No problem QQ. Actually normally charge doesn't penetrate within, though it's possible to create a capacitor configuration with interior surface of cage forming an outer conductor. But regardless the net charge within cage is still zero. Faraday cage works to block incident radiation as well as electrostatic fields Just on reason for grounding a FC: Mainly to protect from external shocks I think. While internally everything is at an equipotential, under AC induced field situation a floating FC could have large fluctuating voltages referenced to ground and that could entail sizable capacitive 'charging' currents between cage and ground. An earthing strap holds FC at ground potential. It's important to remember that a FC is only effective at frequencies where wavelength is much larger than mesh spacing.
Principles of creating an Under Unity Environment
- Thread starter Quantum Quack
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Given your posts since my last reply, I think I have a better idea what you're trying to do. You want to use the photoelectric effect to put charge on the outside of a container, then use the resulting charge differential to send a current into the container where it will do work. Is that right? If so, a Faraday cage wasn't the right choice of box material, but the experiment could definitely be done.
The problem is that as you run current into the box, the inside will charge up until there is no longer any charge differential between the inside and the outside, at which point the current will stop. Before I thought you were doing something with blackbody radiation, so it was heat rather than charge that would flow, but the principle is the same. If you make a differential of any kind, you can extract energy from it, but the process of extraction will destroy the differential.
In systems that aren't cleanly divided into the inside and outside of a "box", it's a little more abstract but the idea is still the same. In the case of the moon and the tides, tides do work using the energy of the moon orbiting the Earth. As they do so, they slow the orbit of the moon. The moon is really massive and has crazy amounts of momentum, so it will take a very long time to run down, but eventually the moon will be in geosynchronous orbit and the Earth will not have tides. (Assuming none of the other super-long-term processes in the universe interfere, of course.)
Ahh yes I see that you grasp the idea quiet well....
Hypothetically the device inside the box would then transfer by way of mechanical rotation the energy that is gathering inside the box, thus maintaining the the state of "under" unity.
With out the conversion of the charged energy [that has been transported into the box] into mechanical energy the under unity environment would not exist. [Use it or lose it type situation]
I would imagine that it can not transport charge outside the box and only mechanical movement would be possible due to charge returning to unity [The differential would be zero for charge to charge conversion] upon exiting the box where as mechanical rotation would exist regardless of environment.
If transported to a device outside the box obviously an under unity situation also does not exist.
The whole system has to preform an energy conversion as the Moon/Earth system does regarding tides to restore unity.
The mechanical rotation of the motors axle allows the under unity environment, not only to go on existing but to provide an ability to effectively extract usable mechanical energy from natural EMR in the process....
A cycle of "transfer of energy" is involved that allows for the conservation of energy with a productive output.
A quick diagram to show what I mean in simple terms.
The motor device must reside in side the cage so that it can capitalize on that differential immediately. [Outside the cage there is a state of unity, [no gain] where as inside the cage a hypothetical under unity environment is available]
Regardless it is the principle of using natural resources to generate a "need" that only motion can resolve. [typical of all things]
the most important thing to realize is that this hypothetical situation does not ever go "over unity" yet useful mechanical energy may be achieved.
View attachment 6408
Hypothetically the device inside the box would then transfer by way of mechanical rotation the energy that is gathering inside the box, thus maintaining the the state of "under" unity.
With out the conversion of the charged energy [that has been transported into the box] into mechanical energy the under unity environment would not exist. [Use it or lose it type situation]
I would imagine that it can not transport charge outside the box and only mechanical movement would be possible due to charge returning to unity [The differential would be zero for charge to charge conversion] upon exiting the box where as mechanical rotation would exist regardless of environment.
If transported to a device outside the box obviously an under unity situation also does not exist.
The whole system has to preform an energy conversion as the Moon/Earth system does regarding tides to restore unity.
The mechanical rotation of the motors axle allows the under unity environment, not only to go on existing but to provide an ability to effectively extract usable mechanical energy from natural EMR in the process....
A cycle of "transfer of energy" is involved that allows for the conservation of energy with a productive output.
A quick diagram to show what I mean in simple terms.
The motor device must reside in side the cage so that it can capitalize on that differential immediately. [Outside the cage there is a state of unity, [no gain] where as inside the cage a hypothetical under unity environment is available]
Regardless it is the principle of using natural resources to generate a "need" that only motion can resolve. [typical of all things]
the most important thing to realize is that this hypothetical situation does not ever go "over unity" yet useful mechanical energy may be achieved.
View attachment 6408
Ahh yes I see that you grasp the idea quiet well....
Hypothetically the device inside the box would then transfer by way of mechanical rotation the energy that is gathering inside the box, thus maintaining the the state of "under" unity.
With out the conversion of the charged energy [that has been transported into the box] into mechanical energy the under unity environment would not exist. [Use it or lose it type situation]
I would imagine that it can not transport charge outside the box and only mechanical movement would be possible due to charge returning to unity [The differential would be zero for charge to charge conversion] upon exiting the box where as mechanical rotation would exist regardless of environment.
If transported to a device outside the box obviously an under unity situation also does not exist.
The whole system has to preform an energy conversion as the Moon/Earth system does regarding tides to restore unity.
The mechanical rotation of the motors axle allows the under unity environment, not only to go on existing but to provide an ability to effectively extract usable mechanical energy from natural EMR in the process....
A cycle of "transfer of energy" is involved that allows for the conservation of energy with a productive output.
A quick diagram to show what I mean in simple terms.
The motor device must reside in side the cage so that it can capitalize on that differential immediately. [Outside the cage there is a state of unity, [no gain] where as inside the cage a hypothetical under unity environment is available]
Regardless it is the principle of using natural resources to generate a "need" that only motion can resolve. [typical of all things]
the most important thing to realize is that this hypothetical situation does not ever go "over unity" yet useful mechanical energy may be achieved.
View attachment 6408
You do realize that a motor can't actually turn charge into motion, right? A motor will allow you to extract useful work as charge flows from a high- to a low-voltage region, but it won't keep the low-voltage region from charging up as the current runs. Like any electrical device, current needs to run through the motor, meaning it will have both an input and an output terminal somewhere. If the output terminal is inside the box, it will charge up until there is no longer any "under unity" environment. If it's outside the box, the current won't run.
yes , I see your point...
The motor is supposed to, in it's action, provide the grounding of the cage...
Hypothetically the box is supposed to create a "universal" unity imbalance, like as if it is an anomaly. The motor's action is required to maintain imbalance as it attempts to restore unity but can never do so over time because the cage itself exists and until the cage itself is no longer present the anomaly [unity imbalance] would continue to exist.
Suffice to say that all aspects of this particular situation have to be entirely and absolutely self justifying/resolving including the energy output, if any, by the axle of the motor.
The net result "with axle rotation" is zero regarding the maintenance of universal unity.
Also I believe that Static electricity has to be considered differently to standard DC electricity
I guess you lost me here. Are you saying that you want the box to actively maintain disunity between the inside and the outside, even with the motor working to restore unity? Because a box like that can't be built. The best you can do with an unpowered box is to isolate an "under unity" region from its environment, so that it won't fall apart before you can extract useful work from it.
Yeah there is a an issue that I am having difficulty finding the correct terminology for....
"the restoration towards unity is never achieved but the attempt must be made regardless",
"the rotation of the axle is an outcome of the frustration of the quest for unity"
In more scientific terms, I think you're trying to say that the motor is constantly working to restore equilibrium, but it never gets there. And that's impossible according to thermodynamics.