Rockefeller, a good robber baron

[Peregrine]

Agreed, history shows us that monopolies are not benevolent enterprises and they act in very predictable ways. They maximize profit at the expense of workers and consumers and they resist change. For the monopolist, it is a good as it gets so why change?

This basically boils down to the latest move in libertarian circles to idolize robber barons which is kind of ironic. Libertarians are supposed to be supporters of free market competition. Monopolists are the antithesis of free market competition and the ultimate outcome of unregulated markets.

This is preceisely my point.

I do think it is worth it. I do think a free market is beneficial.

You are forgetting that people can get very pissed off at a monopolist and kill him. That is a factor in a free market.

Your last statement of "monopolists are the antithesis..." I disagree with that statement. A monopoly is only a monopoly for the time that it is. Sure it may be 50 years, but at some point, someone figures something out that is better than what previously exists.

In free markets, consumers rely on consumer protection groups, such as Consumer Reports.

Anyways, I hope we can shift the discussion.

 

[joepistole]

You are forgetting that people can get very pissed off at a monopolist and kill him. That is a factor in a free market.

Well I don’t know about kill, but they destroy the monopoly. The unregulated monopoly is ultimately an unstable institution because at some point the abuses come home to roost (e.g. unions, antitrust legislation, etc.). Monopolies have historically led to economic and social disruptions.

Your last statement of "monopolists are the antithesis..." I disagree with that statement. A monopoly is only a monopoly for the time that it is. Sure it may be 50 years, but at some point, someone figures something out that is better than what previously exists.

While the monopoly exists, it is the antithesis of free market competition by definition. If markets were free and competitive, there wouldn’t be a monopoly. Monopolized markets are not free and not competitive. But as previously mentioned there are instances where monopolies make sense (e.g. public utilities) with appropriate oversight and regulation.

In free markets, consumers rely on consumer protection groups, such as Consumer Reports.

And government regulation.

 

[Billy T]

LOL. You have been repeatedly challenged in that thread to support your claim and allegations that the Fed told Germany it would have to wait 5-7 years, depending on your post, in order to get it's gold on deposit at the New York Fed back.

No need to as your lying. I never stated that the Fed said that. Admit your lying or give link to post where I said that. I did quote two independent sources, which you say are not "creditable," as saying that IN CONTRAST, YOU MORE THAN 16 TIMES HAVE REFUSED TO PRODUCE THE BLOOMBERG LINK YOU CLAIMED TO QUOTE.

You went on to speculate the reason the Fed is delaying - something you have not proved- returning Germany's gold is because the Fed didn't have it.

Yes I did speculate that IF the Fed had unencumbered gold (not lent to others) then four C-17s, of which the US has 223, could deliver all 300 tons of the Germany gold back to Frankfurt in less than 12 hours. (It is only a seven hour flight, including the takeoff & landing times.) There must be some reason why Germany has had to wait nearly a year now after asking for its gold back. I also asked you to speculate why the US is stalling.

You went on to say the Fed had not audited its gold reserves for decades...which again was not true. The Fed just wrapped up a gold audit last year.

Another lie. I said that I did not know if the fox had audited the hen house or not. I, Ron Paul, and everyone informed, including even the Fed its self, knows that the last audit that even had outsiders participating, was six decades ago in 1950.

When members of Germany's audit committee came (twice) to NYC the were the first time not even taken to the vault. The second visit they did get to look thru an open door, but were not allowed to touch one ounce of gold. I.e. They could not state or confirm it was anything other than hollow thin-walled gold bricks for show.

The bottom line here is you have yet to produce a single credible source to support ... that the Fed is not returning Germany's gold immediately because it doesn't have Germany's gold. ...

Typically you don't give link to your source, but I always do. I gave two, you none. Two are more creditable than none. Since were in this thread, I'll join Dinosaur in asking you for some support for your claim JD raised the price of kerosene. It has been demonstrated then he dropped the price by about a factor of three.

 

[joepistole]

No need to as your lying. I never stated that the Fed said that. I did quote two independent sources, which you say are not "creditable," as saying that.Yes I did speculate that as if the Fed had unencumbered gold (not lent to others) then four C-17s, of which the US has 223, could deliver all 300 tons of the Germany gold back to Frankfurt in less than 12 hours. (It is only a seven hour flight, including the takeoff & landing times.) There must be some reason why Germany has had to wait nearly a year now after asking for its gold back. I asked you to speculate why the US is stalling. Another lie. I said that I did not know if the fox had audited the hen house or not. I, Ron Paul and every one informed knows that the last audit that even had outsiders participating, was six decades ago in 1950. When members of Germany's audit committee came to (twice) to NYC the were the first time not even taken to the vault. The second visit they did get to look thru an open door, but were not allowed to touch one ounce of gold. I.e. They could not state or confirm it was anything other than hollow thin-walled gold bricks for show.
The bottom line here is you have yet to produce a single credible source to support your bizarre conspiracy claims that the Fed is not returning Germany's gold immediately because it doesn't have Germany's gold. You have no credible proof the Fed told Germany it couldn't get its gold on deposit back immediately or even that Germany demanded it back immediately.

One credible source to back up your conspiracy claims Billy T, and unfortunately for you your words speak for themselves. And unfortunately for you conspiracy web sites are only credible to conspiracy nuts. There is no indication that the Fed doesn't have Germany's gold. There is no credible evidence the Fed told Germany it would have to wait to get its gold deposits back. There isn't even evidence Germany asked for all of its gold back immediately.

 

[Billy T]

... Monopolies have historically led to economic and social disruptions.

Certainly that is the POV of horse and buggy industry. I. e. JD and his Esso etc and cars were very big "social disruptions." Please support your claim another historic example.

You will need to explain to me why stating the FACT that Germany asked for it Gold back nearly a year ago is a "conspiracy claim" - It is just as statement of FACT.
I have documented in great detail in another thread that all 300 tons of Germany's gold could be flown to Frankfurt with about four (<2% of the US's 223 ) C-17s in less than 12 hours.
See http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...e-worse-news&p=3143609&viewfull=1#post3143609 and prior post 653 plus 658 also. Here is part of that post 654:

Four of these 12 could be to going Frankfurt instead with one KC 137 refueling for practice.
The C-17 makes the NYC to Frankfurt trip in less than 7 hours, including take-off and landing time. They can carry more than 160,000 pounds for these short trips, but lets say they only take 80 tons per trip. 300 tons / 80 tons per trip is less than four trips so each carries 75 tons and uses less fuel.
I. e. There is some other reason why German can't get it gold back NOW. . . Can you guess what it is?
My guess: (and that of many others) is US either does not have their gold** (why no Congressional audit was allowed) or has lent the gold out long term for income.

SUMMARY:
LIKE USUSAL , JOE POSTS HIS BULL SHIT AND CLAIMS TO BE QUOTING RELIABLE SOURCE, LIKE BLOOMBERG, but even after ~15 requests for link to it, all you get is: "LOL"

 

[joepistole]

Certainly that is the POV of horse and buggy industry. I. e. JD and his Esso etc and cars were very big "social disruptions." Please support your claim another historic example.

You will need to explain to me why stating the FACT that Germany asked for it Gold back nearly a year ago is a "conspiracy claim" - It is just as statement of FACT.
I have documented in great detail in another thread that all 300 tons of Germany's gold could be flown to Frankfurt with about four (<2% of the US's 223 ) C-17s in less than 12 hours.
See http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...e-worse-news&p=3143609&viewfull=1#post3143609 and prior post 653 plus 658 also. Here is part of that post 654:

Unless and until you can provide credible proof of your claims about the Federal Reserve, its gold deposits and Germany, this is a dead issue. Stalking me around Sciforums, reposting your material ad nauseum, and trying to revise your previous posts, isn't' going to change things.