Proposal for large scale habitat on Mars.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Valles Marineris, on Mars, is ~2500 miles long. (The distance between Los Angeles and New York by plane is 2,451 miles.)

"The width of Valles Marineris, the largest canyon in the solar system, varies from 125–200 kilometers (78–124 miles) across, depending on the location"

"The Valles Marineris canyon system on Mars can reach depths of up to 11 kilometers (36,000 ft) below the surrounding plateau."


The proposal is that we use VM, for short, to house a colony. (Money is no object, for now.)

Quick thoughts (expanded as we go on.):

We live in the walls of the valley. Protection against meteors and proof against stormy weather.

Crops grown on the floor of the valley. We roof over sections of the canyon floor for growing crops and raising livestock. Triple layer of clear plastic with sealant between the layers that expands into and seals meteor holes.

The Valles is mostly east-west, so we put reflectors on the appropriate side of the Valles to give extra light to the crops.

Elsewhere in Valles we have mining operation exploiting the free (up to) 11 kilometers of depth into the planet to possibly reach metals and mineral the exist closer to the core.

Beau coup money needed for this, but it's fun to think a new colony of Earth exploiting a near-planet killer impact.

 

[Pinball1970]

We live in the walls of the valley. Protection against meteors and proof against stormy weather

Radiation an issue

 

[billvon]

We live in the walls of the valley. Protection against meteors and proof against stormy weather.

The valley is not really like the Grand Canyon. It is so flat that it's like being on a plain, just with the horizon being a few degrees higher. The walls are VERY shallow; you generally can't see the rims of the canyon because the curvature of Mars is greater than the slope.

Crops grown on the floor of the valley. We roof over sections of the canyon floor for growing crops and raising livestock. Triple layer of clear plastic with sealant between the layers that expands into and seals meteor holes.

If you want to run at 2PSI (about the limit that plants can grow at) do the math to see what forces would be on a 1 acre plastic cover. Then do that for 7PSI (livestock limit.)

Here's an alternative idea:

Land automated tractors and dig a conical hole (30 degree slopes) about 20 miles deep. At the bottom of the hole air pressures will be high enough that you can walk around in shirtsleeves with just an oxygen mask. Plants will grow once you have a small amount of oxygen down there. Water can exist, so you have a lake in the center that creates a little weather. The air will be warmer at that altitude, and the air will be thick enough to block a lot of radiation.

This is also hugely expensive but is very, very simple - you just dig. Land a huge earthmover with a nuclear power source and let it run for 20 years. All it has to do is go to the bottom, dig, then climb back out and dump the dirt.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There are vertical scarps we could use. Plus if we decide to dig we could bull doze up to the hard material, then tunnel in through that.

As for the roof, it would be a huge balloon supported only by internal pressure. Inflatable columns would obviously be used to reduce the stress on the roof.


Tunneling 20 miles down would reduce the time the sun would shine onto the bottom. Plants will need acreage even if they're hydroponic.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Radiation an issue

Yep, we will need to minimize exposure to that.

 

[TheVat]

The air will be warmer at that altitude, and the air will be thick enough to block a lot of radiation

I've heard that Mars's main radiation issue is the very weak magnetosphere. So diversion of solar wind is lacking. Possibly subterranean habitats would be needed, i.e. thicker air wouldn't be enough. But perhaps a modification of your idea could be a trench colony, where very high cliffs created by the dig could block a lot of energetic solar particles. People only needing to go underground when there's a major solar storm, maybe. (I realize the trench approach would need sunlight reflectors or light tubes or something to bring more light to croplands) (and trenches have instabilities that could make them too much trouble to stabilize)

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We haven't surveyed all the side canyons, they remain a possible site for my hair-brained idea. A north-south canyon would be mo bettah, I think.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The valley is not really like the Grand Canyon. It is so flat that it's like being on a plain, just with the horizon being a few degrees higher. The walls are VERY shallow; you generally can't see the rims of the canyon because the curvature of Mars is greater than the slope.

I think we're talking about different places. Had to check the pictures, not seen what you describe as being so ubiquitous as to rule out my suggestions.

 

[(Q)]

All Tomorrows:

Earth scientists began the endeavor of terraforming Mars sometime during the 22nd or 23rd century with a series of atmospheric bombardments. This was achieved by sending large quantities of genetically tailored, earth borne microbes to Mars in order to develop an atmosphere that could sustain human life. This process took centuries, but was ultimately successful. Next, scientists began altering the trajectory of multiple cometary fragments composed of water ice in order to crash them into the surface of Mars. The ice would then melt into oceans and other large bodies of water. Once this stage was finished, genetically modified versions of terrestrial flora and fauna were sent to Mars to further replicate Earth’s ecology.

After several hundred years, Mars was colonized using one-way ships packed with colonists.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why?

And that would have been the largest rape of a natural environment in human history.

 

[(Q)]

Why?

And that would have been the largest rape of a natural environment in human history.

That's colonization. For that, you'd need to solve the problem of atmosphere and water supply to grow crops.

 

[billvon]

I think we're talking about different places. Had to check the pictures, not seen what you describe as being so ubiquitous as to rule out my suggestions.

Let's put it this way. It's 11km deep and 200km across. That's an average slope of about 6 degrees - not very "canyonlike." Compare that to the Grand Canyon, whose hiking trails are about 12 degrees. And naturally the hiking trails are in the _least_ steep parts of the canyon.

There may of course be much steeper cliffs in specific locations both in the canyon and on the rest of Mars, and those may be better suited for a plan like yours.

Other considerations are going to be:
-Needs a very flat plain nearby as a landing area
-Needs access to surface or subsurface water ice (for oxygen and water)
-Needs to be nearish the equator for more moderate temperatures
-Nearby lava tubes will likely be necessary for early settlement (protection from radiation/cold and a way to maintain pressure)

 

[billvon]

And that would have been the largest rape of a natural environment in human history.

Yep. Any colonization of another planet is going to be that. Colonization of the Moon - same thing.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Let's put it this way. It's 11km deep and 200km across. That's an average slope of about 6 degrees - not very "canyonlike." Compare that to the Grand Canyon, whose hiking trails are about 12 degrees. And naturally the hiking trails are in the _least_ steep parts of the canyon.

There may of course be much steeper cliffs in specific locations both in the canyon and on the rest of Mars, and those may be better suited for a plan like yours.

Other considerations are going to be:
-Needs a very flat plain nearby as a landing area
-Needs access to surface or subsurface water ice (for oxygen and water)
-Needs to be nearish the equator for more moderate temperatures
-Nearby lava tubes will likely be necessary for early settlement (protection from radiation/cold and a way to maintain pressure)

Have you looked at the pictures? We're not on the same page.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yep. Any colonization of another planet is going to be that. Colonization of the Moon - same thing.

True. And we wouldn't have to go full Cortez as there aren't any natives. (Microscopic, maybe.)

But both Mars and the Moon are tabula rasa. Europa would be a problem for me until it was examined carefully.

 

[Zero Point Native]

Sure, why not? However, I’d just prefer to travel to a more habitable planet once we finally obtain the andvanced interstellar technology needed from more advanced human civilizations living in other parts of the Universe as well as our own galaxy.

 

[HonestJoe]

The proposal is that we use VM, for short, to house a colony. (Money is no object, for now.)

I don't claim to be any great expert but I feel you're focusing on the wrong problems. The key requirements for a large colony on Mars would be water, oxygen (which could come from the water) and protection from radiation. The leading consideration for location would be water (which is why the poles have been suggested). The factors you're ideas account for could be addressed pretty much anywhere else with a similar amount of resource and effort.

That said, I'm not convinced anything large scale and/or self-supporting is viable in the foreseeable future, in great part because of another key factor; a reason. While missions to Mars for scientific purposes and even the establishment of some kind of permanent infrastructure to support further exploration could well be justified, actual colonisation doesn't really make sense unless and until there are things that colony could obtain (presumably in natural resources) to justify the effort, cost and risks.

From a purely practical point of view, I see the prospects as similar to the Artic/Antarctica or the deep oceans. Cool to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Sure, why not? However, I’d just prefer to travel to a more habitable planet once we finally obtain the andvanced interstellar technology needed from more advanced human civilizations living in other parts of the Universe as well as our own galaxy.

I carry a spare tire. A spare planet, habitable if not Earthly to the max, would be a few quantums above that.

 

[(Q)]

Sure, why not? However, I’d just prefer to travel to a more habitable planet once we finally obtain the andvanced interstellar technology needed from more advanced human civilizations living in other parts of the Universe as well as our own galaxy.

Ah yes, the dream, aliens come down and provide us with interstellar travel so that we can all join Star Fleet Academy.

I keep wondering though, that the time of men will soon be over and as of Jan. 20, the age of the orc will begin.

 

[Ken Fabian]

Gawdzilla Sama - Leaving out money and the economics - internal to the colony as well Earthside in support - sidesteps a lot of the biggest and hardest problems. I think it is fantasy, within a larger fantasy of perpetual technological advancement where trying for enough time inevitably overcomes all constraints. I am not convinced there is any such inevitability even for some of the smaller steps, not without the economics being intrinsically positive. Profitability can bring some kind of inevitability - or at least the investments to try. Money being no object may be the biggest fantasy of all.

I get that it is thought experiment... yet I see optimism that comes with strong conviction that it is achievable that I think is unwarranted. At this point we have SpaceX Starship in development but that is still far short of what is needed for this imaginary scenario. But I can only see SpaceX doing missions to Mars if taxpayers foot the bill - contracts on a cost plus profit basis. Taxpayer funded contracts are the principle economic opportunity space offers and apart from communications and Earth sensing (for paying Earth customers) it is not self sustaining.

The key requirements for a large colony on Mars would be water, oxygen (which could come from the water) and protection from radiation.

I think every requirement will be a key requirement; there won't be any reducing the needs of a colony down to just water and Oxygen and radiation shielding. Purely essential probably includes some of everything - iron, steel, copper, aluminium, magnesium chemicals and metal, sodium chemicals, chromium, tungsten, vanadium, carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous, zinc, lithium, gold, silver, platinum, cobalt, manganese, gallium etc, etc. It might be possible to reduce needs for some, even evade the need entirely for a few but at the cost of narrower technological options and reduced quality. Mining machinery and construction machinery is expensive and high mass and it can't run on diesel fuel; battery electric capable of operating in extreme cold must be developed to high reliability before relying on it. And the electricity supply to run it all, which might be solar most of the time - but Mars gets global scale duststorms during Mars, seasonal enough to plan for but unavoidable. Nuclear? Better add Uranium ores to the list - like some others it may not exist on Mars as ores with usable concentrations.

As far as I am aware no significant mineral ore bodies suitable for mining have been identified on Mars, let alone a comprehensive range that self reliance requires. There is no extremely cheap sea transport - or railways - to enable remote mining at a distance. Gawdzilla suggests mining very deep (11km) but that sounds fantastically unrealistic - and not simply a matter of spending enough money to be viable. To be a viable colony with high levels of self sufficiency takes an advanced industrial economy that can do pretty much everything - and no advanced nation on Earth does that; they depend on trade.

Metals and other refining usually uses a variety of consumable materials that have to be sourced as well as a lot of equipment and the means to maintain and replace equipment. Might be able to make plastics out of carbonaceous asteroid material (at small amounts frommeteorite craters? from Deimos or Phobos?) but a triple layer plastic roof of vast size sounds like a serious plastics industry is needed just for that.

As a setting for a science fiction story it sounds great. A lot more fun than being there.