Oh, I don't think religion is the source of morality ....I think religions have been the most effective proponent and carrier of morality.
Baron Max
Religion is stupid
- Thread starter Mr. Hamtastic
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Oh, I don't think religion is the source of morality ....I think religions have been the most effective proponent and carrier of morality.
Baron Max
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
So religion is no more important in this regard than... a well organized PR campaign?
No, more important than that because in the early days of human civilizations, the church was often the only form of teaching and training and dispensing of morals that the people had. The church kept those morals alive until civilizations could form .......cops and robbers, wars and enemies, death and destruction, weapons and torture racks, ....., and all those nice, enjoyable human things that makes life more fun than just toiling in the soil.
Baron Max
"The church?" Please define "the church" in this context. While it is true there is evidence of cult ritual at pre- and proto-civilization stages, there is no evidence that they established or enforced morals to any degree greater than secular elites, clans, family, etc. Indeed, there is much indication that the "morals" of early cult practitioners was far from the morals we would accept in modern human societies. Morality is relevant, after all.
So what evidence are you drawing your assertions from and how do you define "the church?"
I would defend religion as the source of morality. What a person/group/culture believe about the ultimate nature of reality will define their moral code. Their gods will be symbolic of their values, and therefore their morality.
Take the Norse gods headed by Odin, the one eyed Father of the gods, who rode an 8 legged war horse called Sleipnir. Valhalla (heaven) was reserved for warriors who died in battle. As a consequence, the Vikings were a very war-like people, who valued courage, honour, strength and cunning above all else.
Contrast that with the Native American gods - often animals e.g. Raven, Coyote etc. As a result, they have a huge respect for nature. They show great reverence for all animals, speak to them, placate them, consult them. Animals have huge supernatural power in their culture, and as a result they live in balance with their environment.
Our culture's moral code is based largely on the Ten Commandments, and we value humility, generosity, helping the poor etc. (what Neitzsche called slave morality). These come directly from biblical sayings, stories, parables e.g. the good Samaritan. Our cultural roots are (broadly) Christian, and so are our values and morality. Unlike the Vikings, we go to war reluctantly.
“ Originally Posted by spidergoat
I feel the same way. So what's with all the talk I hear about religion being the source of morality? ”
Religions have been the most effective proponent and carrier of immorality.
I feel the same way. So what's with all the talk I hear about religion being the source of morality? ”
Religions have been the most effective proponent and carrier of immorality.
What 10 commandments???
WHO values humility, generosity, helping the poor???
Finding those in The Holy Babble is like finding a needle in a barn full of hay.
Our cultural roots are many, of which a small part is Christian.
Good values & morality do not come from Christianity.
We go to war far too eagerly.
Christianity has been the dominant religion of anglophone nations since the Synod of Whitby in 664 CE (at least until recently). It's bound to have some influence on how we all think. Atheism and multiculturalism are quite recent.
However, don't take it from me. You might like to read (strong atheist) Neitzsche's "On the Geneology of Morals" where he traces our current (Christian based) moral values back to their roots in slave culture, where they supplanted the more virile (master morality) values of Rome and Greece. He would have disagreed with you about our current morality being 'good'.
I'm confused - are you saying that our culture doesn't value traits like humility, generosity and helping the poor as 'virtues', or that these don't originate from the Bible?
If the former, do you consider the lack of the above traits are insults i.e. being 'up yourself', or 'tight fisted' or 'exploitative'?
If the latter, I could start quoting huge chunks of Bible at you, but I hesitate to do so... Oh OK then, just a few quotes, if you insist!!
Job 40:12 said:
1Samuel 2:3 said:
... enough from the good book for one post? By the way the 10 Commandments are in Exodus 20!"Deutoronomy 15:7" said:
I agree, we do still go to war far too eagerly - but my point is - that sentiment would not occur to a Viking!
Since this is a religous based area of this whole sci. forum thingy, I just want to mention something to consider, or whatever. Without getting all envolved in scripture because some people just don't understand that concept. Religion is this, mans reconition of mans relationship with God and the expression of that relation in faith, worship, and conduct; maybe correct or not. Biblical religion primarily a thing of the heart and life rather than ritual.
If that were the case, then why would there be religions that exclude your god? (I'm assuming when you say "God," that you're referring to the "god of Abraham," a.k.a. Yahweh).
For instance, aboriginal cultures in North, South and Central America have religions in which nothing that even resembles your god exist. The peoples of Polynesia, Africa, India, and many Asian cultures also have religions in which the Christian god isn't a part. So, when you capitalize the "g" and call it "God," what you're really saying is Yahweh and that "my cult is better than yours even though it is but a minor blip in the history of religious thought, belief and cultural evolution of humanity."
Religion goes horribly wrong when it gets into that 'my God/gods true, and yours is not' stuff. Unfortunately, much of the Biblical Old Testament (and even some of the New) seems to be on that level, with justifications for butchering Amorites, killing worshipers of Baal or whatever. I suppose it's a tribal history, warts and all.
Without denying our own culture and beliefs, we can learn a lot from so called 'primitive cultures'. "Nothing that is human is alien to me".
What I understand in Will.T's post, is he's saying that faith is about relationship and our deepest self - not about rituals and practices etc.
What I do know for certian that there is one God. I capitalize my God as for the respect thing. I do know that there was only one god to begin with, but as usual people get discouraged with the practices or the laws My God set forth, so they dreamed up there on gods and such as people still do today. Some people even leave God out of every eqation so they don't have to be wrapped up in that type of situation. Which leadsto another problem. They don't have the answers so they search for thier own. Then they begin to think the answers they have found are new and that no one knew those answers existed. Then they take all the credit for it and leave God out because they don't believe in him anyways. All of the gods such as the baal gods lead to the practicesof abomitibal things, such things the one true God detested. Things like witch craft, sorcery, soothsaying, mediums, spiritalist, and the list goes on and on. These things people used to not deny the exsistence of a god, but look for another source for answers. And notice I say another source, it seems to be a pattern. According to my Bilbe, and so you will know what Bible I'm talking about, it is the greek and Hebrew Bible. The Bible Christianity was built from, also known as the Holy Bible. God said from the get go to look to me for answers and people would not listen. Then in some cases God took action and done such things as destroying those kind of people for an example. But it still continued and still to this day continues. But there will be an end to it all someday. That's a promise from God himself.
"Certainty" implies total security from error and being in a state of without doubt. So I believe you when you say "certain." The problem is, you could be completely and utterly wrong not to mention deluded by a life of indoctrination and still arrive at a "certainty," so this doesn't tell us much about whether or not you have any evidence for your beliefs.
Your god didn't start to exist until early Canaanites developed a cult of Yahweh and then gradually isolated this cult away from the remaining Canaanite culture and pantheon to form the Hebrew cults. At one time, Yahweh (your god) was considered to be one god among many and to have a wife (Asherah). But these gods came very late in the thousands of gods that already existed. What, specifically, separates your god from the others? The answer is tradition, culture and indoctrination. And that's the real trick of the spell of religion in that it has the ability to tap into the innate propensity that appears to exist in humanity to believe in the supernatural and insulate itself against inquiry, criticism and rejection by relying on doctrine that attributes these things as "tools of devils," "normal feelings of doubt," or "strength of faith."
As yet, there is no good reason to put your god in any equation as an a priori cause. Indeed, there are many other gods with equal footing as yours when it comes to this. And they are likewise rejected as there are no good reasons to believe they have any basis in reality. Ironically, you probably reject these gods for this very reason.
Searching for answers has been a very good and beneficial quality of humanity in the last 150,000 years. We've gradually and exponentially increased our knowledge of the universe such that we've gone from no technology of written language and rudimentary lithic technologies to being able to communicate in writing at the speed of light to nearly any point on the planet. We understand weather and how to take advantage of it. We understand the nature of evolution and how to harness it to raise better crops and herds. We understand physics well enough to soar in the clouds, traveling destinations far and wide. None of these answers were found in your ancient book of mythology that you so pathetically cling to as a "truth" or source of invaluable information. Indeed, if we were to trim your mythology of all information that is either erroneous, useless, or unnecessary, we'd have little more than a few common-sense guidelines that any human society would be expected to figure out like "do unto others ...."
Your god deserves little credit for the innovations of man since there's no good reason to believe it exists.
These things also don't appear to exist in reality.
A convenient bit of doctrine. If I ever invent my own religious cult, I'll certainly be including such fallacious arguments (this fallacy is known as poisoning the well) to influence those I indoctrinate with ready-made excuses of why not everyone believes. I'll also tell them that not believing pays the price of not getting into my heaven, etc.
Only according to mythology. Your god hasn't openly destroyed non-believers in the modern era where it can be properly evaluated. Either he doesn't exist, he's scared of the media, or he's just unemployed like the rest of the country.
Right. And end to it all. Science makes this promise as well. In a few billion years, the sun will expand and consume the planet, ending all life (if any remains) on Earth probably long before that point. But I've got better things to do with my time than fret over it. I'm certainly not worried about the ravings of some alleged prophet in your mythical book.