficient Anemia

Once a hemoglobin estimate has been performed, a medical professional can diagnose the extent of your anemia. For patients diagnosed with severe anemia, it is important to determine the causes and best course of treatment.


While it may be difficult to pinpoint exact causes of anemia, particularly if a combination of factors has resulted in anemia, sometimes the frequency of anemia in a given region may give a clue as to its cause. For instance, in areas where malaria is common, the course of treatment will be tailored to take into account the possibility of malaria. Your doctor will prescribe antimalarials possibly in combination with another treatment.
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what religions refuse blood transfusions for their pregnant women ?
now they cant ?
on what grounds ?
religion ?
is that pro or anti religion ?
anti-blood-women/men

Blood Transfusions During Pregnancy: Final Notes
If you’re asked to undergo a blood transfusion, make sure to get a full understanding of all of the options available to you. If it is an emergency situation, a doctor will likely make an educated decision for you. You can decline a blood transfusion or change your mind about receiving one at any time, but be aware that under some circumstances a blood transfusion may be the only way to keep you alive. If you have any questions about your options or concerns about the safety of blood transfusions, you can ask your doctor or midwife.
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