Possible Darwin Award...

[phlogistician]

Maybe you could point out what prejudice that is ? :shrug:

That you want to put all the responsibility on dog owners.

Not all dogs react like that to children, I know first hand.

You aren't listening are you. I didn't say all dogs. The point is, if a kid runs up to a dog they don't know, they also don't know how that dog will react. It's not about all dogs reacting a certain way, but the risk of running up to all dogs expecting them all to be socialised with children. Mine are, but some aren't, and when I stop kids and tell them about this, it's not because I am concerned my dogs will bite them, but that other dogs in the neighbourhood (like the Polish woman with the 140lb Rottweiler she cannot control) will. If her dogs bites a kid, next thing you know, all dog owners get stigmatised, even if a portion of the blame lies with the child or parent. People like you with your prejudices would propagate that.

If you can't control your dog then you shouldn't have one.

You are making NO effort to comprehend what I write, are you? It's not about my dogs, but how people approach dogs in general. Dogs they do not know the nature of. Here you show your prejudice, because you really are not taking in what I am explaining.

I would certainly not have blamed the dog, in this case the ex gf's sister was to blame.

I know you'd have blamed the dog, if you had not seen the child provoke the dog, because you are prejudiced.

Say you walk through the park with your dog.
A screaming kid runs by.
Your dog attacks the kid.
You would blame the parents ?? I can tell you that any court would sooner blame you than the parents of that kid.

Can we stop making my dogs the focus of this, I already told you mine are fine with kids. Parents, need to educate their children to not run screaming past or towards dogs they don't know, and get within biting range. I'm not talking about dogs running up to kids here, but kids running up to dogs. If someone ran towards you, or any other member of the public, screaming, there's a fair chance they would be met with aggression, and you would be an idiot if you tried to say in that circumstance you wouldn't be worried you were about to be attacked. So why expect dogs to behave differently to humans? To expect so is naive.

 

[phlogistician]

and rightly so.

Rightly so what? Enmos has taken this off on a tangent, because he cannot make his point otherwise. It's nto about kids playing in the park, but kids running towards dogs they dont know, thinking all dogs want to be petted.

This is what parents must educate their children about.

 

[phlogistician]

Domesticated animals..
And why not ? You want a dog, you are responsible for it.. why are you so resistant to that ?

The exact same sentiment goes for children. You want a child, it's your responsibility to make sure that child does not take unnecessary risks, and that includes running screaming towards dogs they don't know.

Please, if you don't get this simple point, don't have kids, you'd be an appalling parent.

 

[phlogistician]

How do you teach a child how to act around an animal if they don't have one?

It's simple, you talk to the child, and tell them not to run screaming towards dogs they don't know. It's that simple. You tell them that dogs can get spooked and that you must always ask before you try and pet them, and that you shouldn't wave your hands around near their eyes.

How would you control a child with a mental handicap?

Often the very same way you control a dog, I have seen many mentally handicapped kids controlled using reins. Stops them from wandering into the road, etc.

How do you teach a 2/3 yr old not to run towards a dog?

You explain it to them, reward them when they get it right, and tick them off when they get it wrong. The same way you train a dog, incidentally.

If your dog cannot be trusted around children, don't bring him around them. Its not fair to the dog for you to knowingly put him in that situation.

If your child is so excitable it runs up to every dog screaming, don't let it around dogs. In the situtations I have described from personal experience, my dogs have been on leads every single time. I am making the effort to control my dogs, but parents are rather feeble in their effort to educate and control theit children. In another instance, a child ran into the road, attempting to cross it, screaming 'doggie', and I double bollocked the parent for the lack of road crossing sense, plus running towards dogs the child didn't know. If you can teach your child 'doggie', you can teach it 'don't run towards doggie'

A last word; Life isn't consequence free, but the molly coddling attitude parents have sees all manner if negative results, because nobody is putting the responsiblity onto their kids or themselves, they always seek to blame a 3rd party. Well, us experienced and responsible dog owners aren't going to take the rap for you crap parents, so wise up.

 

[mikenostic]

Enmos,
You really need to watch a few documentaries about wolf packs and a few episodes of The Dog Whisperer.
When you approach a dog that you don't know, it is quite possible that dog can percieve you as challenging him, especially if you make eye contact with them. Dogs know their own pack and are sometimes protective of that pack. And if they see a screaming child running at them, LOOKING at them, then they go into defense/protect mode, which is often ill-assumed as aggressive behavior.
Of course dog owners need to be responsible for their dogs, but on the flipside, parents need to be responsible for and educate their children on animal/pet interaction as well.
I have dogs too. Mine are also friendly. However, since one of my dogs is a 90 lb Doberman, even children don't run up to him screaming. So I don't really have to worry about that. They are a bit intimidated of him, until they ask if they can pet him and I tell them, yes. He's very friendly.

How do you teach a child how to act around an animal if they don't have one?
How would you control a child with a mental handicap?
How do you teach a 2/3 yr old not to run towards a dog?

Gee, uhhh, PetSmart, PetCo, Pet Superstore, <insert any pet-oriented department store that allows customers to bring their pets with them>.
Taking your child to any of these stores and let him walk around and interact with pets that people bring in should cover all three of your questions there. You can even probably take him over to their adoption area and see if one of the clerks will let you and your child handle any kittens or puppies.

If your dog cannot be trusted around children, don't bring him around them. Its not fair to the dog for you to knowingly put him in that situation.

What situation? Didn't phlog say he was at a Pub? Now if the Pub allows both children and pets, then I'd say the burden of responsibility lies both on the parents and the dog owners. Parents should damn sure teach their children not to approach dogs they don't know. I've even heard that before when I was a kid, so it should be common knowledge. I guess not.
On the flipside, dog owners should always be aware of what their dog is doing, especially in a social setting. Sometimes dogs will misinterpret a human's actions. Not even the best owners can avoid that. But they can prevent it by keeping an eye on what your dog is doing; by watching his body language, his demeanor, etc. If he is constantly alert and not laying down and relaxed, then you have to watch him and ensure that he's relaxed.

 

[Enmos]

That you want to put all the responsibility on dog owners.

How is that prejudice ? It's just common sense when you know your dog can't handle kids.

You aren't listening are you. I didn't say all dogs. The point is, if a kid runs up to a dog they don't know, they also don't know how that dog will react. It's not about all dogs reacting a certain way, but the risk of running up to all dogs expecting them all to be socialised with children. Mine are, but some aren't, and when I stop kids and tell them about this, it's not because I am concerned my dogs will bite them, but that other dogs in the neighbourhood (like the Polish woman with the 140lb Rottweiler she cannot control) will. If her dogs bites a kid, next thing you know, all dog owners get stigmatised, even if a portion of the blame lies with the child or parent. People like you with your prejudices would propagate that.

People like me ? With my prejudices ? I have very little prejudices, I can tell you that without being arrogant.
You are doing a good job telling the kids not to act wildly around dogs they don't know. The parents would do good telling their kids as well, but you cannot expect them to do so.

You are making NO effort to comprehend what I write, are you? It's not about my dogs, but how people approach dogs in general. Dogs they do not know the nature of. Here you show your prejudice, because you really are not taking in what I am explaining.

I do know what you mean. But what are you so upset about ? Is it your worry about stigmatization ?

I know you'd have blamed the dog, if you had not seen the child provoke the dog, because you are prejudiced.

You are wrong..
In fact I think it's you that is prejudiced. You would have assumed the kid provoked the dog.

Can we stop making my dogs the focus of this, I already told you mine are fine with kids. Parents, need to educate their children to not run screaming past or towards dogs they don't know, and get within biting range. I'm not talking about dogs running up to kids here, but kids running up to dogs. If someone ran towards you, or any other member of the public, screaming, there's a fair chance they would be met with aggression, and you would be an idiot if you tried to say in that circumstance you wouldn't be worried you were about to be attacked. So why expect dogs to behave differently to humans? To expect so is naive.

Since you say screaming kids run up to dogs all the time I take it the dogs will be used to kids doing that..
Have you ever seen an adult react aggressively towards a kid that ran up to them screaming ?
Do you think dogs don't see the difference between kids and adults ?
Why is it that some dogs do not tolerate kids while others do ? Could it have something to do with the owners ?
"To expect so is naive", take your own advice then..

 

[Enmos]

Rightly so what? Enmos has taken this off on a tangent, because he cannot make his point otherwise. It's nto about kids playing in the park, but kids running towards dogs they dont know, thinking all dogs want to be petted.

This is what parents must educate their children about.

I have taken this off on a tangent ??

 

[Enmos]

The exact same sentiment goes for children. You want a child, it's your responsibility to make sure that child does not take unnecessary risks, and that includes running screaming towards dogs they don't know.

Please, if you don't get this simple point, don't have kids, you'd be an appalling parent.

Could you please stop referring to me as a horrible parent :bugeye:
I would teach kids not to do that, it's the smart thing to do. But you simply cannot expect people to.
And are you really putting dogs and humans on the same level here ??

 

[Enmos]

Enmos,
You really need to watch a few documentaries about wolf packs and a few episodes of The Dog Whisperer.
When you approach a dog that you don't know, it is quite possible that dog can percieve you as challenging him, especially if you make eye contact with them. Dogs know their own pack and are sometimes protective of that pack. And if they see a screaming child running at them, LOOKING at them, then they go into defense/protect mode, which is often ill-assumed as aggressive behavior.
Of course dog owners need to be responsible for their dogs, but on the flipside, parents need to be responsible for and educate their children on animal/pet interaction as well.
I have dogs too. Mine are also friendly. However, since one of my dogs is a 90 lb Doberman, even children don't run up to him screaming. So I don't really have to worry about that. They are a bit intimidated of him, until they ask if they can pet him and I tell them, yes. He's very friendly.

Mike I agree that it's the smart thing to do for parents, BUT you cannot expect them to. Dog owners bring dogs into a human environment, that's why they have the first responsibility.
Parents have responsibility to their kids, but they don't have to answer to a dog owner when their kid approaches a dog in the wrong way.

 

[Enmos]

I just want to say that in any reversed situation I will always blame the humans.
What I mean by that is if humans enter an alien environment they can't expect to be safe.
If a tiger in the wild attacks a human, it's the humans fault not the tigers etc.

In this thread it's about animals being brought into a human society. Now you cannot blame the animals, they know no responsibility. The humans that bring them into this human environment are responsible.

This is how I see it, anyway..

 

[phlogistician]

How is that prejudice ? It's just common sense when you know your dog can't handle kids.

It's prejudiced because I keep telling you mine can. I stop kids from running up to my dogs, not because I fear my dogs reaction, but that when my dogs don't react aggressively, and do allow themselves to be petted, the kids will go away with the impression that this will always be the case. Eventually, they will fall foul of this. Kids should always ask before petting dogs.

The parents would do good telling their kids as well, but you cannot expect them to do so.

I can expect it as much as you can expect dogs owners to make sure their dogs aren't aggressive. Like I said, reasonable people reach a compromise. I've tought my dogs not to run up to children and bark at them, so I expect parents teach their kids not to run at my dogs screaming.

I do know what you mean. But what are you so upset about ? Is it your worry about stigmatization ?

DUH! Maybe just! When there are stories in the news about dog attacks a big deal is made about them. Doesn't matter that one or two kids die due to dog attacks each year, when parents kill hundreds, because parents don't want to be policed, they want to demonise a 3rd party always.

You are wrong..
In fact I think it's you that is prejudiced. You would have assumed the kid provoked the dog.

I wouldn't call it, knowing kids and dogs. I wouldn't assume it was the dog, maybe you have heard of the legend of Gelert?

Since you say screaming kids run up to dogs all the time I take it the dogs will be used to kids doing that..

Not all the time, but too often. Mostly, savvy kids ask before petting, but there have been a dozen or so incidences in the six years I've had the pair I have where kids have done the wrong thing. If they do that too all dogs in this neighbourhood, they are going to get bit eventually, as not all of them as chilled out as mine.

Have you ever seen an adult react aggressively towards a kid that ran up to them screaming ?

What's that got to do with anything?

Do you think dogs don't see the difference between kids and adults ?

Of course they do, and most often, they are more scared of kids than adults, because children are noisy and unpredictable!

Why is it that some dogs do not tolerate kids while others do ? Could it have something to do with the owners ?

Fucking A, you finally get it. Yes, it's about the owners, and the dogs, and the fact that you DO NOT KNOW HOW A STRANGE DOG WILL REACT so you do not allow your kids to run up to strange dogs in case it's a crappy owner with a crappy humoured dog. You need two ingredients for this tragedy, a kid approaching a dog, and grumpy dog. As a parent, you cannot control the dog, but you can control the child. If you don't mix the ingredients, you don't get the tragedy. Do you get it now?

"To expect so is naive", take your own advice then..

I expect parents to put as much effort in as I do, not to expect a rose tinted, consequence free life where they can always blame a 3rd party and not themselves. I know kids get bitten, I'm not naive!

 

[phlogistician]

Dog owners bring dogs into a human environment, that's why they have the first responsibility.

See, prejudice, thinking that society revolves around those that choose to have children. The streets and parks and open spaces are for us all, nobody get priority.

Parents have responsibility to their kids, but they don't have to answer to a dog owner when their kid approaches a dog in the wrong way.

That is the exact thing they damned well have to do. You teach your kids how to cross the road safely, because you understand the dangers. This is the exact same thing. Believe me, if your kid runs up to my dogs screaming, you as a parent are going to get a lecture! In front of your kids too, how embarrassing!

 

[phlogistician]

Could you please stop referring to me as a horrible parent :bugeye:

If you intend to keep your kids ignorant of certain dangers, then yes, you are a crappy parent.

I would teach kids not to do that, it's the smart thing to do. But you simply cannot expect people to.

I can expect it as much as you expect people to socialise their dogs!

And are you really putting dogs and humans on the same level here ??

Seems you have higher expectations of the behaviour of a dumb animal, than you do of human children!

 

[phlogistician]

I have taken this off on a tangent ??

I was using my personal experiences to illustrate how stupid can be around animals;

Sure I can, and do. It's not just about pets though, is it, but animals in general. Parents are duty bound to teach their kids how to avoid danger, be it from pet dogs in the street, cows in a field, or tigers in a cage.

You however seem to be arguing that everybody else has responsibility for a child's welfare, bar the parents!

 

[Enmos]

It's prejudiced because I keep telling you mine can. I stop kids from running up to my dogs, not because I fear my dogs reaction, but that when my dogs don't react aggressively, and do allow themselves to be petted, the kids will go away with the impression that this will always be the case. Eventually, they will fall foul of this. Kids should always ask before petting dogs.

And I understand that your dogs can cope well with children.. I am not denying that one bit.

I can expect it as much as you can expect dogs owners to make sure their dogs aren't aggressive. Like I said, reasonable people reach a compromise. I've tought my dogs not to run up to children and bark at them, so I expect parents teach their kids not to run at my dogs screaming.

Parents can expect dog owners to teach their dogs not to be aggressive, dog owners can only ask parent to teach their kids not to run screaming at dogs.

DUH! Maybe just! When there are stories in the news about dog attacks a big deal is made about them. Doesn't matter that one or two kids die due to dog attacks each year, when parents kill hundreds, because parents don't want to be policed, they want to demonise a 3rd party always.

So then you aren't arguing for the wellbeing of the children at all ?

I wouldn't call it, knowing kids and dogs. I wouldn't assume it was the dog, maybe you have heard of the legend of Gelert?

I haven't, not interested either..

Not all the time, but too often. Mostly, savvy kids ask before petting, but there have been a dozen or so incidences in the six years I've had the pair I have where kids have done the wrong thing. If they do that too all dogs in this neighbourhood, they are going to get bit eventually, as not all of them as chilled out as mine.

I understand.. eventually they will run up to the wrong dog.
Isn't that 'wrong' dog then far more aggressive than the average dog ? And how come ?

What's that got to do with anything?

You said: "If someone ran towards you, or any other member of the public, screaming, there's a fair chance they would be met with aggression, and you would be an idiot if you tried to say in that circumstance you wouldn't be worried you were about to be attacked."
So when did you see any adult act aggressively when a kid run up to then screaming ? Dogs can also see that a kid is no adult, and thus not a direct thread. Dogs, like humans, gain life experience, no ?

Of course they do, and most often, they are more scared of kids than adults, because children are noisy and unpredictable!

Maybe young dogs or dogs that have been kept from interacting with humans when they were young.

Fucking A, you finally get it. Yes, it's about the owners, and the dogs, and the fact that you DO NOT KNOW HOW A STRANGE DOG WILL REACT so you do not allow your kids to run up to strange dogs in case it's a crappy owner with a crappy humoured dog. You need two ingredients for this tragedy, a kid approaching a dog, and grumpy dog. As a parent, you cannot control the dog, but you can control the child. If you don't mix the ingredients, you don't get the tragedy. Do you get it now?

Do I get it ?
This is what I've been arguing all the time now.
You have said here that it's the owners fault that the dogs bite. Then how is it not the responsibility of the owner ???

I expect parents to put as much effort in as I do, not to expect a rose tinted, consequence free life where they can always blame a 3rd party and not themselves. I know kids get bitten, I'm not naive!

It is the smart thing to do, I agreed with that.
Still it's the owners that are in error. You've said so yourself:
"Yes, it's about the owners, and the dogs, and the fact that you DO NOT KNOW HOW A STRANGE DOG WILL REACT so you do not allow your kids to run up to strange dogs in case it's a crappy owner with a crappy humoured dog."

 

[Enmos]

See, prejudice, thinking that society revolves around those that choose to have children. The streets and parks and open spaces are for us all, nobody get priority.

Human society revolves around humans, not dogs.
Dogs are the outsiders, just like humans are the outsiders in the animals world.
I fail to see how this is prejudice, but if you want to call it that be my guest.

That is the exact thing they damned well have to do. You teach your kids how to cross the road safely, because you understand the dangers. This is the exact same thing. Believe me, if your kid runs up to my dogs screaming, you as a parent are going to get a lecture! In front of your kids too, how embarrassing!

Yes, a lecture from you perhaps. But later on you will get the lecture, from the police most probably.

 

[Enmos]

If you intend to keep your kids ignorant of certain dangers, then yes, you are a crappy parent.

I think I have made it clear that I would teach them not to approach strange dogs.. ?
All I am saying is that the dog owners are to blame when they have a biter. Unless, of course, the dog was provoked (reasonably).

I can expect it as much as you expect people to socialise their dogs!

Sigh..

Seems you have higher expectations of the behaviour of a dumb animal, than you do of human children!

No, you are comparing dogs with children and are putting them on the same level.
Here:
"The exact same sentiment goes for children. You want a child, it's your responsibility to make sure that child does not take unnecessary risks, and that includes running screaming towards dogs they don't know.

Please, if you don't get this simple point, don't have kids, you'd be an appalling parent."

 

[Enmos]

I was using my personal experiences to illustrate how stupid can be around animals;

Your tone has been accusatory and very defensive from the beginning.

You however seem to be arguing that everybody else has responsibility for a child's welfare, bar the parents!

Not at all.. it is you that is arguing that everybody else has responsibility for a dogs actions, bar the owners.

 

[phlogistician]

Your tone has been accusatory and very defensive from the beginning.

Not at all, and again you show your prejudices. I have clearly stated that this issue is about dual responsibility, dog owners and parents, but you just fail, or refuse, to comprehend that.

Not at all.. it is you that is arguing that everybody else has responsibility for a dogs actions, bar the owners.

Not at all, and again you show your prejudices. I have clearly stated that this issue is about dual responsibility, dog owners and parents, but you just fail, or refuse, to comprehend that.

 

[phlogistician]

I think I have made it clear that I would teach them not to approach strange dogs.. ?

And my statement was prefixed with an IF. I wasn't saying you were a crappy parent, but that IF you met the condition, you were.

All I am saying is that the dog owners are to blame when they have a biter. Unless, of course, the dog was provoked (reasonably).

Which was a tangent from my post about kids running up to dogs they don't know. You didn't listen to my point, and just kept bleating.

No, you are comparing dogs with children and are putting them on the same level.
Here:
"The exact same sentiment goes for children. You want a child, it's your responsibility to make sure that child does not take unnecessary risks, and that includes running screaming towards dogs they don't know.

Again you show your total lack of comprehension. The parity was in the sentiment, not the comparison between children and dogs. I have a higher expectation of the behaviour of children, dogs being dumb animals!

Look kid, you are showing yourself up a bit here, let it go.