Principles of creating an Under Unity Environment

[Quantum Quack]

Whilst complying fully to the laws of thermodynamics, I believe a localized Under Unity environment can be established.
The following image is a rough diagram to explain in very simplistic terms what I mean by Localized Under Unity Environment.[LUUE]
By capturing ambient EMR with the use of a Faraday cage and transporting that "charge" to a device inside that Faraday cage a potential for work can be derived.
That potential to do work is directly related to the effectiveness of the Faraday cage. The electric motor shown could also be a storage battery for example, that over time may provide a potential to do work

Am I right?

Care to discus?



View attachment 6400

 

[Q-reeus]

Whilst complying fully to the laws of thermodynamics, I believe a localized Under Unity environment can be established.
The following image is a rough diagram to explain in very simplistic terms what I mean by Localized Under Unity Environment.[LUUE]
By capturing ambient EMR with the use of a Faraday cage and transporting that "charge" to a device inside that Faraday cage a potential for work can be derived.
That potential to do work is directly related to the effectiveness of the Faraday cage. The electric motor shown could also be a storage battery for example, that over time may provide a potential to do work
Am I right?

I don't think so. A Faraday cage simply provides an equipotential enclosure - as per your Wiki link in other thread. What exactly do you mean by ambient EMR? Stray signals from TV and radio transmitters, ambient thermal radiation, light from sun etc.? Or vacuum ZPE aka 'vacuum fluctuations'? If the former, how does a Faraday cage offer any means for 'capturing charge'? Why not simply use an antenna array and rectify via diodes the tiny RF currents so collected?
If the latter, how would any hypothetical ZPE 'extraction' not violate the first law of thermodynamics, given ZPE is part and parcel of vacuum in it's ground state? You propose vacuum can be driven to 'below ground state'?

 

[Quantum Quack]

I don't think so. A Faraday cage simply provides an equipotential enclosure - as per your Wiki link in other thread. What exactly do you mean by ambient EMR? Stray signals from TV and radio transmitters, ambient thermal radiation, light from sun etc.? Or vacuum ZPE aka 'vacuum fluctuations'? If the former, how does a Faraday cage offer any means for 'capturing charge'? Why not simply use an antenna array and rectify via diodes the tiny RF currents so collected?
If the latter, how would any hypothetical ZPE 'extraction' not violate the first law of thermodynamics, given ZPE is part and parcel of vacuum in it's ground state? You propose vacuum can be driven to 'below ground state'?

Do you understand the principle of "Localized Under Unity" suggested?
And if so can you see value in it or not?

If you knew what the source of ZPE is you would realize that energy extracted is not breaking any laws of thermodynamics. If the universe is an absolutely "closed system" as the laws suggest then at absolutely no time nor instance of time can there be a break in those laws. Therefore if energy is being extracted from the vacuum, it MUST be coming from somewhere...[other than vacuum - nothingness - ex-nihilo] to maintain the laws of thermodynamics as correct and founded.

Would you say that the use of super cooling to superconductivity is going below ground state?
Super conductivity, IMO is utilizing a generated localized Under Unity environment. [due to extreme lack of heat [energy]]

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[Q-reeus]

Do you understand the principle of "Localized Under Unity" suggested?
And if so can you see value in it or not?

Sorry but I see no principle, just a vague idea that is probably wrong but needs a much tighter explanation to even say that. First, what is the means of collecting charge? You haven't mentioned rectification so are you talking about sending in the charge as a DC or AC current? And what advantage is there to send it inside?

If you knew what the source of ZPE is you would realize that energy extracted is not breaking any laws of thermodynamics. If the universe is an absolutely "closed system" as the laws suggest then at absolutely no time nor instance of time can there be a break in those laws. Therefore if energy is being extracted from the vacuum, it MUST be coming from somewhere...[other than vacuum - nothingness] to maintain the laws of thermodynamics as correct and founded.

Well here it seems you did mean ZPE as ambient EMR. Most will say that it is the very laws of thermo that prohibit harvesting ZPE. I have come across one claim re ZPE 'extraction' that at least has an air of plausibility about it:
http://www.calphysics.org/articles/Moddel_VacExtrac.pdf
In the end though, it gets back to how do you extract energy from an environment at the very bottom of the potential well?

Would you say that the use of super cooling to superconductivity is going below ground state?
Super conductivity, IMO is utilizing a generated localized Under Unity environment. [due to extreme lack of heat [energy]]
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I'm not near expert on superconductivity in general. However I can say that superconductivity involves condensation of paired electrons into a bosonic ground state system. Nothing gets to be below that ground state. And there is no evidence anything in superconductivity allows extraction of ZPE, but I'll bet there are papers out there claiming some connection.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Sorry but I see no principle, just a vague idea that is probably wrong but needs a much tighter explanation to even say that. First, what is the means of collecting charge? You haven't mentioned rectification so are you talking about sending in the charge as a DC or AC current? And what advantage is there to send it inside?

Well here it seems you did mean ZPE as ambient EMR. Most will say that it is the very laws of thermo that prohibit harvesting ZPE. I have come across one claim re ZPE 'extraction' that at least has an air of plausibility about it:
http://www.calphysics.org/articles/Moddel_VacExtrac.pdf
In the end though, it gets back to how do you extract energy from an environment at the very bottom of the potential well?

I'm not near expert on superconductivity in general. However I can say that superconductivity involves condensation of paired electrons into a bosonic ground state system. Nothing gets to be below that ground state. And there is no evidence anything in superconductivity allows extraction of ZPE, but I'll bet there are papers out there claiming some connection.

So you have a fascination with ZPE yes?

The OP is about a principle of what is necessary to create an Under Unity environment.
It is not about ZPE nor is it about how you might convert energy stored or collected by a Faraday cage. The Faraday cage is merely used as an example to demonstrate what is meant by an under unity environment.

I'm not near expert on superconductivity in general. However I can say that superconductivity involves condensation of paired electrons into a bosonic ground state system. Nothing gets to be below that ground state.

so the ground state exists surrounded by a non-ground state environment therefore the ground state could be considered as Under Unity for it's local environment.


Do you have any ideas that you may share about Under unity environments?

As an aside I repeat what I wrote before:

Therefore if energy is being extracted from the vacuum, it MUST be coming from somewhere...[other than vacuum - nothingness - ex-nihilo] to maintain the laws of thermodynamics as correct and founded.

 

[Q-reeus]

So you have a fascination with ZPE yes?

The OP is about a principle of what is necessary to create an Under Unity environment.
It is not about ZPE nor is it about how you might convert energy stored or collected by a Faraday cage. The Faraday cage is merely used as an example to demonstrate what is meant by an under unity environment.

so the ground state exists surrounded by a non-ground state environment therefore the ground state could be considered as Under Unity for it's local environment.


Do you have any ideas that you may share about Under unity environments?

As an aside I repeat what I wrote before:

Sorry QQ but don't want to bite any further on this one. I do suggest you study that linked article carefully as it points out certain pitfalls and subtleties involved. And despite the ingenious design, can't even share the author's hopefulness about 'proposal C' there. To be honest I would expect this thread to be bumped elsewhere shortly.

 

[Quantum Quack]

All the Faraday cage is doing is setting up a very small differential between the ambience inside the cage and the ambience outside the cage. That small differential has the potential to be converted into mechanical advantage using nano tech motors.
example:
[video=youtube;1TpJsV-BQl0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TpJsV-BQl0[/video]

All that is needed it to create that differential using the local ambiance as your relative "ground" state.
For example:
if the ambient temperature of a room is a constant 40c then any container that can naturally maintain a colder temperature with out any energy input would generate a localised under unity environment inside that container.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Sorry QQ but don't want to bite any further on this one. I do suggest you study that linked article carefully as it points out certain pitfalls and subtleties involved. And despite the ingenious design, can't even share the author's hopefulness about 'proposal C' there. To be honest I would expect this thread to be bumped elsewhere shortly.

why are you talking about ZPE?
How is it relevant to the OP?
seriously, I am curious why you have determined ZPE is involved.

 

[Q-reeus]

why are you talking about ZPE?
How is it relevant to the OP?
seriously, I am curious why you have determined ZPE is involved.

OK it now seems from your #7 ambient EMR basically means constant temp thermal environment. It would have been helpful to make that clear early on. So evidently your real intent is to get around the 2nd law, not 1st law, by overcoming Carnot cycle limit. I watched ~ 2/3 of that vid before giving up with boredom. Well actually if you want to look at something interesting and suggestive, forget 'Maxwell's Demon' approach using nano-whatevers. And your Faraday cage concept seems to boil down to an omnidirectional receiving antenna of sorts, but it's too vague to be sure. I gave a link to an article here. Have a read. You may wish to ask then answer a few questions relating to that setup. Like will that arrangement truly create an energy density differential for random incident monochromatic radiation. Further, can that be extended to cover the case of extremely broad spectrum black body radiation ('ambient EMR')? Good luck with your quest.

 

[Quantum Quack]

OK it now seems from your #7 ambient EMR basically means constant temp thermal environment. It would have been helpful to make that clear early on. So evidently your real intent is to get around the 2nd law, not 1st law, by overcoming Carnot cycle limit. I watched ~ 2/3 of that vid before giving up with boredom. Well actually if you want to look at something interesting and suggestive, forget 'Maxwell's Demon' approach using nano-whatevers. And your Faraday cage concept seems to boil down to an omnidirectional receiving antenna of sorts, but it's too vague to be sure. I gave a link to an article here. Have a read. You may wish to ask then answer a few questions relating to that setup. Like will that arrangement truly create an energy density differential for random incident monochromatic radiation. Further, can that be extended to cover the case of extremely broad spectrum black body radiation ('ambient EMR')? Good luck with your quest.

Thanks for your suggestions and I shall look at the link you have provided.
And NO, EMR stands for Electromagnetic radiation
The example of a thermal differential is just another example of generating a Localized relative Under Unity environment.
I am sure other examples could be provided where by this sort of under unity situation can occur. [whether relative or absolute]

Most often, when people think of pseudo perpetual motion or energy, they work on an impossibility of generating an over unity environment.. [more energy out than energy in sort of thing. However in an under unity environment that is naturally derived i e. the Faraday cage/EMR situation we are simply working with existing energies and generating an Under Unity situation where by the universal need for unity [balanced thermodynamics] drives the outcome.
no energy in, yet energy out. Because we are only utilizing and working with existing energies.

A couple of recent and famous devices attempted to function but failed because the makers were working towards an "over unity" situation that immediately defies the laws of thermodynamics. [there fore as stated earlier -impossible] They could have possibly succeeded if they worked on the notion of under unity instead. Using an under unity system does not defy the laws of thermodynamics and yet may possibly provide the net result of pseudo perpetual motion with out defying the Laws of Thermodynamics.

This is because we [using under unity] are not attempting to add energy to the universal closed system.

As a side note: I am not really all that interested in building an Under Unity device....I am merely wishing to explore the concept further as in principle it has many applications [ some of which are already in use but not considered in the same way as mentioned here]

 

[Q-reeus]

Thanks for your suggestions and I shall look at the link you have provided.
And NO, EMR stands for Electromagnetic radiation

Yes I know what it means and a thermal environment fits that definition as blackbody radiation is EMR.

The example of a thermal differential is just another example of generating a Localized relative Under Unity environment.

'Over unity' as commonly used means more out than in. 'Under unity' ipso facto means less out than in. That is useful? Either definition implies energy is not conserved. Created in the first instance, destroyed in the second. But I suspect you have a broader definition for 'under unity' as per below.

Most often, when people think of pseudo perpetual motion or energy, they work on an impossibility of generating an over unity environment.. [more energy out than energy in sort of thing. However in an under unity environment that is naturally derived i e. the Faraday cage/EMR situation we are simply working with existing energies and generating an Under Unity situation where by the universal need for unity [balanced thermodynamics] drives the outcome.
no energy in, yet energy out. Because we are only utilizing and working with existing energies.

On the surface those last two statements contradict each other. But again I will guess you mean energy is pouring in from the environment and then somehow made available for useful work via the Faraday cage. It boils down to claiming to violate ('sidestep' maybe a nicer term) the 2nd law given you posit an ambient environment. A Faraday cage obeys the usual thermal emissivity relations - meaning blackbody radiation prevails to exactly the same extent inside as outside the cage. Maybe you have in mind some kind of clustering nano-scale Maxwell's Demon arrangement, but then it is no longer a Faraday cage. Either way, there are sophisticated proofs against any Maxwell's Demon beating the 2nd law. Check out Wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_demon

A couple of recent and famous devices attempted to function but failed because the makers were working towards an "over unity" situation that immediately defies the laws of thermodynamics. [there fore as stated earlier -impossible] They could have possibly succeeded if they worked on the notion of under unity instead. Using an under unity system does not defy the laws of thermodynamics and yet may possibly provide the net result of pseudo perpetual motion with out defying the Laws of Thermodynamics.

This is because we [using under unity] are not attempting to add energy to the universal closed system.

But you are attempting to beat the 2nd Law. Show me some actual details! And this really belongs under Alternative Theories or - sorry - Pseudoscience section.

 

[Fednis48]

The problem with creating an "under unity environment" is that you need to let energy in for it to accomplish anything. In the specific example shown here, as the cage absorbs EMR and generates electricity, it will heat up until its blackbody spectrum matches that of the surrounding environment. At that point it won't be able to convert ambient EMR into electricity any more.

In this sense, your setup (and any other under unity setup) is a bit like making a box that's cold on the inside, then extracting work from the temperature difference between the box and its surroundings. You'll certainly produce some energy with the resulting heat engine, but always less energy than it took to put the box together in the first place.

 

[Q-reeus]

The problem with creating an "under unity environment" is that you need to let energy in for it to accomplish anything. In the specific example shown here, as the cage absorbs EMR and generates electricity, it will heat up until its blackbody spectrum matches that of the surrounding environment. At that point it won't be able to convert ambient EMR into electricity any more.

In this sense, your setup (and any other under unity setup) is a bit like making a box that's cold on the inside, then extracting work from the temperature difference between the box and its surroundings. You'll certainly produce some energy with the resulting heat engine, but always less energy than it took to put the box together in the first place.

If QQ was proposing some temporary and weak thermoelectric effect from refrigerating the Faraday cage, yes in principle something might be had - but not just a Faraday cage. His reference to superconductivity sort of leads one to think that is what is imagined. However a check of #7 and it seems clear that what is proposed is that the FC, placed in ambient environment, somehow creates a temperature and/or voltage differential all by itself!

 

[Quantum Quack]

It what is proposed is that the FC, placed in ambient environment, somehow creates a temperature and/or voltage differential all by itself!

that is indeed what is proposed using the Faraday Cage. Based on the premise that a static charge will build up on the cages outer surface which "could" be utilized by transporting that charge to a localized under unity environment that the cage creates with in it.

Example:
Abstraction:
charge outside : 10 units
charge inside: 9.8 units
Differential : 0.2 units

If this is an incorrect premise please explain... [keeping in mind we are talking about a very small differential but a differential of value all the same]
It is the small differential that provides the potential to extract work from the cage.

The inner environment may be a near vacuum as well... to lower the amount of ambient charge with in the cage and increase the differential accordingly.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Note the use of the word "example" and it's meaning may be causing a problem... what other word /meaning would you suggest...

 

[Quantum Quack]

The problem with creating an "under unity environment" is that you need to let energy in for it to accomplish anything. In the specific example shown here, as the cage absorbs EMR and generates electricity, it will heat up until its blackbody spectrum matches that of the surrounding environment. At that point it won't be able to convert ambient EMR into electricity any more.

ok... this is interesting... can you elaborate a little more?

Would the cage heat up if the energy was being utilized or transported from the outer surface? [Grounded via the device inside of the cage]

 

[Q-reeus]

that is indeed what is proposed using the Faraday Cage. Based on the premise that a static charge will build up on the cages outer surface which "could" be utilized by transporting that charge to a localized under unity environment that the cage creates with in it.

Example:
Abstraction:
charge outside : 10 units
charge inside: 9.8 units
Differential : 0.2 units

If this is an incorrect premise please explain... [keeping in mind we are talking about a very small differential but a differential of value all the same]
It is the small differential that provides the potential to extract work from the cage.

All I see here is a postulate without any physical basis. How - by what known physical mechanism, is charge supposed to collect on the Faraday cage? Nothing makes sense, except maybe, you are thinking of Casimir effect in some way? That there is a suppression of certain normal ZPE modes within cage? Then again, you have already pooh poohed that ZPE is involved at all. And for sure it would not create any charge accumulation even if that is what was being invoked. So please explain just how and why you think charge will accumulate at all.

The inner environment may be a near vacuum as well... to lower the amount of ambient charge with in the cage and increase the differential accordingly.

How is vacuum relevant?

 

[Quantum Quack]

It is the principle involved that the OP is about, not the cage. The cage is merely an example... of a possibility.

To create an under unity environment similar to what is naturally found in many circumstance. To work with the laws of thermodynamics and not against them..etc...

For example:
the moon/earth system sets up an "under unity" situation that the oceans of the Earth resolve by being tidal.
The behavior of tides resolves a need [under unity] created by the moons orbit [G].
When the tides do what they are supposed to do "unity " is constantly being achieved.
It is the differential that allows us to extract energy from the tidal forces of the ocean. [with out defying the laws of thermodynamics.] Because if the tidal flow was at unity there would be no capacity to extract energy from the Earth/ moon tidal system. [such as when the tides are still.]
The issue is more about clarifying what the term "unity" means, therefore understanding the principles in the context of unity or not regarding the laws of thermodynamics.

Let me ask a blunt yes /no question:
Do you believe there would be a charge or energy differential between the outside surface of the cage and the inside of the cage? Yes or No

 

[Q-reeus]

It is the principle involved that the OP is about, not the cage. The cage is merely an example... of a possibility.
To create an under unity environment similar to what is naturally found in many circumstance. To work with the laws of thermodynamics and not against them..etc...
For example:
the moon/earth system sets up an "under unity" situation that the oceans of the Earth resolve by being tidal.
The behavior of tides resolves a need [under unity] created by the moons orbit [G].
When the tides do what they are supposed to do "unity " is constantly being achieved.
It is the differential that allows us to extract energy from the tidal forces of the ocean. [with out defying the laws of thermodynamics.] Because if the tidal flow was at unity there would be no capacity to extract energy from the Earth/ moon tidal system. [such as when the tides are still.]
The issue is more about clarifying what the term "unity" means, therefore understanding the principles in the context of unity or not regarding the laws of thermodynamics.

As I stated elsewhere, you have a very nonstandard terminology. And struggling to interpret, my best guess is your definition of 'unity' simply means 'in equilibrium'. But it is not a consistently used term since you define over unity as violating thermodynamics while under unity does not. So I guess latter simply means 'not in mechanical or thermodynamic equilibrium'. Slowly changing orbital dynamics of earth-moon system linked to tides is one case. And that kind of situation has absolutely no translation over to case of a Faraday cage sitting in an ambient environment, which system fapp is in equilibrium aka 'unity'.

Let me ask a blunt yes /no question:
Do you believe there would be a charge or energy differential between the outside surface of the cage and the inside of the cage? Yes or No

No since a Faraday cage is by it's conductive nature an equipotential surface. Placed in an ambient environment it just sits there in equilibrium with that environment. And you have yet to offer any good reason to think otherwise.

 

[Quantum Quack]

As I stated elsewhere, you have a very nonstandard terminology. And struggling to interpret, my best guess is your definition of 'unity' simply means 'in equilibrium'. But it is not a consistently used term since you define over unity as violating thermodynamics while under unity does not. So I guess latter simply means 'not in mechanical or thermodynamic equilibrium'. Slowly changing orbital dynamics of earth-moon system linked to tides is one case. And that kind of situation has absolutely no translation over to case of a Faraday cage sitting in an ambient environment, which system fapp is in equilibrium aka 'unity'.

No since a Faraday cage is by it's conductive nature an equipotential surface. Placed in an ambient environment it just sits there in equilibrium with that environment. And you have yet to offer any good reason to think otherwise.

Yes searching for a good definition for the word "unity" is surprisingly difficult.
regarding the cage...


The fundamental error I was making was that I believed that the Faraday cage blocked charge from entering the inside, where as it actually neutralizes any internal charge present instead.
Thank you for your patience and my apologies for my ignorance. [and inadequate use of scientific pedagogy]