On faith

[spidergoat]

I'm asserting the meaning of Theos and ATheos. There is God, and there are those without God.

That's a semantic argument for God, one I haven't heard before, probably because it fails instantly. The definition of words (which you got wrong) are not arguments in favor of the objects of those words existing. Theists are "with" God in the sense that they hold the opinion (even the faith) that he exists. Atheists are without it in that they don't hold the opinion it exists. Theism isn't a restatement of a fact that God exists, that's a theological position. But that's a typical approach you take, using definitions instead of arguments.

I could just as easily retract my belief because of another evidence. That is basically your position.

YES! If your idea isn't falsifiable, you've admitted that it's illogical. I think you do admit that your position is unsupportable by logic, reason, or science, so you lose the debate, by any reasonable measure. At least be honest and assert that you hold your beliefs with conviction for reasons compelling only to you and perhaps other theists.

 

[gmilam]

That's what you think it is.
How arrogant you are that you believe your perception "is all there is".



When have I ever called the universe, God?

Stop paraphrasing. It's tedious.

Jan.

You're the one who said God is all there is - not me. How arrogant of you!

The universe is "all there is". So by your definition, the universe is God & God is the universe. The word for that is pantheism.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I think you do admit that your position is unsupportable by logic, reason, or science, so you lose the debate, by any reasonable measure. At least be honest and assert that you hold your beliefs with conviction for reasons compelling only to you and perhaps other theists.

I ask my mom one time why she believed in God... an she said that she had never told anyone befor... but it was because when she gave birth to my sister she had a veil over her face an didnt breath as soon as she shoud have... an mom prayed real hard to God for the child to live an it did... an thats what sealed the deal for her belief in God.!!!

Maybe Jan has a simular story but dont want to tell it... cause... kinda like the superstition -- if you tell you'r birthday wish it wont come true... i.e... if you tell you'r God belief story you'r belief coud get messed up.???

 

[Jan Ardena]

It's not what there is about God but rather what there is about the evidence.
Present some that you think is reasonable evidence and we can discuss, from which you may glean why I consider it unreasonable, if indeed I do.

Google it.

Evidence that, with no a priori assumption of God's existence, can only be attributed to God and not to any theory that does not require God.

What would be the evidence?

Apologies, I am not referring to "everything" as you do, I.e. as in "every thing" but as in "all that there is".

God isn't categorised as 'things.'
https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=ms-android-h3g-gb&hl=en-GB&ei=dGzIV-S0O4_b6QTy-4KwAg&q=everything definition&oq=everything d&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.1.0i20k1j0l4.10957.11631.0.13396.3.3.0.0.0.0.199.371.0j2.2.0....0...1.1.64.mobile-gws-serp..1.2.370...0i67k1.Vkkd0bvwFOU

I admire your conviction in what you believe, but why should I believe that you know what God actually is any more than I do?
Or know that God even exists any more than I know?

I don't know why you should. That's something you have to work out.

So what is it that gives you this faith, this belief, that I clearly lack?
Why is it that when you look at something you can say, quite reasonably I'm sure from your perspective, that this is evidence of God?
No, it's not because of the definition of God.
What is it?

I told you already. God is.
There's nothing more to say to you.

The request, Jan, that you continue to evade.

Is there any current evidence, argument, explanation, or idea that will make you accept God?

I see the absurdity of me believing in something for which I see no evidence, yes.
Can you?

I'm not sure that it's possible to believe thusly. Do you know of anything which people believe in without evidence?

Can you not see how important the issue of evidence is to (most) atheists regarding the issue of faith?

Deal with the issues of physical evidence for God's existence, in an appropriate thread. I'm not dealing with it on this thread.

Can you not see how important the issue of evidence is to (most) atheists regarding the issue of faith?

One word. ATheos.

Your comments seem to stress how important we find it yet you can't seem to bring yourself to discuss it when asked?
You recognise its significance yet dismiss atheists for it rather than wishing to discuss it.
Why is that?

You have no idea of what evidence of God should be, yet you ask for evidence. You're not even prepared to google evidence, probably because you think you know that nothing is evidence. Yet you can't even explain what would be regarded as evidence.
Please yourself. That's what you do anyway.

Could it possibly be to understand why people have faith in that which I do not?

I don't believe you.

It does to atheists, as that is what they can not get past in order to have faith.

Atheist =ATheos. Do you think it is possible that you are actually without God?

Why do you have faith in that which you claim there to be evidence for but are unwilling to provide an example for discussion, and when you say evidence is not a core issue?

There are lots of evidences for God. I'm not going to discuss them in this thread.

Can you show me that there's anything to recognise?

How would you know that what I or anyone (google) showed you, would be the thing you request?
Do you even know the actuality of what you request?

Would I really be out of order if I concluded 'No'?

That is your concern.

So this is you discussing with atheists is it?

It's all about yooooooo!

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You're the one who said God is all there is - not me. How arrogant of you!

The universe is "all there is". So by your definition, the universe is God & God is the universe. The word for that is pantheism.

That is the definition of God, so I don't see how I'm being arrogant.

My definition says nothing of the sort.
Stop paraphrasing.

Jan.

 

[spidergoat]

Maybe Jan has a simular story but dont want to tell it...

I think he has, I'm having trouble remembering the details.

 

[spidergoat]

That is the definition of God, so I don't see how I'm being arrogant

It's one definition that you like, because it seems to be an argument.

 

[Tiassa]

The word for that is pantheism.

Functionally speaking, the application is more panentheistic; I can either make it sound really complicated or simply suggest it's an inevitable result of infinitude and totality.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Maybe Jan has a simular story but dont want to tell it... cause... kinda like the superstition -- if you tell you'r birthday wish it wont come true... i.e... if you tell you'r God belief story you'r belief coud get messed up.???

I think he has, I'm having trouble remembering the details.

After he told it the discussion prolly led to his feelins gettin hurt an he wont discuss it anymore.???

I woud thank that stayin in the closet (so to speek) an not discussin you'r views woud be even more hurtful.!!!
Personaly... im confident in myself an open wit my beliefs an it feels grate.!!!

 

[Baldeee]

Google it.

Okay.
Why do you find Jesus appearing on a tortilla as evidence of God rather than simply an example of pareidolia?

What would be the evidence?

I don't know.
Do you?

God isn't categorised as 'things.'

Hence my clarification of how I was using the term "everything".

I don't know why you should. That's something you have to work out.

I have worked it out: I don't.

I told you already. God is.
There's nothing more to say to you.

And so much for honest discussion.
What is it, the questions too taxing?

Is there any current evidence, argument, explanation, or idea that will make you accept God?

None that I am aware of, but that is not to say that none exist.
But this discussion is not about me accepting God or not; we have established and agree that you believe in God and I do not.
This discussion is about why people believe, why they have faith.
You seem quite comfortable with your understanding of why atheists lack belief in the existence of God, but you seem reluctant to explore your side.
You know, the ones who actually have faith in God?

I'm not sure that it's possible to believe thusly. Do you know of anything which people believe in without evidence?

From my perspective, yes.
They claim they have evidence but can't reproduce it, can't explain it, and seem unwilling to discuss it.

Deal with the issues of physical evidence for God's existence, in an appropriate thread. I'm not dealing with it on this thread.

It is appropriate for this thread in as much, as explained, that the identification and treatment of such speak to the difference between those who have faith (the thread subject) and those that don't.
You were happy to discuss the issue of evidence when it suited you, and now you are refusing.
So much for honest discussion.

One word. ATheos.

Your point being?

You have no idea of what evidence of God should be, yet you ask for evidence.

No, I ask for examples of what you take as evidence.
Then we can perhaps discuss it.

You're not even prepared to google evidence, probably because you think you know that nothing is evidence. Yet you can't even explain what would be regarded as evidence.
Please yourself. That's what you do anyway.

Seems I have to in any attempted discussion with you, as you seem decidedly unhelpful.

I don't believe you.

Yet you won't even try to see if it's not true.

Atheist =ATheos. Do you think it is possible that you are actually without God?

I think it entirely possible that everyone is without God, even those who claim to be otherwise.

There are lots of evidences for God. I'm not going to discuss them in this thread.

Why not?
It is relevant to the discussion.

How would you know that what I or anyone (google) showed you, would be the thing you request?
Do you even know the actuality of what you request?

Yes, I'm asking you to provide example of what you consider evidence to be, so that we can then discuss why it is that some people do not see it as reasonable evidence for God, if indeed anyone does.
Would what you showed me be actual evidence of God?
You might believe so (even though you have previously said that there is no physical evidence of God, right?) but until you show me the example I can not say what I think it is reasonable evidence of.

That is your concern.

So you really aren't here to discuss, honestly or otherwise.
Why are you here, Jan?

It's all about yooooooo!

Doesn't seem to be, Jan.
Seems to be all about you refusing to discuss anything.

 

[gmilam]

That is the definition of God, so I don't see how I'm being arrogant.

My definition says nothing of the sort.
Stop paraphrasing.

Jan.

Can you remember your own posts?

You said, "God is all there is."
I replied, "If God is all there is, that's is pantheism."

You replied, "That's what you think it is. How arrogant you are that you believe your perception "is all there is"".

I feed your definition back to you and you call me arrogant.

Idiot.

 

[DaveC426913]

Okay.
Why do you find Jesus appearing on a tortilla as evidence of God rather than simply an example of pareidolia?

I'm afraid he's got you there, Jan.

Your insistence that he "Google it" is an implicit assertion that anything he finds is evidence, in your books.

Surely you knew being coy about your assertions was going to backfire eventually.

 

[DaveC426913]

There are lots of evidences for God. I'm not going to discuss them in this thread.

See, that's the thing. Evidence should stand on its own merit. It does if it's objective evidence. But when it's personal evidence, it tends to be fragile - not robust enough for anyone else to kick its doors and slam its tires.

 

[The God]

And to do so would be considered preaching and against forum rules.

Speaking of splendor of God is not preaching. If I say he is formless yet he is formful, how is that preaching? If I say its there all around but he is nowhere, how is that preaching? If I say he is there in you and there in me, then how is that preaching? If I say he is there in life and he is there in death, then how is that preaching?

Pl do understand, an atheist will not understand it, even my objective brain does not understand it. But then who can claim that he has understood the God completely, well it may create further issues but the objective of life is to attain him to understand him completely, to reach to him, to find him.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

"it may create further issues but the objective of life is to attain him to understand him completely, to reach to him, to find him.

I talked to a Muslim guy one time who said he tried realy hard to find God... but he didnt find him.!!!
Im almost 70 an i have never even thout about/had any desire to look for a God... any idea why you thank that is.???

 

[DaveC426913]

I talked to a Muslim guy one time who said he tried realy hard to find God... but he didnt find him.!!!
Im almost 70 an i have never even thout about/had any desire to look for a God... any idea why you thank that is.???

Because you're a godless heathen?

I found Jesus.

He was behind the couch the whole time!

 

[The God]

I talked to a Muslim guy one time who said he tried realy hard to find God... but he didnt find him.!!!
Im almost 70 an i have never even thout about/had any desire to look for a God... any idea why you thank that is.???

No idea.
You know what happens, if you achieve a set target. To continue you will set a higher target, but there is no higher objective after you find the God. Thats the end. Confused? I am not.

 

[The God]

Because you're a godless heathen?

I found Jesus.

He was behind the couch the whole time!

Well you start again with your venom..

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Because you're a godless heathen?

Well i guess so... but i wonder if i was just born bad... or had a bad influence along the way that kept me from findin God.???

No idea.
You know what happens, if you achieve a set target. To continue you will set a higher target, but there is no higher objective after you find the God. Thats the end. Confused? I am not.

I dont understand how somone can search for somptin they dont believe exists???... is that what you did.???

 

[DaveC426913]

I dont understand how somone can search for somptin they dont believe exists???... is that what you did.???

What make you think I was searching?

I'm a godless heathen like you.