"Regime Change"

Do you support Regime Change, in the Whitehouse?

  • I agree

    Votes: 11 91.7%

  • I don't agree

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Total voters
    12
R

robsaunders

Registered Member
:m: I support regime change, it has to happen, if only for the sake of the next few decades...we have so much to do, the flood waters are rising as we are sidetracked by this madness.

With respect to the American people, I want the current American regime to step down. Most of the world do. Bush and Rumsfeld....*shudder*... please levae us alone, we have enough problems as it is without your vile Agenda for the 21st century being allowed to pervade any longer.

:m: :eek:
 
Yeah, and I mean a REAL regime change - not a democratic president that'll just do the same things as a republican one but with a softer "people's party" image.

Politics don't even rule this country any more - money does. Corporations buy us a president (consistently, whoever has the most money put into the campaign wins - regardless of votes, as we've seen), and decisions are made based on the interests of the very few and the very rich (oil barons and CEOs of major corporations). The rest of us just get shit on like we're just another country for the people at the top to exploit.

You can't work within the system in order to change it (e.g. - voting doesn't do shit - with the same CAPITALIST system in place, nothing changes no matter who the individual in the White House is). People are angry. I sincerely hope it builds into an actual revolution. I'd die for the sake of ending America's world domination.
 
Dear cyborgrrl

It may be a biased reaction on my part, but replies like yours give me hope.

Its not just in your country cyborgrrl, its everywhere and it has been that way for oh so long. But the litany of the abuse of humanity is getting longer and more frequent than it ever was in the worst of the times when we were nothing more then slaves in the fields.

RS
 
Oh boy oh boy!

I think I have finally found an alliance within this site, or at least a couple people to allign myself with who, intellectually, critically examine our(meaning humanity)predicament.

Where do we go from here?
 
I was involved politically for a while - going to protests and weekly meetings with a socialist group for a while - but it's so hard. You're not able to make your bills, so then you can't afford to take the Metro into DC to meet with people. You can't afford to take a day off from work to protest in the streets. I felt positively ill when Bush announced his 48-hour warning to Saddam on the night of St. Patrick's Day, and I went outside in the street and it was completely empty because everyone was in bars, drinking, and they didn't even know that we had practically declared war. I wonder if he chose that night on purpose, knowing that SO many Americans would almost certainly be drunk when he gave his speech.

I know what you mean, that it's everywhere.
For a long time (when I was politically involved), I thought I wanted to stay in America, because if people like me left (because they didn't like it), then it would never change, and the rest of the world would still suffer. I wanted to stick around to help change it. Then, more recently, with Prince George dragging us into the stupidest war ever (not that any war is "smart") - I thought, shit, I just want to get out of here. And then I thought - where would I go? Canada? Christ, soon enough WATER will be the next "oil". It'll be privitized, expensive, and increasingly rare, and we'll fucking take over Canada for control of the water supply. Maybe we'll even acknowledge by then that oil is really NOT the way to go for SO many reasons (geopolitical, environmental, ETC.), and we'll actually spend the low billions of dollars it would take to research and develop hydrogen power. (why the FUCK are we going to war over OIL when with much less money and in just a decade or so we could convert entirely to hydrogen power, which is not only cheaper, but actually PRODUCES pure, drinkable water as a BYPRODUCT!?!?!?!?) Where would I go?

To quote a line from the most brilliant online comic ever: "Is this truly the only planet I can live on?"

(check out Get Your War on: http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html)
 
Hey cybor..

What I have noticed about "Americanism" and "Capitalism" is that it is totalizing. People ignoring the fact that a declaration of war had been made by their President, realizing your quandary in continuing your "FIGHT" will deliver destitution, and the constant posts here that disregard the value of human life only emphasize my assertion.

If you find this other planet, let me know.:(
 
I support regime change, it has to happen, if only for the sake of the next few decades...we have so much to do, the flood waters are rising as we are sidetracked by this madness.
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Ok this got me confused at first I thought you were talking about Saddam. Then I read the bottom that said you were talking about America. The few decades really confused me.

Step down? This isint a parlimentary goverment just wait till the 2004 elections even if Bush did win it would just be fore 1 more term. 2008 THE MAXIMUM BUSH CAN STAY IN OFFICE. Is not even 1 decade away.

Politics don't even rule this country any more - money does. Corporations buy us a president (consistently, whoever has the most money put into the campaign wins - regardless of votes, as we've seen), and decisions are made based on the interests of the very few and the very rich (oil barons and CEOs of major corporations). The rest of us just get shit on like we're just another country for the people at the top to exploit.
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Im guess your talking about PACs contributions which are perfectly legal in the United States. If your gonna be talking about large PACs think about farm subsides, teacher unions and the American Medical Assosiation are some of the most powerful. Special intrest groups such as the NRA AARP NAACP and Gay and Lesbian PAC are some the bigger ones that make donations and promise votes. Joining one of these makes your votes stronger. Its how the founding father's designed the nations. Unlike most nations which are just a parlimentary system.

Class dissmissed ;)
 
I don't think that saying I'd die to end America/Capitalism's reign of terror is disregarding human life - I'm sorry you took it that way. I just think it's naive to say you want a revolution, or a regime change, but you only want it if it will happen "nicely". People with lots of power don't just "step down". Why would they?

I'm not an individualist. I know that no individual can change or fix this. Nothing can happen without international solidarity. I don't know why the rest of the world doesn't gang up on America. I mean, I don't personally want to get blown to bits, but I think arrogant, nuclear-weapons-stocking, "you can't touch me, I can do whatever the fuck I want" America deserves to have the rest of the world TAKE IT DOWN.

Anyway, the more people that are networked together with a single goal, the stronger the movement is (obviously) AND the less bloody. The American Revolution was so bloody because it was a relatively tiny group of people fighting for what they wanted. If we had international solidarity among a HUGE number of people who had the single focus of cutting off the robber-barons' power, they could be forced to step down with little or maybe even NO bloodshed. But it would take a LOT of people. And, of course, for there to be minimal bloodshed, the military would have to take the people's side rather than defending the dictators.
 
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Originally posted by fireguy_31
Oh boy oh boy!

I think I have finally found an alliance within this site, or at least a couple people to allign myself with who, intellectually, critically examine our(meaning humanity)predicament.

Where do we go from here?
Click to expand...

oh my
how endearing thou art
 
reply to Salty

I'm not interested in votes at all. There's no one to vote FOR. As I said before, even with different people in the White House, the same SYSTEM is still in place, and THAT'S the problem.

Your "interest groups" are also a major problem. I'm a big supporter of gay rights, feminism, anti-racism, and I do quite a bit of work in those arenas, so please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way. Identity politics are a really big problem. Because politics become specialized and personalized, they become like clothes you wear - and they become ineffectual. Dividing gays rights people from feminists from anti-racists from environmentalists only divides the efforts of the masses and makes the ruling class stronger. We "divide and conquer" ourselves! For example, a black woman is supposed to decide which cause she wants to support - anti-racism, or feminism. Imagine how powerful it would be if anti-racists, feminists, etc., etc. all worked together with the same goals in mind! But no - instead, we separate into our own little specialized groups and accomplish, really, nothing. That's why I was involved with socialists for a while. Anti-racism, feminism, gay rights, etc. were inherent in the definition of being a socialist. So was internationalism, in the group I was with - and nationalism is an UGLY force in America right now. While other groups were squabbling about who got their name plastered on the posters of an anti-war event, the socialists I was with were just concerned with getting everyone together. Like, there were times when two different groups had planned competing anti-war protests for the same day in different locations, and the International Socialist Organization would be like, "Come on guys, this is dumb. It's much more effective to have one BIG protest than some scattered little ones that are disconnected" - and they usually got people to work together.

Salty probably isn't interested, but others might be, so I'll post the site for the International Socialist Organization. It's www.internationalsocialist.org. Even if you aren't moved to join, they have great reading material. Very thoughtful, intelligent, and informative (not the newspaper so much, which is written on a level to be accessible to absolutely everyone, but the International Socialist Review is an incredible publication; I really recommend it, even if you aren't a socialist, per se).
 
Dear FireGuy & Cyborgrrl

I know how both feel. What gives me some hope, is that there are so many in here that feel so similarly. The candle still burns.

If I sound a tad biblical in my tone, believe me that is for a number of reasons, not least becasue the alternative would be to unleash a torrent of the foulest language.

I have never been so fucking angry in my life.

For years, my life revolved around the usual stuff - same as everyone else. Then, a few years ago, I guess when I started to travel a bit, I began to feel real uneasy. I now feel as if the blinkers are off.

You know, our ancestors struggled on the plains of Africa. Our original home. (and look what we did to that as payback) They struggled to survive. They struggled to eat, they struggled to drink, they struggled to find shelter, they struggled to find heat.

What in the name of hell has fucking changed. Is this it???????? The same old issues, the most basic and primitive of issues, dressed up in the veneer of "two thousand years of civilisation". We're still battering the shit out of one another for the exact same reasons!

Is this as far as our sentience and humanity has brought us.

So little has changed. Our 'leaders' consistently betray us. Yet, we can't all speak with one voice on every detail of life, we cannot do this on our own. We have an instinct to cooperate to a point, to appoint those who would claim to have the big ideas.

Where do we go from here? I don't know - on the one hand I hear the thoughts of people such as yourselves and it reinforces something I've started to hear a little about recently. An impatience, a realisation that we have been duped for so long. I'm reluctnant to call it a new awreness, but there is almost the sense of a rising tide. Perhaps some good could come of this abomination. Maybe the people of the world will say ENOUGH!! Not any more!!

Then again, maybe the ideas (and implications) of those who now suggest that our consciousness is little more than an elaborate facade draped over an essentially instinctive, animal nature.

Is that it....a large pack, eyeing its alpha-males with distrust, fear and loathing. But Oh God how we need them to find more carrion for us.

RS
 
Okay "incredible" maybe wasn't the right choice of words to describe the journal. I didn't mean that its not credible. :)
 
sorry my posts are so "behind"

we're all writing a LOT

I hate biodeterminism - we're past that, even though it seems like nothing's changed. It's too easy to blame biology.

Things aren't the same as they always were. There is a much greater disparity between the rich and powerful and the impoverished and oppressed. It's easy to imagine that it's the same, because we're used to thinking in binary terms - rich is just "rich" and poor is just "poor". We're led to believe that America is pretty much mostly middle class, and that is SO far from the truth. Everyone is taught to think of themselves as middle class, even if they're struggling because their job doesn't quite pay enough for them to make their bills and they don't have any health insurance - they'll still max out their credit card to buy an SUV to FEEL like they're middle class.

Anyway - yes, there were always people with power, and people without it. But now the people with power have the power to control trillions of dollars, billions of people, and the survival of the planet itself is at stake. Capitalism produced this, and capitalism didn't always exist. A drive for PROFIT at all costs, even human life, has not always been the force controlling nations. Hell, there hasn't even always been money.

Things do change.

I have to believe that, or everything is utterly hopeless.
 
Originally posted by robsaunders
But the litany of the abuse of humanity is getting longer and more frequent than it ever was in the worst of the times when we were nothing more then slaves in the fields.

RS
Click to expand...

sounds a bit pessimistic perhaps? cant we ascribe the negative shit to growing pains? that we are actively seeking out a balance b/w our civ and nature? 20 years ago you couldnt breathe decently in los angeles, now we might have one smog alert per year! it is now the rule that we clean up our messes (we dont just leave oil slicks floating around).
all this gives me hope.
 
An awakening is upon us, people who otherwise wouldn't give a shit are now taking notice of what it is that threatens us all. It is the systematic homogenization of all for the betterment of a few that, arrogantly and flagrantly, assume a paternal position.

i have been accused by several friends that my "endearingness" to social causes is due to my affiliation with academia and that I will lose this ideology the moment I join society at large. Maybe. Afterall freedom of thought, freedom of association and open debate can be quite influential; compared to the neutral unbiased information provided by the media through a medium that exists, not to inform, but to produce wealth.

This is all I need to convince myself that a revolution is on the horizon. People will awake from their sleep, caused by bombs dropping on their city streets.
 
Dear Salty

Sorry about the confusion, its just that its a rather tired old statement at this stage and I thought I'd turn it on its head for a change.

My reference to 'decades' is in reference to the immediate (in the scale of human history) aftermath of this abomination. Surely you must agree. Every significant conflict in human history has had long-term and far-reaching (often unexpected) repercussions. Of all the nations of the world, America as much as any other must surely have made that observation.

Although I have no wish to tread insensitively, perhaps you might consider that the events of September 11th are partly a downstream effect from the declining British empires attempts to leave its mark on the region of India and Pakistan, and the continued inhumanity that the Saudi royal family perpetuates on its people.

As to Mr Bush's possible further term of office............sweet Jesus, I'm not sure the world could endure another month.

Leave aside this 'war' for the moment. Your discussion regarding PAC's indicate an incisive mind, aware of the complexities of the structures needed for the organisation of civilised society. What then is your opinion on the long-term consequences of every International Treaty of consequence being torn up or disregarded by the present administration. If Iraq never existed, I can assure you that the feelings and opinions of many of the world's people would not be very much different.

And finally, I feel angered by your dismissive tone regarding the parlimentary process. The arrogance you suggest with your tone does you no justice!

Having observed your political system for two decades, I can say this to you Salty, perhaps its time America tried it. And, the lack of any tempering or counter-balance, by a true or real socialist agenda, in your political, civil and societal structures, is for some that live in your nation, a travesty of compassion, justice, truth, honour and freedom.
 
Originally posted by fireguy_31
This is all I need to convince myself that a revolution is on the horizon. People will awake from their sleep, caused by bombs dropping on their city streets.
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RIGHT ON, MAN!!!

Nothing pisses me off more than my co-workers shaking their heads and saying "the world has changed". Fucking wake up! America has been 'protected' for so long - we haven't had to endure "terrorism" or any kind of battles on our own turf - and now we got just a teeny tiny little taste of what so many other countries in the world deal with on a daily basis.

By the way, fireguy - I hear you re: the "academic" criticism. I've been out in the "real world" for two years now, and I'll tell you what - I'm not alienated from "the people" because I spent four years in college. I spent every Saturday on a street corner in DC selling "Socialist Worker" and talking politics with people; I didn't consider myself "above" them, and more importantly, they didn't consider me to be above them. My academic background has given me the ability to think critically about what the media tells me, and to think in terms of solutions rather than just complaints. Don't let anybody tell you you're just a guilt-ridden liberal college hippie who can't do anything. You have just as much right to struggle as anyone else.
 
spookz

I'm glad to see that the efforts of extremists(environmentalists)has given you hope. We will continue to do what we can in the name of hope! Thank-you for your support.
 
I think trying a parliamentary system in the US would at least be a step in the right direction (though of course I'm in favor of a more radical change). At least under parliamentary systems there are actual CHOICES - you know, parties that are DIFFERENT from each other! In America we have two choices, which really aren't choices at all because they're the same thing. It's exactly like being given a choice between Coke and Pepsi when you really want water because you're dehydrated and caffein will just make it worse.

Right now, I'd be more than happy with a parliamentary system. As long as there was a Labor party. ;)
 
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