question 4 those who follow and know the bible

shana

Registered Member
hey you!
you decided to read this, cool!
anyway, this question has been plaguing my mind for a couple days, it has to do with God, and Lucifer (the devil)-Christian/Catholic religion issue.

Was Lucifer jealous of God's power, or was Lucifer jealous of the people that God created and loved?

And I have another question that my friend and I have been arguing about..
Lucifer is against all that is good and God..
If Lucifer is against God why does he punish people for going against God? Does anyone else see the irony in the whole thing??
or is it just supposed to be like that??

hopefully you'll read this and not think it's stupid and maybe even........REPLY!

<3

shana
 
Most of the OT is concerned with God destroying people, cities, children, and the descendents of those he disliked. And then there are the plagues and other forms of mass destruction he enjoys so much.

As a final punishment for anyone who doesn't agree to be one of his slaves he condemns them to eternal damnation in hell.

So why would someone who is meant to be all good and full of love and can do no wrong, would want to maintain the worst possible torture place imaginable?

I think what we have here is a successful propaganda campaign run by God. The real goodie must be the entity who God hates the most - Lucifer.

The OT clearly shows God to be truly evil. So it must be Lucifer who is the good guy.

And as tiassa likes to point out, the Serpent was the only one who spoke the truth in the garden of eden.

Have fun Shana.
 
Shana--

If Lucifer is against God why does he punish people for going against God? Does anyone else see the irony in the whole thing??

I believe you're onto something there. In fact, the whole shamoola seems to be wrapped up in the irony.

Jeffrey Burton Russell wrote a wonderful book entitled, Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages that summarizes many of the philosophical problems associated with the figure of Devil/Satan/Lucifer in Abramic lore.

Insofar as God's Knowledge must be perfect, and his Will immutable, the question of Will the Devil be redeemed? becomes one of the most compelling ideas to ever chase faith-first theologians screaming into the hills.

The problems inherent to the Christian devil are somehow unique to the tradition. My sense of Islam is that there is much left unanswered about evil and its cause, but that one cannot easily point out a Devil and say that this is the root. Rather, the roots seem less significant.

There is no proper theology to describe the role of the Devil according to Christianity. Ironic? Perhaps. Laughable? Definitely.

Welcome to Exosci. I hope you enjoy your time here. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
 
"Was Lucifer jealous of God's power, or was Lucifer jealous of the people that God created and loved?'

My understanding is that god gave man greater importance than the angels. The idea bruised Lucifer's ego. It didn't think much of us. Also, I believe there was/is at play some sibling rivalry--jealousy.

"Lucifer is against all that is good and God.. If Lucifer is against God why does he punish people for going against God?"

Because of man and God's love for man, Lucifer was codemned to Hell. He hates us, I guess. His desire is to draw us away from God--through deception.

Anyway, that is my understanding.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited January 24, 2001).]
 
Hey Shana,

"hopefully you'll read this and not think it's stupid..."

There is no shame in ignorance. That's just the beginning and, possibly, the end. Life would be a bore without it.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited January 23, 2001).]
 
Thank you all so much for reading and responding to my first post.


I went to a private school from kindergarten to 8th grade, and throughout the years always in my religion class is that
"Nobody's perfect, but God"
"God is forgiving"

(heheh)
Then why did he dismiss Lucifer into hell? Did he have fear? And feel threatened of his position being taken away?

anyway, what do you think?

<3
shana
 
My understanding is that god gave man greater importance than the angels. The idea bruised Lucifer's ego. It didn't think much of us. Also, I believe there was/is at play some sibling rivalry--jealousy.

There is, Bowser, an Islamic tale that nearly echoes your sentiment. The primary difference is that it exonerates the Devil even more-so than most stories; essentially, that the angels were ordered to bow before nobody but Allah. Then Allah turned around and demanded that the angels bow to Adam. By this telling, Satan's fall revolves around a mere point of policy: unquestioning obedience or unquestioning defiance--it is not the Devil's problem, as such, if God cannot instruct clearly. Satan was not, by that tale, insubordinate. Merely, he failed to scream, "How low?" when God said, "Bow."

Because of man and God's love for man, Lucifer was codemned to Hell. He's hates us, I guess. His desire is to draw us away from God--deception.

Deception: If we discount the partisan declarations made by generations of Devil-fearing Christians and look at what is recorded in the basis of that faith, Satan's role as a deceiver is not apparent.

Furthermore, Lucifer, as such, is merely the Christian form of the Devil. It's one of the reasons we have so many confusing names for the Devil--to cut down on confusion. After all, did not a satan stop ... I forget the gentleman's name, and then rebuke him for beating his ass? It's an OT story, one I'll have to dig up. But the point is that the satan was not that big a deal until Christians showed up.

I would also mention, at this point, Elaine Pagels' The Origin of Satan (recent, though the vital info escapes me; will fill in later), which documents the development of the Christian Satan from a myriad of ideas, including the Judaic satan. It would appear, based on considerations of the age, inconsistencies 'twixt the synoptic Gospels, and the whole of Western history thenceforth, that Satan, as we have come to know and love him, is a mere propaganda crock.

Remember that if the Devil is not redeemed, God's love and forgiveness are not limitless. If the Devil is not redeemed, it means that he exists outside of God's will, and thus governs regions of the Universe not subject to God's authority.

On the other hand, if the Devil's to be redeemed, it makes the whole thing pointless, eh?

Bowser mentioned something about ignorance. If I add in apathy and a dash of history, we now have the recipe for superstition.

And this, dear Shana, is what I submit to you that the Devil is: mere superstition.

Don't get me wrong, though. As a literary archetype, Satan's way out on the solar rim with the really cool ones. I mean, look at what Satan has spawned: literature, philosophy, even commerce. It's hardly the icon's fault if a bunch of people need something abstract to fear. It's hardly the icon's fault if those fear-laden people make the icon come true.

As Devils go, generally, I'm less a fan of the battle lines drawn in the Christo-Satanic split. To respect those battle lines at all indicates that the fight isn't worth it. But, considering that the historical machinations of early Christianity created this Devil, I suppose, means that those of the faith can tilt as many windmills as they want in the meantime. I, for one, figure the windmill-tilters are the embodiment of that devilish spirit; the wake of death, dysfunction, dislocation, and destruction left in the path of righteousness is, truly, amazing. Thus my hope for all people of faith would be that they would shake off the silly superstitions that lead them to hurt other people.

The Devil is a powerful image used to accomplish many things. But in the end, 'tis merely speculation at best, superstition at worst.

thanx ...,
Tiassa :cool:

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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
 
Shana,

I think you are trying to find logical reasons to explain what is essentially a nonsense scenario. Any close, or in this case not so close, examination of such mythology will only result in conflicts, contradictions and paradoxes. It might be more worthwhile considering why the fictions of devils, and hell have to exist for Christianity to function.

It seems that during most of the past 2000 years it has not been the love of a god that inspired potential Christians but terror and fear of eternal damnation. The calls to fire and brimstone, etc. Christianity ruled not by kindly love but sheer force of terror. The creation of a devil figure is simply a technique for focusing that terror. This is ultimate morality, the battle between good and evil. But it would not be acceptable to have these two moralities at equal level; that would imply that one-day evil could win out. No, there had to be the assurance that God would always be the winner so it made no sense to back the loser. In this way we can see why the devil is considered subordinate to God.

There is much less stress on the devil these days and the concept of a loving Jesus has been promoted more over the past century.

Hope this view helps a little.
Cris
 
JEHOVAH,

"The Power Of Myth" <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif"> <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif">


Had it and read it. Didn't he conclude that there was no God? "...this is it, all." It is a very good book. I gave it to my sister-in-law several years back. I wonder if she still has it.

I didn't catch the whole series on PBS (I was bummed about that, too). I only saw one or two portions of it.

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It's all very large.
 
No. I question all authority. It's a curse with no cure. I respect, however, the authors passion for understanding. I admire his curiosity. I have another book called "World Religions" which covers the same subject. It's dry toast in comparison to "The Power Of Myth."

I had forgotten about Campbell's book until Jahova mentioned it. He's right. It is a very good read which was written by an interesting man.

I would share it with my children.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited January 24, 2001).]
 
"Most of the OT is concerned with God destroying people, cities, children, and the descendents of those he disliked. And then there are the plagues and other forms of mass destruction he enjoys so much.
As a final punishment for anyone who doesn't agree to be one of his slaves he condemns them to eternal damnation in hell."

Misconstruing the Bible 101

Cris, there are verses in the Old Testamnet where God more or less says, "I do not want to have to punish you idiots anymore. Stop doing bad so I can stop punishing sin."

God desires mercy and compassion. He doesn't want to punish but He is forced to.

Obviuosly that will open up a can of worms.

Peace,
Vinnie
 
"If Lucifer is against God why does he punish people for going against God? Does anyone else see the irony in the whole thing??"

The Bible says Jesus suffers with us. By hurting or pulling a person from God, Satan, hurts God himself very much.

Peace,
Vinnie
 
God desires mercy and compassion. He doesn't want to punish but He is forced to.

Vinnie, now you know you shouldn’t have said that. I’ll just state the obvious then.

An omnipotent and omniscient god cannot be forced to do anything. If he truly created the universe and has a universal plan then everything that happens is according to his will. If he is so clever and can foresee everything why does he create a plan where punishments are needed. He punishes and kills because that must be part of his plan. This contradicts omni-benevolence (only does good). Creating a plan when infinite alternatives are available, and including punishment and killing, is sadistic and evil.


[This message has been edited by Cris (edited January 25, 2001).]
 
The Bible says Jesus suffers with us. By hurting or pulling a person from God, Satan, hurts God himself very much.

I'll shed a tear for God :( After all, it sounds like addictive behavior. Of course, that's if we accept certain assumptions about God which have traditional basis: perfect knowledge, immutable will--God's "plan", and that sort of thing.

This is how God wants it. Otherwise:

* God could have made the Universe differently (implied: better)
* God should have made the Universe differently
* God would have made the Universe differently, except for ... (???)

and those such questions of philosophy which are generally considered to diminish our sterling image of God.

I equate your line to the idea that: "This will hurt me more than it does you."

My folks spanked, but I can describe the exchange that ended that practice: One of them pulled the hurt you/hurt me line, and I called BS; one of them argued that what hurts is that they are admitting, in punishment, that they have failed as parents. I reminded them that this was true; they failed when they resorted to violence. That argument, more than anything, told them that corporal punishment would only piss me off, which made me dangerously--in their opinion--more intelligent than they. (Yes, it's rumored that I'm brilliant when being sinister, but I just don't see it. Whatever; it worked to have them afraid of my ability to see through them, and I'm sure they appreciated not having to fear that I would cut their throats in the middle of the night; actually, they figured one of my friends would, but that's a completely separate subject.)

If God must punish, and has no other recourse, then it could be construed--and not unreasonably--that God has failed to communicate his message in a manner that compels people to willfully choose the demanded path. That is about the kindest picture I can paint of the problem. Other scenarios generally suggest devious, manipulative attributes in God's functions.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
 
God more or less says, "I do not want to have to punish you idiots anymore. Stop doing bad so I can stop punishing sin."

... thus the LORD spake: "Thou silly morons! What cause have you to behave exactly as I have designed you? What cause do you have to display the shortcomings I have bequeathed unto you? By what leave do you dare behave according to what you are?"

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited January 25, 2001).]
 
Satan is a tool created by God to instill fear in the hearts of man. The future of the universe has not been predestined; if it has been why would God bother having the universe exist at all if he already knew how everything was going to turn out? As such, God gave everyone the opportunity to choose their own path. By allowing Lucifer, the fallen angel, to tempt humans into eternal damnation, God gives people the chance to choose between good and evil. If they choose good-God, then he is pleased and they go to heaven. If they choose bad-not God, then they go to hell-Satan's territory.

In a sense, the two work together- Satan takes the lost souls to hell; without this option heaven could not exist. What would be the point? Everyone would go to heaven no matter what kind of life they lived. Talk about a necessary evil!
Since all of my friends are going to hell, I think that's where I'd rather be. Besides, Satan sounds like a pretty cool guy. Certainly a lot more fun than God!
 
But Sciguy that reasoning can't work since God is also meant to be omniscient (perfect knowledge of all events past present and future). He knows every decision you will make whether you have been tempted or not, and he knew how you would decide even before you were born.

That can only mean that everything is predetermined.

And you're right why would God bother if he knew exactly how it will turn out, which he must if he is omniscient. Why doesn't he simply go straight to the end game since he is omnipotent.

The only senisble explanation for the observed events is that God does not exist and neither does the devil, heaven or hell.
 
"And you're right why would God bother if he knew exactly how it will turn out, which he must if he is omniscient. Why doesn't he simply go straight to the end game since he is omnipotent."

Maybe he's bored. Maybe he lives vicariously through us.

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It's all very large.
 
Or maybe he has been following our infantile discussions here and has thrown up his hands in frustration, and then gone elsewhere.
 
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