Pathetic Pathos: The Incel Hour

[parmalee]

The thing that is worth noting about incels (from what I've read of this self-identifying, online ''culture") is that their main problem doesn't seem to stem from being merely ''dateless,'' rather they are jealous of good looking ''bad guy'' types who seem to have an endless line of beautiful women waiting to climb onto them. Emphasis on the ''bad guy/player'' persona. Incels want to remain angry, embittered men and perceive their lack of luck with women, strictly due to their looks and financial status.

If only they could be effortlessly good looking, women wouldn't care if they were mean, and misogynistic.

What world do they live in? I mean, sure, there are plenty of women who seem to favor assholes (sadly, my sister is one of them--she married two extremely violent and abusive psychopaths), but I certainly haven't encountered many of them (women who favor assholes, that is). Incels are heterosexual males, and overwhelmingly white--these factors alone already privilege them enormously (in, pretty much, any and all respects). And the "fat, ugly, poor" spiel--have they not noticed that the vast majority of people are fat and "poor" (not wealthy)? Ugliness is largely subjective, but don't most people find most other people to not be terribly attractive? (I do, personally, but perhaps most consider most folks to be attractive? Don't know.)

 

[parmalee]

IMHO - it's entirely possible that the best choice is to ingore him.
if he's an incel, or he identifies as one, and he's promoting their beliefs, then it's about attention (Martyr/victim). Like a troll, he feeds off of the attention regardless.

Yeah. But we're, supposedly, not to regard people as ineducable and irredeemable. We do--or I do, at least--but I've been informed that I'm not a'sposed to.

 

[Bells]

IMHO, I don't think it's about women at all. It's about manipulation, domination and control, the keywords defining most serial offenders (especially in sexually related crimes), sociopaths, narcissists and some people with a borderline personality disorder. It's almost if they read "Control by false authority, manipulation, intimidation" by Steve Morris (angelfire) and decided to use it as a playbook.

so it's not about women in any way, shape or form. they chose women because they found it allows them the most attention and they've learned it's a useful tactic for manipulating (etc) others

Except that they are telling us, over and over again, that it is about women. They have also shown us, repeatedly, that it is about women.

Control and domination certainly play a part. But it is all about control and domination over women, or "sluts" and whatever other name you may wish to insert here to refer to us.

But what you may be missing is that they wish to control and dominate us and our bodies because they do not see us as being human beings. But make no mistake, it's about women and much they hate us.

Incels.me pinned the podcast to its homepage, and journalists began to reach out. Peterson fielded calls from some two dozen different media outlets who wanted to know about the role of incel culture in the Toronto attack. He tried to paint the movement as not inherently violent or sexist.

The response from his own community shocked him.

The message boards threw the interviews back in his face. One poster wrote that he wasn’t a “true” incel. They called him a “normie”, incel-speak for someone who isn’t. Others said he wasn’t even terribly ugly, nor was he a virgin. One wrote that in Peterson’s media appearances he put “100% blame on incels” instead of focusing on “how women’s behavior has changed”.

Peterson had tried to tell the world that the incels didn’t hate women – only for the incels to cry foul.

“The response I got,” he says, was: “‘You’re misrepresenting us: we really do hate women. We’re not joking.’”

[Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/19/incels-why-jack-peterson-left-elliot-rodger]​

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Why, when men tell us that hatred for women is the root of their violence, don’t we believe them? The École Polytechnique murderer, the Isla Vista murderer, the Yonge Street killer: these were misogynists by their own evidence. If we refuse to look for the common denominator, if these events are always going to be framed in terms of the perpetrator’s mental health or childhood trauma (which, yes, I know, are also often factors), then we can’t confront the radicalisation at the root of it all.

[...]

Incel boards have reacted to the Yonge Street massacre in different ways, but incels.me has users declaring the date of the attack “an absolutely glorious day”, celebrating the death of D’Amico, and hoping that there’s more violence to come. These spaces are puerile, yet they normalise violent misogyny and have the potential to radicalise socially isolated or vulnerable men. Some of the users are in it for the lulz; some of them are not joking. The latter become the Umpqua Community College murderer, the Isla Vista murderer, the Yonge Street killer. There’s a pattern here, and we can’t keep ignoring it.

[Source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/25/incels-violent-misogyny-toronto-facebook]

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Some of the fault, in their eyes, is with attractive men who have sex with too many women – “We need to do something about the polygamy problem,” said the Incelcast, an astonishing three-hour podcast about the Toronto attack – but, of course, the main problem is women themselves, who become foes as people, but also as a political entity. There is a lot of discussion about how best to punish them, with mass rape fantasies and threads on how to follow women without getting arrested, just for the thrill of having them notice you. Feminism is held responsible for a dude who can’t get laid, and birth control is said to have caused “women to date only Chads. It causes all sorts of negative social ramifications”.

[...]

From the way chatroom moderators respond to threats of violence against women, to the reluctance among authorities to name this as a terrorist threat, I am filled with this unsettling sense that because incels mainly want to kill, maim or assault women, they are simply not taken as seriously as if they wanted to kill pretty much anyone else. Doesn’t everyone want to kill women, sometimes, is the implication? Or at least give them a fright?

[Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/raw-hatred-why-incel-movement-targets-terrorises-women]
​

They have told us it is about women for years.

Those who have gone on to commit acts of violence have openly stated that it was because of women and their hatred of women.

Maybe it's time we start believing them instead of downplaying the misogyny that drives them.

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

Except that they are telling us, over and over again, that it is about women. They have also shown us, repeatedly, that it is about women.

and again, IMHO, it's not about women: it's about themselves, the attention they crave and their fantasy fulfilment.

If you take what they're saying, and you take what the violent ones have done in the past, you can classify them (Crime Classification Manual: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crimes) as sexual criminals attempting or succeeding in sexual predation and similar related crimes (individual/mass/spree/serial homicide, etc). They use the excuse of women (or the desired partner sex) as a justification for their actions. Incels can be female and homosexual (either sex), but like most sexual predators, it seems to be predominantly males acting against females. As Douglas has noted repeatedly in several publications, the sexual predatory crime boils down to their need to manipulate, dominate and control others, and in this case, the incel, being typically male and straight, targets females.

the target (eg. women) is not the reason they target, it's their justification.

Maybe it's time we start believing them instead of downplaying the misogyny that drives them.

I'm not downplaying their misogyny.

and you're correct: Incels dehumanise their targets. This was learned by Burgess , Douglas, Burgess, and Ressler during their interviews of serial offenders and criminals over the years and it doesn't just apply to incels, it applies to a whole group of criminals.

Violent crimes often originate with offender fantasies. This is particularly true for serial offenders. As they brood and daydream, they develop a more and more compelling need to express their violent fantasies.

not all incels are violent offenders
all incels, however, follow a potentially violent and dangerous ideology, much like other hate groups, that use the same tactics

 

[wegs]

That’s like saying racists really don’t have a problem with certain races, they’re just targets of something else.

Incels, most likely, have issues with their moms. No way I believe that incels have healthy relationships with their moms, sisters etc but hate “all other” women. Similar to misandrists who usually have significant issues with their fathers. Or lack of a positive male role model in their lives.

Hate isn’t born, it’s nurtured early on ...and then it finds a home with other hate-minded people. And then it flourishes into something powerful and scary. And reddit, 8chan and other online platforms, give these types a pulpit to “recruit” more to their way of thinking. That’s why it’s dangerous.

 

[Bells]

and again, IMHO, it's not about women: it's about themselves, the attention they crave and their fantasy fulfilment.

It can also be both....

I'm sorry, but when you have thousands of men saying 'it's about the women', and they show it is by killing women and threatening to abuse and kill women, to suggest that it's not really about women but really about themselves because they crave attention is bizarre to me... Attention from who?

The attention they crave is from women. Their fantasy is to harm women and dominate us because they feel that is their right.

They view women as commodities, to be used at their whim and leisure.

Incels are known to be contradictory. But the one constant within that group is their hatred of women. That is the one thing that binds them. The only true constant.

If you take what they're saying, and you take what the violent ones have done in the past, you can classify them (Crime Classification Manual: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crimes) as sexual criminals attempting or succeeding in sexual predation and similar related crimes (individual/mass/spree/serial homicide, etc).

But they are not seeking or committing sexual violence against their victims. They are simply murdering their victims. Incels are not rapists. Their commentary about rape or rape fantasies is for domination and to remind us of our place in their hierarchy. That we are barely human and thus, are not deserving of human rights or any rights whatsoever.

When they comment about ensuring women remember them after sleeping with them by punching the woman in the face after they cum inside her, it's not because of a sexual component and using sex to dominate and control. It's because they hate us and they want us to remember that. That we are a commodity, something they can use when they want to use.

We are talking about a bunch of men who view us as sluts and whores if we are sexually active or have had sex and refer to our vaginas as "roast beef" if we aren't virgins..

The mass killings we have seen has been to punish women for what they perceive to be our faults... To cause fear and terror and to make us pay.. To apparently make us realise that we have to change in regards to how we view them as a whole.. That we are the problem and not them.

They aren't sexual predators.

They are misogynists. They are driven by their misogyny.

To suggest it's not really about women makes absolutely no sense and there is no evidence to suggest that it is not about women. You are applying classifications to a group of people who we are only just starting to understand. They are not sexual predators. They have their own classification.

While "incel" used to cover a range of people who are celibate involuntarily for various reasons, the term now applies to the misogynists as they have adopted that term.

the target (eg. women) is not the reason they target, it's their justification.

Ummmm.....

I'm not downplaying their misogyny.

and you're correct: Incels dehumanise their targets. This was learned by Burgess , Douglas, Burgess, and Ressler during their interviews of serial offenders and criminals over the years and it doesn't just apply to incels, it applies to a whole group of criminals.

You are downplaying their misogyny by suggesting that it is not really the cause.

And look, I get it. This subject makes a lot of people uncomfortable, especially men.

Most criminals dehumanise their victims in a certain way.

Incels take it a notch higher and apply it to the whole. In other words, they aren't just dehumanising their victims. They dehumanise an entire gender.

There is a vast difference.

 

[parmalee]

They use the excuse of women (or the desired partner sex) as a justification for their actions. Incels can be female and homosexual (either sex), but like most sexual predators, it seems to be predominantly males acting against females.

You are confusing contemporary incels--who identify as a group-- with persons who are/were involuntarily celibate (for very different reasons), but have no alignment with and do not identify with (or as) these latter-day incels. Individuals who are involuntarily celibate can be any gender or sexual orientation; whereas this latter-day bunch who identify as "incels" are, by definition, male and heterosexual (and overwhelmingly white). I assure you that on the websites where these incels gather, there are no women and no homosexuals.

The term "incel" was coined in the 90's,, I believe, by an LGBTQ activist/advocate and referred to a much broader group of people. The term was coopted by some misogynist creeps and turned into a far less-inclusive hate group. In a similar fashion, the term "libertarian" was coopted by some Ayn Randian fuckwits, and turned into something scarcely resembling it's earlier meaning--a libertarian socialist used to make perfect sense, nowadays it's entirely nonsensical.

And, as Bells notes, they are not, definitionally, sexual predators--though they certainly may become predators. I've no doubt that sociopathic and narcissistic attributes are abundantly present amongst incels, and there's likely a significantly higher percentage of clinical sociopaths and narcissists among incels, but they are first and foremost characterized by their hatred of women.

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

And, as Bells notes, they are not, definitionally, sexual predators--though they certainly may become predators.

to be clear, I did clarify that at the end of my last post, before bells chimed in, and I'll post some more information below with regard to why I class the violent incels as sexual predators.

You are confusing contemporary incels--who identify as a group-- with persons who are/were involuntarily celibate (for very different reasons), but have no alignment with and do not identify with (or as) these latter-day incels.

Whereas I absolutely agree that the modern incel is predominantly male (already noted above) I'm viewing different sources of information over a broader spectrum than perhaps some are.

You are downplaying their misogyny by suggesting that it is not really the cause.

no, I'm not. And in no way do I advocate for or downplay their misogyny, or can you demonstrably prove that in some way? No, you can't.
so cut it out.

Incels take it a notch higher and apply it to the whole.

and you're preaching to the choir because I already stated as much - see also: Burgess , Douglas, Burgess, and Ressler
'nuff said?

But they are not seeking or committing sexual violence against their victims. They are simply murdering their victims. Incels are not rapists.

ya know, if you're not going to actually read what I'm posting, why are ya commenting on it?

a disproportionate number of serial homicides were sexual homicides, yet there was little or no rape involved. hence my reference to Burgess, Douglass, Burgess and Ressler. Feel free to also reference Prentky, Burgess et al 1989, Silva et al 2002 or the book The Psychology of Lust Murder by Purcell and Arrigo, not to mention the John Douglas books already mentioned earlier.

To suggest it's not really about women makes absolutely no sense and there is no evidence to suggest that it is not about women.

( parmalee, Bells) here is a gem from Myers, Hustead et al 2006:

The authors provide theoretical, empirical, evolutionary, and physiological support for the argument that serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure. The seeking of power and control over victims is believed to serve the two secondary purposes of heightening sexual arousal and ensuring victim presence for the crime. Anger is not considered a key component of these offenders’ motivation due to its inhibitory physiological effect on sexual functioning. On the contrary, criminal investigations into serial sexual killings consistently reveal erotically charged crimes, with sexual motivation expressed either overtly or symbolically. Although anger may be correlated with serial sexual homicide offenders, as it is with criminal offenders in general, it is not causative. The authors further believe serial sexual murderers should be considered sex offenders. A significant proportion of them appear to have paraphilic disorders within the spectrum of sexual sadism.

[emphasis mine]

Bells
my statements aren't arbitrary, nor are they "downplaying their misogyny", they're based upon what I am reading with regard to serial sexual homicides (for the violent incels) and the fact that I happen to be aware of more than just white male incel groups, including their origin which Parm has stated above.

the information gleaned over not only decades of research into these types of crimes combined with in-depth psychological research is a tad more scientific than your proclamations of "They aren't sexual predators" based upon media outlets claims and arbitrary statements of "when you have thousands of men saying 'it's about the women' ".

(clarification: I'm not saying that the results in any references apply to all incels, nor am I saying that the studies are gospel and definitive of all circumstances. I am saying that, like using Blacks Law dictionary for a legal definition, the choice of using an objective, empirical evidence-based perspective is far more logical than arbitrarily making a claim, sans reference, based upon "common knowledge", especially considering it was also once "common knowledge" that having a wet head causes the flu)

It can also be both....

I'm not saying women don't play into it any more than I'm saying Danny DeVito is taller than Wilt Chamberlain.

And look, I get it. This subject makes a lot of people uncomfortable, especially men.

what makes you think I'm uncomfortable with the subject? I probably have a set of experiences that are far more elucidating than reading the guardian and being biologically female.
Incels may not have been part of the criminal investigative curriculum or defined by the forensic courses when I was in school, but I see correlations between some of the more recent cases and historical investigations.

Ummmm.....

are Pyromaniacs arsonists?

Pyromania is a psychiatric diagnosis rather than a legal term. Individuals with pyromania engage in intentional and pathological firesetting, but do not always commit the crime of arson.
...Pyromania is a rare diagnosis, even among first-time and recidivist arsonists.3,7,24,28,31,32,39,49Set-ting fires for sexual arousal is even rarer.5,7,21,30,31,58,59

- Burton, McNeil, Binder 2012

The attention they crave is from women. Their fantasy is to harm women and dominate us because they feel that is their right.

They view women as commodities, to be used at their whim and leisure.

Incels are known to be contradictory. But the one constant within that group is their hatred of women. That is the one thing that binds them. The only true constant.

before we continue, if you are going to continue, perhaps you should link sources that aren't internet mass media - something more objective and empirical that can be verified?
The guardian does not in any way trump a peer-reviewed journal.
thanks

I don't care about what the quotes state they said any more than I care what Bundy, Dahmer, Manson or Berkowitz said. They've made a sh*tload of claims in the past that have absolutely nothing to do with reality, and until otherwise proven, I suspect most incels are the same, especially given the nature of the violent incel criminals actions (hence my references to Burgess et all above).


.

That’s like saying racists really don’t have a problem with certain races, they’re just targets of something else.

I think the above exchange spells it out a little more.
Incels, IMHO, are more like pyromaniacs - a psychological issue.

 

[parmalee]

before we continue, if you are going to continue, perhaps you should link sources that aren't internet mass media - something more objective and empirical that can be verified?
The guardian does not in any way trump a peer-reviewed journal.
thanks

I don't care about what the quotes state they said any more than I care what Bundy, Dahmer, Manson or Berkowitz said. They've made a sh*tload of claims in the past that have absolutely nothing to do with reality, and until otherwise proven, I suspect most incels are the same, especially given the nature of the violent incel criminals actions (hence my references to Burgess et all above).

Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot of academic research, as yet, on the phenomenon. The first peer-reviewed work (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224490109552083) was published in 2001--and the research was done in the late 90's. It was an entirely different thing back then, and included persons who were involuntarily celibate for a variety of reasons, not simply because they hate women and only want to "get sex" from super models. That work is hardly relevant here, and there's not much since.

 

[wegs]

Perhaps, it’s a mindset more than a label. In my opinion, Harvey Weinstein fits the incel mindset which is wrapped around hating women. Looking down at women and wanting to dominate them. If he were not a wealthy guy with status and connections, he would likely be in prison (although he could be heading there) because his mindset was already formed about women. Money and fame don’t create predators, it’s a mindset that exists perhaps since adolescence/teen years.

He likely would have been an incel if it weren’t for his fame and fortune.

 

[parmalee]

Perhaps, it’s a mindset more than a label. In my opinion, Harvey Weinstein fits the incel mindset which is wrapped around hating women. Looking down at women and wanting to dominate them. If he were not a wealthy guy with status and connections, he would likely be in prison (although he could be heading there) because his mindset was already formed about women. Money and fame don’t create predators, it’s a mindset that exists perhaps since adolescence/teen years.

He likely would have been an incel if it weren’t for his fame and fortune.

Or Trump, for that matter. A guy who inherited a few hundred million--and avoiding taxes by doing so through illegal channels--and turned it into... a few hundred million--over five decades! He could have made more money by putting it into an interest bearing chequing account!

Unfortunately, the mindset is pretty commonplace. It's just that only a small percentage go the incel route--or mgtow, mra, or any of that shit. The rest find other ways to channel their hatred.

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot of academic research, as yet, on the phenomenon.

on incels specifically, true, but considering the Crime Classification Manual, it's clear that their criminal acts towards women tend to replicate existing known sexually motivated crimes.

 

[Bells]

to be clear, I did clarify that at the end of my last post, before bells chimed in, and I'll post some more information below with regard to why I class the violent incels as sexual predators.

And there is no evidence to suggest that they are "sexual predators".

Their killing sprees have no sexual element or component. They are not deriving sexual pleasure out of it. Nor are they savouring it to masturbate to afterwards. They aren't going out and raping women. That is not what they are about. They may fantasize about rape, but that is more about punishing women, than anything else. Their rape fantasies that they write about all contain torture and pain for the woman. Not for their pleasure, but to make the bitches/sluts/whores/c*nts pay for what they perceive as being offenses against them in particular. It's not sexual. It's just pure hatred. They aren't getting off on it. They don't become aroused about it, nor do they find it arousing.

All it does is just add fuel to their rage.

Their murderous sprees have tended to be forms of suicide by cop, by attempting to kill as many women as they can before they are killed by police.

They have clearly made no plans to survive past their crimes.

So I still do not understand how you view them as sexual predators.

no, I'm not. And in no way do I advocate for or downplay their misogyny, or can you demonstrably prove that in some way? No, you can't.
so cut it out.

Their misogyny and hatred is what drives them.

It is the central tenet of their issues. It affects everything.

Your suggestion that it's not about the women, when they themselves say that it's about the women, and their actions show clearly that it is about the women, you are downplaying it. You are switching the focus onto something else entirely. Something that doesn't really apply here to be honest.

and you're preaching to the choir because I already stated as much - see also: Burgess , Douglas, Burgess, and Ressler
'nuff said?

Netflix has a lot to answer for...

Their desire to control and dominate is a major underlying issue with incels because that is how they want the world to be. However, you seem to be ignoring an important thing.. When they commit their crimes, they are not doing it to manipulate, dominate or control. They are doing it to punish women because they feel women are directly to blame for their issues..

Ergo:

the sexual predatory crime boils down to their need to manipulate, dominate and control others, and in this case, the incel, being typically male and straight, targets females.

Does not actually apply here.

my statements aren't arbitrary, nor are they "downplaying their misogyny", they're based upon what I am reading with regard to serial sexual homicides (for the violent incels) and the fact that I happen to be aware of more than just white male incel groups, including their origin which Parm has stated above.

the information gleaned over not only decades of research into these types of crimes combined with in-depth psychological research is a tad more scientific than your proclamations of "They aren't sexual predators" based upon media outlets claims and arbitrary statements of "when you have thousands of men saying 'it's about the women' ".

(clarification: I'm not saying that the results in any references apply to all incels, nor am I saying that the studies are gospel and definitive of all circumstances. I am saying that, like using Blacks Law dictionary for a legal definition, the choice of using an objective, empirical evidence-based perspective is far more logical than arbitrarily making a claim, sans reference, based upon "common knowledge", especially considering it was also once "common knowledge" that having a wet head causes the flu)

Firstly, these aren't sexual homicides.

At all.

When Elliot Rodger pounded on the doors of that sorority house, demanding to be allowed in as the women hid inside, he wasn't doing it because he wanted to get off on killing them, nor was he aroused by them, nor did he want to rape them.

He saw them as sluts and whores.

Animals who were not worthy of living...

"I concluded that women are flawed. There is something mentally wrong with the way their brains are wired, as if they haven’t evolved from animal-like thinking. They are incapable of reason or thinking rationally. They are like animals, completely controlled by their primal, depraved emotions and impulses. That is why they are attracted to barbaric, wild, beast-like men. They are beasts themselves. Beasts should not be able to have any rights in a civilized society. If their wickedness is not contained, the whole of humanity will be held back from advancement to a more civilized state. Women should not have the right to choose who to mate with. That choice should be made for them by civilized men of intelligence. If women had the freedom to choose which men to mate with, like they do today, they would breed with stupid, degenerate men, which would only produce stupid, degenerate offspring. This in turn would hinder the advancement of humanity. Not only hinder it, but devolve humanity completely. Women are like a plague that must be quarantined. When I came to this brilliant, perfect revelation, I felt like everything was now clear to me, in a bitter, twisted way. I am one of the few people on [sic] this world who has the intelligence to see this. I am like a god, and my purpose is to exact ultimate Retribution on all of the impurities I see in the world."​

Secondly, if anything, incels and their crimes would classify as hate crimes or even acts of terrorism.

Not sexual homicides.

 

[Bells]

what makes you think I'm uncomfortable with the subject? I probably have a set of experiences that are far more elucidating than reading the guardian and being biologically female.
Incels may not have been part of the criminal investigative curriculum or defined by the forensic courses when I was in school, but I see correlations between some of the more recent cases and historical investigations.

What you are seeing is 'they aren't getting sex' and then determining that it has to be sexual... Again, Netflix has a lot to answer for.

Not everything about power and domination with female victims amounts to sexual crimes. Incels are also deeply racist and homophobic. They follow supremacist ideology.

Male supremacy is an ideology with many faces. Its unifying thread is virulent, at times violent misogyny, and the practice of blaming women and a large feminist conspiracy for the ills of (mostly white) men today. Like other hate groups, male supremacist hate groups propagate conspiracies that see the world as a matriarchy propped up by “cultural Marxism” meant to eradicate or subjugate men. It is driven by the belief that men are entitled to a superior place in society than women, which are biologically and intellectually inferior — as a result, any advancement that women might have obtained is nothing more than a usurpation. Like white supremacy, male supremacy is driven by fear and anger at the loss of white male status.​

This is something that Elliot Rodger also commented on. His racial superiority.

"I came across this Asian guy who was talking to a white girl. The sight of that filled me with rage. I always felt as if white girls thought less of me because I was half-Asian, but then I see this white girl at the party talking to a full-blooded Asian. I never had that kind of attention from a white girl! And white girls are the only girls I’m attracted to, especially the blondes. How could an ugly Asian attract the attention of a white girl, while a beautiful Eurasian like myself never had any attention from them? I thought with rage. I glared at them for a bit, and then decided I had been insulted enough. I angrily walked toward them and bumped the Asian guy aside, trying to act cocky and arrogant to both the boy and the girl. My drunken state got the better of me, and I almost fell over to the floor after a few minutes of this. They said something along the lines that I was very drunk and that I needed to get some water, so I angrily left them and went out to the front yard, where the main partying happened. Rage fumed inside me as I realized that I just walked away from that confrontation, so I rushed back into the house and spitefully insulted the Asian before walking outside again."​

If you took the passage I quoted above - about women being flawed, that was actually in his (Elliot Rodger's) manifesto, and replaced "women" with 'blacks/Jews/Westerners/etc' and it was in a manifesto of someone who then went on a mass shooting and killing spree, you would not be suggesting it was a sexual crime. You'd call them a terrorist.

The hatred that terrorists and hate groups have for their victims is the same as what these incels have for their victims. The desire to control and subjugate their victims is the same as what incels have openly declared they feel and want to do to their victims.

They are designated as a hate group for a reason.

“No functioning, healthy society would allow Pulse—or the kinds of men who frequented it—to exist…. No healthy society would mourn their passing. Indeed, depending on your perspective, Mateen was just taking out the trash, eliminating societal parasites via natural selection…. When a man and a woman are attracted to one another, they are seeing the continuation of their tribe and the formation of the next generation... Babies are produced by heterosexual relationships; all homo relationships ever produce is cum.”
— Matt Forney, “The Orlando Nightclub Shooting and the Moral Sickness of Whites,” Matt Forney blog, June 2017

“Women should be terrorized by their men; it’s the only thing that makes them behave better than chimps.”
— Matt Forney under the pseudonym Ferdinand Bardamu, “The Necessity of Domestic Violence,” In Mala Fide blog, 2012​

And it has nothing to do with sexual deviancy.

Nor is it driven by sexual deviancy.

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

And there is no evidence to suggest that they are "sexual predators".

Their killing sprees have no sexual element or component. They are not deriving sexual pleasure out of it. ...

So I still do not understand how you view them as sexual predators.

and again, because you missed it:

The authors provide theoretical, empirical, evolutionary, and physiological support for the argument that serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure. The seeking of power and control over victims is believed to serve the two secondary purposes of heightening sexual arousal and ensuring victim presence for the crime. Anger is not considered a key component of these offenders’ motivation due to its inhibitory physiological effect on sexual functioning. On the contrary, criminal investigations into serial sexual killings consistently reveal erotically charged crimes, with sexual motivation expressed either overtly or symbolically. Although anger may be correlated with serial sexual homicide offenders, as it is with criminal offenders in general, it is not causative. The authors further believe serial sexual murderers should be considered sex offenders. A significant proportion of them appear to have paraphilic disorders within the spectrum of sexual sadism.

[emphasis mine]

regardless of their choice to suicide by cop (manipulation, domination, control), they've chosen to kill for sadistic pleasure and they're seeking power and control over the victim (in their case, all women because of their rejection by a few).

Your suggestion that it's not about the women

a narcissist, especially a psychotic one, will always blame anything but their own fucked up delusional behaviour.

Netflix has a lot to answer for...

what does netflix have to do with anything?

Their desire to control and dominate is a major underlying issue with incels because that is how they want the world to be. However, you seem to be ignoring an important thing.. When they commit their crimes, they are not doing it to manipulate, dominate or control. They are doing it to punish women because they feel women are directly to blame for their issues..

and again, because you missed it:

The authors provide theoretical, empirical, evolutionary, and physiological support for the argument that serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure. The seeking of power and control over victims is believed to serve the two secondary purposes of heightening sexual arousal and ensuring victim presence for the crime. Anger is not considered a key component of these offenders’ motivation due to its inhibitory physiological effect on sexual functioning. On the contrary, criminal investigations into serial sexual killings consistently reveal erotically charged crimes, with sexual motivation expressed either overtly or symbolically. Although anger may be correlated with serial sexual homicide offenders, as it is with criminal offenders in general, it is not causative. The authors further believe serial sexual murderers should be considered sex offenders. A significant proportion of them appear to have paraphilic disorders within the spectrum of sexual sadism.

[emphasis mine]

Does not actually apply here.

"The authors provide theoretical, empirical, evolutionary, and physiological support for the argument that serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure. The seeking of power and control over victims is believed to serve the two secondary purposes of heightening sexual arousal and ensuring victim presence for the crime."

Secondly, if anything, incels and their crimes would classify as hate crimes or even acts of terrorism.

it is classed as such. it is just not always prosecuted as such. that gets into the old argument of injustice wherein the definition of legality gets involved

(2) Offenses involving actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.— (A) In general.—Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, in any circumstance described in subparagraph (B) or paragraph (3), willfully causes bodily injury to any person or, through the use of fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device, attempts to cause bodily injury to any person, because of the actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person—

18 U.S.C § 249.

Not sexual homicides.

the fact that an incel targets any class of victim that is his sexual desire makes it a sexually motivated hate crime, plus, per the above quotes, "serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure. The seeking of power and control over victims is believed to serve the two secondary purposes of heightening sexual arousal and ensuring victim presence for the crime."

What you are seeing is 'they aren't getting sex' and then determining that it has to be sexual... Again, Netflix has a lot to answer for.

1- I rarely watch TV at all, and usually, it's a britcom when I do. no netflix, ever.
2- what I am seeing is that "an incel targets any class of victim that is his sexual desire", making it a sexually motivated crime because, and again, let me quote this, "serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure."

that is what makes it a sexually motivated crime. as you so readily repeat:

He saw them as sluts and whores

They are doing it to punish women because they feel women are directly to blame for their issues..

those two major points directly point to narcissistic sadism. They want to punish because they're sadistic. They target women because they're the object of their sadistic manipulations. They continue to spread their hate or make claims (like in your quotes) in order to continue inflicting "psychological sufferingon another".

they say what they do literally to inflict as much psychological suffering on another as they can - you know, like a sexual predator that is narcissistic and sadistic would do

They are designated as a hate group for a reason.

moving the goalpost?
I never said the incel group wasn't a hate group - per 18 U.S.C § 249, they are definitely classifiable as one.

If you took the passage I quoted above - about women being flawed, that was actually in his (Elliot Rodger's) manifesto, and replaced "women" with 'blacks/Jews/Westerners/etc' and it was in a manifesto of someone who then went on a mass shooting and killing spree, you would not be suggesting it was a sexual crime. You'd call them a terrorist

I'd call both terrorists, however, I call the incel a sexual predator terrorist. Just like you can be a spree and serial murderer - [reference: CRITICAL INCIDENT RESPONSE GROUP FBI Academy Quantico, Virginia JUNE 1998 - CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE ANALYSIS
Criminal Profiling: A Viable Investigative Tool Against Violent Crime Criminal Profiling from Crime Scene Analysis Offender]

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

And it has nothing to do with sexual deviancy.

Nor is it driven by sexual deviancy.

So I still do not understand how you view them as sexual predators.

you're thinking erotophonophilia whereas I'm specifically stating there is evidence demonstrating "anger and sadism are important concepts in the motivation for extreme acts of sexual violence" and that, given your own presented information plus the classification manuals profiling these types offenders, I class them as the evidence presents per DOJ (etc)

Regarding the profiles of perpetrators of sexual homicide, findings across studies have been consistent in identifying two main types of offenders who kill victims in association with some type of sexual assault: those primarily motivated by anger or revenge and those motivated by a sadistic sexual drive. There is accumulating evidence to support the view that anger and sadism are important concepts in the motivation for extreme acts of sexual violence; each pathway to sexual homicide apparently has a distinctive set of risk-related and clinically related factors that must be identified when planning offender treatment. The literature is consist in concluding that the majority of sexual murderers, even those detained in forensic psychiatric hospitals, do not suffer from a major mental illness. Personality disorders are more common. There is mixed opinion, however, about the nature of that pathology. Psychopathic traits, paraphilic, and paraphilia-related disorders are also common and should be assessed during treatment development.

[sic] Sexual Homicide: Definition, Motivation and Comparison with Other Forms of Sexual Offending - Kerr; Beech; Murphy 2013

you don't have to get off on murder to be classed as above

 

[Bells]

regardless of their choice to suicide by cop (manipulation, domination, control), they've chosen to kill for sadistic pleasure and they're seeking power and control over the victim (in their case, all women because of their rejection by a few).

And it still does not apply because they are not getting any sadistic pleasure out of it.

Have you read anything about incel murderers to suggest that they are? Have you read their manifestos?

In the lead up to his killing spree, Elliot Rodger had already decided on his course of action. He decided to practice using a handgun:

"I walked into the range, rented a handgun from the ugly old redneck cashier, and started to practice shooting at paper targets. As I fired my first few rounds, I felt so sick to the stomach. I questioned my whole life, and I looked at the gun in front of me and asked myself “What am I doing here? How could things have led to this?” I couldn’t believe my life was actually turning out this way. There I was, practicing shooting with real guns because I had a plan to carry out a massacre. Why did things have to be this way, I silently questioned myself as I looked at the handgun I was holding in front of me. I paid my fee and left the range within minutes, feeling as if I was going to be sick."​

There's no sense of pleasure, sadistic or otherwise here.

What we have is a rage fueled hate, that he saw his committing a massacre was the only way to highlight what he saw as a great wrong. And he saw his "day of retribution" as a way to cleanse the world of those he saw as having ruined it, because they rejected him and did not appreciate his self worth.

Your quote, which you highlighted with emphasis added and you keep demanding I read this (I already had and had dismissed it for what should have been obvious reasons), states this:

The authors provide theoretical, empirical, evolutionary, and physiological support for the argument that serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure. The seeking of power and control over victims is believed to serve the two secondary purposes of heightening sexual arousal and ensuring victim presence for the crime. Anger is not considered a key component of these offenders’ motivation due to its inhibitory physiological effect on sexual functioning. On the contrary, criminal investigations into serial sexual killings consistently reveal erotically charged crimes, with sexual motivation expressed either overtly or symbolically. Although anger may be correlated with serial sexual homicide offenders, as it is with criminal offenders in general, it is not causative.​

What?

And I am left to ask... Have you actually read anything that incels write? At all?

Anger and rage is a key component to their actions. Their hatred of women motivates them. Their motivation is not sexual. At all. They are not deriving any pleasure out of it. Hate and anger is what motivated them. It's what drove them. Elliot Rodger's manifesto was a rage filled scribe, detailing repeatedly, how angry and rage filled he was that white sluts chose to be with others instead of him, that sluts and whores were barely human and thus should not have any choice or say, that these sluts and whores could reject him, and how dare they...

What you keep referencing and demanding I pay attention to is direct proof of why their killings are not sexualised murders or sexual homicides.

a narcissist, especially a psychotic one, will always blame anything but their own fucked up delusional behaviour.

And they blame women.

Women, misogyny and rage.

That is what we are dealing with. And it's a movement. These men are literally being radicalised online. But it's not religious or political ideology. It's misogyny.

what does netflix have to do with anything?

Mindhunter..

Made that book very popular. So much so that people such as yourself keep classifying everything as 'sexual', when it is not.

Not every act of violence against women that sees the woman die is a sexual homicide. You are applying a profile that befits a serial sexual murderer, to an incel. And then saying:

so it's not about women in any way, shape or form. they chose women because they found it allows them the most attention and they've learned it's a useful tactic for manipulating (etc) others

You keep repeating this, like a mantra:

"The authors provide theoretical, empirical, evolutionary, and physiological support for the argument that serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure. The seeking of power and control over victims is believed to serve the two secondary purposes of heightening sexual arousal and ensuring victim presence for the crime."

Is further evidence that it's not a sexual homicide. Incel killers like Rodger and Minassian sought retribution. There was no sadistic pleasure. They didn't get off on it or on the thought of doing it. They weren't aroused by the very thought of killing, nor were they aroused by the act itself. Quite the contrary. Elliot Rodger details how he nearly threw up the first time he held a handgun, because he knew what his end game was. He didn't nearly vomit because he was on the verge of ejaculating, nor did he become aroused to the point of throwing up. He was horrified by the prospect, but he was so angry and full of rage and hatred, that he saw it as his duty to cleanse the world. To make women pay. Anger and rage and hatred is what made them do it. They wanted to punish women and cleanse and purify the world.

You keep quoting something that doesn't even come close to classifying or being a profile for incels. You are posting something that is the utter opposite of an incel. Serial killers profiled in the book you keep ramming down our throats actually loved women. They got off on causing them pain. That is what made their serial murders 'sexual homicides'. They often kept trophies, they masturbated over it.

Incels don't do that. At all. Incels see women as being something that need to be purged and the best way to control them is to terrorise them.. Hence the acts of violence. To show women what these men are capable of. What do you think they mean by the "incel rebellion"? A wankathon?

I question your motives here at this point, to be honest.

 

[Bells]

it is classed as such. it is just not always prosecuted as such. that gets into the old argument of injustice wherein the definition of legality gets involved

The only one who has been caught alive is Minassian, in Canada and he was charged with murder. The other incel killers are dead.

There is a push to classify these killings as acts or forms of terrorism. And with good reason.

The Facebook post “situates the attack as extremist and terrorist,” says J.M. Berger, an expert at the International Center for Counter-Terrorism in the Hague. “Misogyny isn’t new, and ideological misogyny isn’t new. Having a distinct movement that is primarily defined by misogyny is [fairly] novel.”​

The reason Miassian's post is seen as that of an extremist and terrorist is because he was inciting others to do the same, in the name of misogyny when he declared "the incel rebellion has begun". Online incel communities lit up like Christmas trees as they attempted to determine the extent and if it had in fact begun.

This is a movement.

And serial sexual killers don't belong to movements who encourage and incite violence against women. Yet another reason and explanation as to why incel mass murders are not serial sexual homicides.

the fact that an incel targets any class of victim that is his sexual desire makes it a sexually motivated hate crime, plus, per the above quotes, "serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure. The seeking of power and control over victims is believed to serve the two secondary purposes of heightening sexual arousal and ensuring victim presence for the crime."

Once again, incels do not get any sadistic pleasure out of killing their victims.

Serial killers will often torture their victims, and stalk them beforehand, that is where they get their pleasure and the control comes from killing them. They will often pick their victims beforehand.

Incels commit mass murder to punish women. They aren't stalking or picking particular women to kill. Rodger shot people walking in the street, tried to get into a sorority house, failed and just shot random people in the street, as well as his flatmates. Minassian drove a van into a bunch of people on the road. Neither of them found it arousing. None of them got any form of pleasure out of it. Quite the contrary, Rodger, who Minassian referred to, described in intricate detail just how sick he felt about it, but he had to do it because women are not really human and they rejected him, so all women had to pay, because all women are to blame for his not finding a "mate". He saw it as a purge. Minassian's reference to the "incel rebellion" was not about sticking their dicks into vagina's. It was about purging the world of women. Cleansing the world of women they saw as being the cause of their misfortune.

1- I rarely watch TV at all, and usually, it's a britcom when I do. no netflix, ever.
2- what I am seeing is that "an incel targets any class of victim that is his sexual desire", making it a sexually motivated crime because, and again, let me quote this, "serial sexual murderers above all commit their crimes in pursuit of sadistic pleasure."

Yes, that's why Rodger killed his housemates and their friend, then shot random people walking down the street and it's why Minassian drove a van into a bunch of people, mostly women, including a woman in her 80's, because that's what he sexually desired.

You are applying "SERIAL MURDERERS" to mass spree killers with very very different motivations...

I'll put it this way.

Would you compare Jeffery Dahmer to Dylan Roof? Are they the same kind of killer to you?

No, you would not. Because what motivated them to kill are vastly different.

Dylan Roof is more closely linked to Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian. All three are driven by hatred and prejudice. All three saw their victims as being sub-human. All three wanted to rid the world of the likes of their victims. All three wanted to purge the world of the likes of their victims.

You are demanding that we lump Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian to the likes of Jeffery Dahmer..

I mean, literally, at this point, I have to query what's motivating you to keep pushing something that is so blatantly and provably wrong?

those two major points directly point to narcissistic sadism. They want to punish because they're sadistic. They target women because they're the object of their sadistic manipulations. They continue to spread their hate or make claims (like in your quotes) in order to continue inflicting "psychological sufferingon another".

they say what they do literally to inflict as much psychological suffering on another as they can - you know, like a sexual predator that is narcissistic and sadistic would do

Please, for the love of all that is holy, read their manifesto's, and read up on incels before you apply profiling that directly apply to serial killers like Jeffery Dahmer and Ted Bundy, to incel spree mass murderers.

Once again, incel killers got no sadistic pleasure out of killing their victims. They are driven solely by their misogyny and rage. Serial sexual murderers that you keep demanding applies to them, literally got sexual pleasure out of their murders. They masturbated to it. They got off on it. They fantasised about it sexually.. They wanted to control their individual victims and over power them, because that's what made them become aroused. They often raped their victims and tortured them.

Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian were not aroused by their victims. Nor did they derive any sexual pleasure in causing them harm. They killed whoever they could in a short period of time because they hated women. They didn't want to have sex with those women. They saw those women as being sub-human, sluts and whores and bitches who they felt wielded too much power. Incels distinctly argue that the world has to dispose of women, feminists and homosexuals and good looking men. They, as a group, must rise to the top. Women have to learn and know their place in society, to be beneath them. Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian committed their crimes with the expectation that they would be killed by police. When Minassian was arrested, he tried to do everything he could to get the police to shoot him. He even faked pointing a gun at police in his bid to get them to kill him and he begged them to kill him.

And you want us to compare them to serial killers who wank over torturing and murdering their victims because they were able to overpower their individual victims and they got off on not only that, but never getting caught?

I don't think there's an eyeroll big enough to apply here right now..

 

[pluto2]

and again, because you missed it: [emphasis mine]

regardless of their choice to suicide by cop (manipulation, domination, control), they've chosen to kill for sadistic pleasure and they're seeking power and control over the victim (in their case, all women because of their rejection by a few).

That's not true at all.

It's not true that Incels hate all women.

Elliot Rodger was offended because he was rejected by tons of pretty young girls that he found very attractive but these girls (for some reason) just didn't find him attractive.

And what also happened is that Eliot Rodger saw those pretty young girls being repulsed by him but giving all their love and affection to other men but never to him.

When a guy gets rejected by millions of women then you can't blame him for feeling a lit bit hurt and angry about that and wanting to change that.

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

And it still does not apply

There was no sadistic pleasure.

There's no sense of pleasure, sadistic or otherwise here

And they blame women.

Women, misogyny and rage.

You keep repeating this, like a mantra

Have you read their manifestos?

dafuq?
So, what you're saying is: we should take the "manifesto" of a criminally delusional homicidal maniac as gospel?
really?
I don't think there's an eye-roll big enough to apply here right now...

Elliot Rodger's manifesto was a rage filled scribe, detailing repeatedly, how angry and rage filled he was that white sluts chose to be with others instead of him, that sluts and whores were barely human and thus should not have any choice or say, that these sluts and whores could reject him, and how dare they...

wow. that's not narcissistic at all!

You are applying "SERIAL MURDERERS" to mass spree killers with very very different motivations...

no. I am applying criteria based on sexually motivated criminal acts to the incels. in point of fact, their sadistic targeting women and their relations is part of the classification making it a psychosexual disorder

You are demanding that we lump Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian to the likes of Jeffery Dahmer..

And you want us to compare them to serial killers who wank over torturing and murdering their victims because they were able to overpower their individual victims and they got off on not only that, but never getting caught?

no.
I am saying, very specifically, that, per the above references, you can profile the incel killings, and I provided references
(see also: Serial Murder, Multi-Disciplinary Perspectives for Investigators - Behavioral Analysis Unit-2, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime)

however, what you're saying, apparently, is that we should take the manifesto of a delusional psychotic as gospel, never considering that their writings are demonstrative of anything other than what is literally presented to justify their idiocy, just like we did with the Unabomber and Manson. Surely there are no clues to their psychotic disorders in the writings and we should take their explanations as definitive...

Incels commit mass murder to punish women.

no spree killing incel has acted in the hopes of living in anonymity.

That's not true at all.

It's not true that Incels hate all women.

I'm not the one saying all incels hate all women.

When a guy gets rejected by millions of women then you can't blame him for feeling a lit bit hurt and angry about that and wanting to change that.

1- surely you're using hyperbole? (millions?)
2- rejection may well be painful, but my statements are targeting the idiot incels who act on their aggression with violence.

there are plenty of incels out there who aren't violent and can be rehabilitated by going to a psychologist, and there are some who have been rehabilitated from their self-induced state.