Open note for Moderators

[Neverfly]

Moderators in question:
Glaucon- Mod for Philosphy section. (I may be wrong on his jurisdiction...thread is Ethics, Morality and Justice.)
James R
Stryder (As 'super Mod')
Tiassa
PlazmaInferno

This is an open note, as attempting to resolve the issue over P.M. with the mod in question (who is listed above) had demonstrated itself to be useless.
I had also P.M.'d James R on this issue, but simply put; I'm pissed off and am resisting the urge to inundate moderators P.M. Inboxes with a whole lot of drama when they are busy or as James R addressed, he has been feeling a bit under the weather and hasn't had a lot of time lately.

Due to my own indignation on the issue, I'm feeling more than a little impatient to have it resolved- So of the above list, if the jurisdiction applies, this is a request for other Moderators/Admin/supermods to weigh in and determine merit of argument. I cannot effectively do so if the conversation with one individual in which I have the complaint is infuriating.

I have asked for and received permission from this mod to share our P.M.'s for this issue and conversation privately, with other Mods.

 

[Chipz]

Trippy's gone crazy again, eh?

 

[James R]

Neverfly:

Do you wish to make this a public issue? If so, please say so and all the moderators can post all relevant PM communicatons on the matter from you to this thread, so everybody can take a look.

 

[Neverfly]

Neverfly:

Do you wish to make this a public issue? If so, please say so and all the moderators can post all relevant PM communicatons on the matter from you to this thread, so everybody can take a look.

If the Mods prefer it be kept within P.M., I quote my post:

I have asked for and received permission from this mod to share our P.M.'s for this issue and conversation privately, with other Mods.

If all the mods prefer it to be public- I am fine with that as well.

I believe this:

Trippy's gone crazy again, eh?

...is why I offered privacy on it.
Chipz, no, Trippy is not involved. No one has gone 'crazy.' There is a definite difference of opinion, however, that I'd like to have examined.

Since P.M.ing Mods has had no effect and since as I said, James R, you cited yourself as indisposed ( I did say take your time.) ; I directed more OPEN attention to the issue.

 

[Bells]

Since P.M.ing Mods has had no effect and since as I said, James R, you cited yourself as indisposed ( I did say take your time.) ; I directed more OPEN attention to the issue.

Open attention to the issue...

Neverfly, the issue had been resolved. He responded to you by PM and explained his reasons and why he posted what he did. It was very detailed and precise.

You can't also expect everyone to jump instantly when you say 'jump'. He may not have had time to respond to you again or he may be busy.

Let it go..

Move on..

 

[kwhilborn]

I don't have to agree with your views on science to agree that Moderator action should be held accountable- At this point, you can relfect on what you do have control over- YOU-- and sometimes, the world isn't fair...

I've dealt with absurd injustices on many forums- been banned from quite a few for FIGHTING BACK- not even having been wrong on them (Though two will bend over backwards justifying it anyway.)

Science forums may promote some scientific views- but they are not Fair Public Forums. It's just the way it is and sometimes, you just gotta deal with the fact that those in power will use it. I hate it too.

Your words

 

[Neverfly]

Open attention to the issue...

Neverfly, the issue had been resolved. He responded to you by PM and explained his reasons and why he posted what he did. It was very detailed and precise.

You can't also expect everyone to jump instantly when you say 'jump'. He may not have had time to respond to you again or he may be busy.

Let it go..

Move on..

The question is this:
If something can be, with a bit of work, presented in a way to give a certain meaning; does that make that meaning absolute? If that meaning is a very, very negative accusation, should that contrived interpretation be allowed to persist?
If there's evidence that that contrived interpretation is not accurate, should it not be questioned?

To describe events that misrepresent what was actually said, include it as a character accusation and then Slam The Door Shut on the issue- I find pretty intolerable. Yes, I am resistant to that.

If all the Mods chime in and say, "We do not care and have no desire to assist in helping this one Moderator to see that what he has done is a bit- out of line" then I will drop the issue.
But I will remember it. I will remember that the Mods here- do not care.

Lastly, the P.M. was very long- he took his time. It was long and detailed but not precise. The specific wording he used demonstrated a complete inflexibility on his part. So his availability was not an issue. I Asked him to set a time for me to confront it- I did confront it- his response was one of which: I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with facts."

My confrontation of a wrong does not make me a trouble-maker.

Edit:
To other members, If anyone wishes to intrude on the thread in order to attack other moderators- Make Your Own Thread. Please do not clutter this one with off topic issues- you have the option of doing just as I had
P.M. the parties involved, if that is unproductive, start a thread here.

 

[Neverfly]

Your words

Yes. And nothing I have said contradicts that.

I said, Mods need to be held accountable. They are only human and can make human errors.
I said I have a tendency to fight back.

I also said that if all the mods agree that they care to not assist in resolving the disagreement, I will let it go. But I'll remember- which is what I said in that post.
Sometimes it is not fair and sometimes they will use that power. And I hate it.

 

[Bells]

If all the Mods chime in and say, "We do not care and have no desire to assist in helping this one Moderator to see that what he has done is a bit- out of line" then I will drop the issue.
But I will remember it. I will remember that the Mods here- do not care.

And if the other moderators do not think he was out of line with what he said? Will you drop it then?

Neverfly, as the issue was happening, the moderators were made aware of it, because I sought a review of our interaction and that particular post.

I am trying to put this gently to you. I even explained to you by PM why we thought what you said came off as it did.

You obviously disagree with his assessment of your post. It happens sometimes.

As for the time issue..

Just because he put time into his response for you does not mean that he then sits there waiting for you to respond. If he is like me, he responds and then he's probably off doing something else and then check PM's again on another day when he is next online. We do have lives outside of this forum and to expect an instant response is, well, unreasonable. I won't even go into the whole time zone issue (since many of us are from different time zones).

 

[Neverfly]

And if the other moderators do not think he was out of line with what he said? Will you drop it then?

If all the mods agree that he is not out of line, I would PREFER them to explain how a contrived accusation can be so justified.
If not and they say the matter is closed- It will be closed. But again, I will remember how that went.
Listen, I think it's better to resolve and understand- discuss- and I think you and I have talked about that, too. I thought that was productive... All I want is it to be examined objectively, not a reason for making an assumed accusation justified and then closed off to any defense.

I do not wish to argue or fight and I want to avoid that. I KNEW if I continued to talk to that mod in the P.M. I would fight in a P.M.

I made this decision to help avoid that.

I am trying to put this gently to you. I even explained to you by PM why we thought what you said came off as it did.

Yes, we also covered that there are two separate issues. One understood pretty well and closed by all parties satisfactorily.
One is not.

You obviously disagree with his assessment of your post. It happens sometimes.

Yes, but does "it happens sometimes" mean I can be allowed no discussion to resolve it?

As for the time issue..

Just because he put time into his response for you does not mean that he then sits there waiting for you to respond. If he is like me, he responds and then he's probably off doing something else and then check PM's again on another day when he is next online. We do have lives outside of this forum and to expect an instant response is, well, unreasonable. I won't even go into the whole time zone issue (since many of us are from different time zones).

Time is not the problem.
I admit to impatience, but impatience had nothing to do with time. Had he responded well, I'd be a lot more patient.
It was his response that made me Impatient.
Because his response stated Clearly that he had no intention of examining the idea that he may be in error.

 

[Chipz]

Neverfly, I promise you. There are more important things in life than disrespect on an internet forum. You will grow to appreciate them, and I hope realize how silly resentment is.

 

[Neverfly]

Neverfly, I promise you. There are more important things in life than disrespect on an internet forum. You will grow to appreciate them, and I hope realize how silly resentment is.

Nope.
Nope.
no
Nope.
no.
no.
No.
No.
NO!
NO!NO!NO!NO!HeeHawww!HeeHaww!


The words I write on a forum is Me. It is an extension, it represents who I am. My thoughts, my ideas, my misconceptions, my learning, my attitudes... I have a low tolerance for having it altered, taken away, edited by others or misrepresented. I can screw up my own image just fine without another persons help.

 

[Kittamaru]

Let me just come straight out and say this:

Neverfly, fill out the following form:

What is your grievance (IN other words, how were you wronged?):

What do you want in recompense (or how do you wish to be compensated):

Who was directly involved (from both sides):

What actions prior to the subject of this grievance led to this occurring:

Be honest and truthful - do not elicit any emotion or attitude in filling that out.

With any luck, it should make resolving something like this much, much simpler.

 

[Stryder]

Don't get emotional when you get involved with a discussion on the forum otherwise you'll end up having the trolls trying to feed on your tears.

From what I can see it's two persons perspectives, emotional discourse, misreading and misrepresentation. There is no defining line saying one party or other party is right or wrong. There is no need for the moderator team for this reason to either "Circle the wagons" or look towards "Lynching the Moderator".

Can't you and the mod in question settle your differences "On the field of valour"?... Not the military version but play something like chess, scrabble, battleships, something so one of you can say "I won, lets leave it that".

 

[Neverfly]

Kittamaru:
I have P.M.'ed a detailed reply to you (Or at least will have shortly after this post appears) but this post to Stryder may answer what my complaint actually is.

From what I can see it's two persons perspectives, emotional discourse, misreading and misrepresentation. There is no defining line saying one party or other party is right or wrong. There is no need for the moderator team for this reason to either "Circle the wagons" or look towards "Lynching the Moderator".

Here's how I see this:
Just because it is possible to rationalize an interpretation; should it be done?

Is there reasonable doubt that my words are being misinterpreted?

I can understand if they are. Hell, I probably do it to others, too. But the thing is, I'm held accountable if I do it. I want the same for a Moderator. If a mod makes a final decision that is well supported and reasonable- He must show that he has.

But if it is questionable or there's reasonable doubt- I'd like him held accountable just as we are held accountable.

I find it more like, "I've got the power to do this, so I will," to rationalize a character attack while ignoring what was actually said - then close it off to any further discussion.
Making a character attack and then shutting the door is not Moderator action. And it's not being held accountable.

I certainly don't want a lynch mob. The issue I face is that I am unable to communicate effectively to this Moderator something that I think he is missing.
Part of it is possibly my own anger on the topic. I also think part of it is his defensiveness.
Maybe someone else, someone who he holds in higher regard than myself, will be able to convince him that he needs to take a closer look at the full extent of his actions.

Some say it's not that big of a deal.
It's a big deal to me. And I don't think I should have to let him have his way just because he can; I don't think I should take more accusation over it and I don't think an all out fight is necessary- Just objective observation.

Can't you and the mod in question settle your differences "On the field of valour"?... Not the military version but play something like chess, scrabble, battleships, something so one of you can say "I won, lets leave it that".

No, I find the field of honor flawed. Just because someone is victorious at Chess doesn't make him the more right of two parties. Just means he's better at Chess.

The linear events that led up to this thread are:
Immediately, I PM'ed James R.
I forwarded copies of my words only to other Mods and to the Mod in question.
After 5 days without a reply, I PM'ed James R an "Attention getter." In other words, a bit less polite- but not downright rude. James R responded that he's been very busy and had another matter to deal with as well; I said that's fine, take your time.
A day or so later, I PM'ed another mod on a separate issue. During this discussion, it was somewhat necessary to refer to the actions of Mod I am complaining about here. This Mod advised I take it up directly with that Mod in a PM. I thought to myself that was reasonable- So I gave it a shot.
Didn't work out.
Couldn't PM James R again as I had said he could take his time. And at that point- it seemed like waiting too long makes it absurd. I decided on making an open call here.

PMing Kittamaru what what was requested which Kittamaru can also post in the thread in the Moderator forum.
All My PMs on this matter can be shared by mods with eachother.

 

[Gustav]

madanthonywayne's gone crazy again eh?

 

[Neverfly]

madanthonywayne's gone crazy again eh?

No, Gustav did and I'm gonna get 'um!

 

[Balerion]

Neverfly, trust me, you're not going to get anywhere with this. Moderators are not moderated. It does not happen. I was accused of being a bigot and no better than a psychopathic mass-murderer, and not only was the moderator not disciplined, but I was told by administration to "get over it."

Can't fight city hall, homie.

 

[Neverfly]

Neverfly, trust me, you're not going to get anywhere with this. Moderators are not moderated. It does not happen. I was accused of being a bigot and no better than a psychopathic mass-murderer, and not only was the moderator not disciplined, but I was told by administration to "get over it."

Can't fight city hall, homie.

The moderators are all human beings, just like us. They have lives, jobs and for many, an active interest in science. Moderators have to deal with a lot more drama than many people might consider. In addition to cleaning up, killing spam, weighing arguments and separating fights. It's not easy and I think that as members- we really need to put forth an active effort to remember this.

Make no mistake, I, too, am human. I get angry, too. I get militant and stubborn too.

What I'm attempting here is to waylay that- work around human nature, my own and others. It really is not easy...

I've concluded that the Mod in question is not my enemy, not a bad person, not a jerk; but human. I believe he has made an error. I'd like him to see that error, or me to see mine. Once seen it can be accepted and it is possible to prevent making it again. It promotes improvement. Slowly, over time.

I want to draw attention to the asking. I want to have it confronted Sooner, rather than later.

I don't know. Maybe it's just how it is- to tolerate.
What would I be if I rolled over and exposed the white belly? What would I be if I do not try?

I do think that there are Mods here that care. I've seen it. I do think there are mods here that like what's right- I've seen that, too.
I do think that the Mods are not a clique- that they argue amongst themselves- we just don't have the option of seeing that.

That's why the thread: An Open Call. Who says, "We're here. What would you like to say?"

Would I like fast action? I'd prefer it.
Do I need instant gratification, <grumble> No... I don't...

A fair compromise is good enough for me. I don't need my wants pandered to, just my case examined objectively.
If I am, in fact, all wrong, I want it explained in a way I can understand, not rationalized or thrown in my face in a manner that begs for a reaction.

Yes, We're ALL human. But we CAN do better.

 

[Balerion]

I don't disagree with that. I've fought the good fight myself. I'm just telling you not to be disappointed when it doesn't go your way.