On Chivalry and Sexual Violence

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

Woo, a drop.. #MeToo must have made a difference.. Right?

1- yes, I did read the links.
2- there are no indications, studies or links that demonstrate #metoo made a difference.

there is, however, demonstrable proof that things are improving
also, from those sites you wanted to know if I read:

sexual violence against U.S. female residents age 12 or older declined 64 percent from 5.0 per 1,000 females to 1.8, and remained unchanged through 2010

so, whereas you're taking the cherry-picked statistics of a single year, I am actually looking at the overall trends as well as tracking the averages over the decades.

so is there a huge change as indicated by my quote above in a single year? not really, when you consider the above 64% statistic is taken from pre-change laws where states tended to ignore or drop certain prosecutions due to wording, interpretation, precedent and other reasons, and certain larger jurisdictions and departments were demonstrably proven to have hidden or deleted statistics to improve their overall crime rate, and includes some post-change wording but not the current 2012 changes, however, there is still a change for the better.

of course, this is painfully obvious when you read the links...

Moving onto the second link, with an updated definition of rape:

Is from 2012, before the whole #MeToo movement..

where, in anything that I have posted in this thread, have I made a link between #metoo and changing conditions?

TIA for those quotes so I can clear this up

Third link, the women's law project:

On the front page sees a litany of stories and articles about how women's rights over their own bodies are being eroded.. A click on the #MeToo links is to a blog about what legal services they may offer to victims of sexual harassment.. Unfortunately only for certain cases and only if you live in one particular State.

These services have been available for a long time.

read on that site: "RAPE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM" - C. E. Tracy, T. L. Fromson, Women’s Law Project, J. G. Long, C. Whitman, AEquitas
references found from reading the site: "Diminishing the Legal Impact of Negative Social Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape Victims" - M. J. Anderson
"Marital Immunity, Intimate Relationships, and Improper Inferences: A New Law on Sexual Offenses by Intimates" - M. J. Anderson
(to name a few)

they've also been active in "advocacy to reform police response to sex crimes" (read on that site and in the above references)

Have the rate of convictions and/or compensation increased dramatically for the victims of sexual harassment? Or is it more of the same? I mean, you said it is changing for the better in the US..

where, pray tell, did I state a dramatic increase? (or even dramatic change?)
and when I say it's changing for the better, I mean, very specifically, the trends from 1980 through today. not a single year. not a single month. not even two or three years. the decadal approach is the only way you can judge how things are progressing and how society is advancing.

this is much like climate change: just because you can cherry-pick a short period that demonstrates a point you want to make doesn't mean you have a clue as to the overall changes or even the rate of change in time

so, let me be clear: the overall rate of prosecution and convictions have raised since 1980.
the "dramatic" change has been in the rate of reports and with people coming forward, likely linked to (but not demonstrably proven), the modern attention, classes, awareness and movements (such as #metoo).

What has been found that in the US and elsewhere, post #MeToo, men still greatly underestimate sexual harassment.

The source of the survey and the poll can be found here.

1- read what I wrote. not what you want to believe is inferred
2- nowhere am I making that claim, and nowhere am I saying that there isn't still a problem and there is no work to be done

The National Sexual Violence Resource Center - who get their figures from the CDC and law enforcement agencies around the US, shows that things are still just as bad and now according to the BSJ, it's worse.

can you please point to the section on that link that provides the historical changes?
Maybe I'm missing it?

I'm seeing studies from different dates but I'm not seeing anywhere on that link that tracks the long term trends and how they've changed since 1980... perhaps I just missed it and I need help finding it?
thanks in advance

 

[billvon]

So there has been a massive increase in prosecution?

Nope. I believe you are the one introducing the word "massive" into the discussion.

 

[wegs]

I was reading something the other day - think it was from reddit, and these guys were giving ''advice'' to each other on how to date. Wish I hadn't read it, but it was downright scary. Quite a few guys out there, all ages, believe that emotional abuse and treating women like crap, is ''alpha'' and ''masculine.'' It hasn't dawned on these men that respecting women doesn't make them less masculine.

I'd like to believe that the tide is turning, and in some ways it is, but there are scores of men out there who hate women, want to hurt and destroy women, and see women as nothing more than human blow up dolls.

And even scarier, for every one of them, there is a female attorney willing to ''defend'' them. Weinstein's attorney is flattered by being called the ''Harvey whisperer.'' There are women (like her) who enable men like Harvey, and I wonder if what drives it is that they feel like the ''cool girl,'' who thinks that she ''understands'' men by defending jerks like Weinstein. Who on earth would want praise from other possible rapists, to make excuses for their misogyny? A rapist-whisperer?

Good grief, when the mother ship lands, I better not miss it. Beam me up!

 

[Jeeves]

Of course it hasn't changed.

And now probably won't. That 40% is winning. It's too bad.

 

[parmalee]

And even scarier, for every one of them, there is a female attorney willing to ''defend'' them. Weinstein's attorney is flattered by being called the ''Harvey whisperer.'' There are women (like her) who enable men like Harvey, and I wonder if what drives it is that they feel like the ''cool girl,'' who thinks that she ''understands'' men by defending jerks like Weinstein. Who on earth would want praise from other possible rapists, to make excuses for their misogyny? A rapist-whisperer?

What really gets me is that Rotunno's statement re: "holding doors open" and such is a direct appeal to MRA types. You wouldn't make such an appeal to a fringe, minority group; rather, MRA types are significant enough in number to target--and growing.[/I]

 

[parmalee]

And now probably won't. That 40% is winning. It's too bad.

I know, and have known, a fair number of educators--both of children and of adults. They always get perturbed with me when I describe sizable segments of the populace as ineducable, and, consequently, irredeemable. But... I don't know. An awful lot certainly seem that way to me. And what of this so-called empathy that people supposedly have? I largely don't, at least with respect to the human sorts of people, but I still feel disgust nonetheless.

 

[wegs]

What really gets me is that Rotunno's statement re: "holding doors open" and such is a direct appeal to MRA types. You wouldn't make such an appeal to a fringe, minority group; rather, MRA types are significant enough in number to target--and growing.[/I]

MRA's probably arent holding doors open for women, as it is. So, does she think all the healthy-minded guys out there who don't have issues with women at all, and sometimes display chivalrous acts of kindness, will be miffed if Weinstein and his ilk, go to jail? All the normal, cool guys will march in protest, chanting how they refuse to hold doors for women? lmao

She is basically a rape apologist, sadly.

 

[Jeeves]

And what of this so-called empathy that people supposedly have?

That is a very complicated, very interesting subject in its own right. Too big to cover here*
It's not all about being tolerant, sympathetic or compassionate: it can be trained and harnessed in the service of evil as readily as in the service of good. When those neckless apes all thump their chests in unison, that, too, is a function of empathy.
(* especially as I'm not currently enjoying my accustomed popularity here)

 

[billvon]

So, does she think all the healthy-minded guys out there who don't have issues with women at all, and sometimes display chivalrous acts of kindness, will be miffed if Weinstein and his ilk, go to jail?

I doubt it. I think she is more hoping there is at least one on the jury.

 

[parmalee]

That is a very complicated, very interesting subject in its own right. Too big to cover here*
It's not all about being tolerant, sympathetic or compassionate: it can be trained and harnessed in the service of evil as readily as in the service of good. When those neckless apes all thump their chests in unison, that, too, is a function of empathy.
(* especially as I'm not currently enjoying my accustomed popularity here)

What fascinates me is when and where it (empathy) does and does not cross imagined or imaginary boundaries. And, whether kindly or hostile, it's always something to do with caring*-- where that is, or seems, wholly absent, whether to do with feigned or real ignorance or something else altogether, is also quite an interesting subject.


* I often use the term "care" in a Heideggerian sense, though "care" isn't really a fully adequate translation for sorge. His usage always had a tinge of the inhuman--again, a somewhat nebulous term--and yet, funnily, in recent decades, a number of psych types have borrowed his thought in these matters in the service of a form of therapy.

 

[Bells]

so, whereas you're taking the cherry-picked statistics of a single year, I am actually looking at the overall trends as well as tracking the averages over the decades.

I was looking from the #MeToo.. You know, from when this thread is about.

so is there a huge change as indicated by my quote above in a single year? not really, when you consider the above 64% statistic is taken from pre-change laws where states tended to ignore or drop certain prosecutions due to wording, interpretation, precedent and other reasons, and certain larger jurisdictions and departments were demonstrably proven to have hidden or deleted statistics to improve their overall crime rate, and includes some post-change wording but not the current 2012 changes, however, there is still a change for the better.

Actually that "huge change" is not much of a change at all when one considers how rape was reported, how police departments would not always send their rape statistics to the Feds and how rape was defined differently between states. And it's not just states, but also different departments. For example, with regards to your 2010 reference:

Data on the prevalence of rape vary greatly depending on what definition of rape is used. The FBI recorded 85,593 rapes in 2010. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported nearly 1.3 million incidents that year. It should however be noted that the CDC's definition of rape "represents the public health perspective" and takes into account the ability of the victim to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs while the FBI defines rape as "Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."​

Secondly, crime in general was in a decline during that period, rape and sexual assault also followed a similar trend.

Since then, however, it is back on a climb. This was in the period before the #MeToo movement:

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem


What we do know is that rape and sexual violence affects 1 out of every 6 women in their lifetime.. So that figure tells me that rape and sexual violence is not really in a decline. When 1 out of every 6 women are the victim of sexual violence, do you think it is changing for the better?

So please, tell me how things are changing for the better?

Do you think less women are raped now than before? That 1 out of every 6 is pretty static and has been like this for decades.

And if you want to accuse anyone of cherry picking, when you select 2010 instead of looking at the general trend over a long period of time, and looking at the general trend across all crime statistics and looking at the period this thread actually addresses (Weinstein is a huge hint) and the rise of MRA's who have become so prominent since #MeToo.. You know, something something about you living in a glass house and should not be throwing rocks applies here.

where, in anything that I have posted in this thread, have I made a link between #metoo and changing conditions?

TIA for those quotes so I can clear this up

Because that is what this thread is addressing and the timeframe this thread addresses.

Because you responded to me when I was addressing exactly that.

read on that site: "RAPE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM" - C. E. Tracy, T. L. Fromson, Women’s Law Project, J. G. Long, C. Whitman, AEquitas
references found from reading the site: "Diminishing the Legal Impact of Negative Social Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape Victims" - M. J. Anderson
"Marital Immunity, Intimate Relationships, and Improper Inferences: A New Law on Sexual Offenses by Intimates" - M. J. Anderson
(to name a few)

they've also been active in "advocacy to reform police response to sex crimes" (read on that site and in the above references)

While ignoring the rest of what I said..

Women's rights in your country is going out the window. Rape is on the rise. Unreported rape is also on the rise. That's from that website.

where, pray tell, did I state a dramatic increase? (or even dramatic change?)
and when I say it's changing for the better, I mean, very specifically, the trends from 1980 through today. not a single year. not a single month. not even two or three years. the decadal approach is the only way you can judge how things are progressing and how society is advancing.

this is much like climate change: just because you can cherry-pick a short period that demonstrates a point you want to make doesn't mean you have a clue as to the overall changes or even the rate of change in time

so, let me be clear: the overall rate of prosecution and convictions have raised since 1980.
the "dramatic" change has been in the rate of reports and with people coming forward, likely linked to (but not demonstrably proven), the modern attention, classes, awareness and movements (such as #metoo).

Then maybe you should look at the trend past 2010 to today and then compare that falling trend towards 2010 with trends for other crimes (which also decreased over the same period).

Secondly, climate change? Really? This is pathetic.

Thirdly, prosecution rates rising since 1980?

According to FBI statistics, out of 127,258 rapes reported to police departments in 2018, 33.4 percent resulted in an arrest.[13] Based on correlating multiple data sources, RAINN (Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network) estimates[30] that for every 1,000 rapes, 384 are reported to police, 57 result in an arrest, 11 are referred for prosecution, 7 result in a felony conviction, and 6 result in incarceration. [source]​

Is this meant to be a joke?

What was it before? 8 referred for prosecution out of every 1,000 rapes?

Finally, one expects these things to change massively. Do you know why? Because we are being raped and attacked every minute of every day. You have a problem with my saying it should be improving massively? *Shrugs*.. You'd have similar expectations if you were me.

can you please point to the section on that link that provides the historical changes?
Maybe I'm missing it?

I'm seeing studies from different dates but I'm not seeing anywhere on that link that tracks the long term trends and how they've changed since 1980... perhaps I just missed it and I need help finding it?
thanks in advance

The trends for rape - ie 1 in 5 will experience sexual violence - has been static for decades.

It hasn't changed. At all.

You weren't aware of that?

You can scroll down for reports from organisations like the CDC (that surprise surprise, have a report from 2010 in regards to sexual violence and that 1 in 5 figure, is still pretty much the same now as it was then).. For example, the 2010 report from the CDC states:

Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration.​

Current statistics from the same organisation (the CDC):

1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men experienced sexual violence involving physical contact during their lifetimes. Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 38 men have experienced completed or attempted rape and 1 in 14 men was made to penetrate someone (completed or attempted) during his lifetime.​

So tell me again.. How are things getting better?

19 years and that figure remains the same. And you think it's getting better?

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

Actually that "huge change" is not much of a change at all when one considers

I know. I actually said as much.
ya must have missed that from the dizzying heights of your charger...

Secondly, crime in general was in a decline during that period, rape and sexual assault also followed a similar trend.

preachin' to the choir. also note: I'm not bringing national crime statistics into the conversation

And if you want to accuse anyone of cherry picking, when you select 2010 instead of looking at the general trend over a long period of time,

you must have missed this part:

and when I say it's changing for the better, I mean, very specifically, the trends from 1980 through today. not a single year. not a single month. not even two or three years. the decadal approach is the only way you can judge how things are progressing and how society is advancing.

how many hands? is it crossed with a draft?

Because that is what this thread is addressing and the timeframe this thread addresses.

so, you freely admit that you're making an assumption of data without asking for clarity when there is no data present to actually support your claims. gotcha. thanks.

 

[Jeeves]

What fascinates me is when and where it (empathy) does and does not cross imagined or imaginary boundaries. And, whether kindly or hostile, it's always something to do with caring*-

I think it's more about identifying - which, again, branches into belonging and solidarity.
But, yet, there is the also the sympathy/compassion kind of identification.
I don't understand enough to make a definitive statement here - and the subject is really too big.

 

[Bells]

I know. I actually said as much.
ya must have missed that from the dizzying heights of your charger...

Are you going to mansplain this subject to me some more? Because nothing you have provided actually shows much change for women.

preachin' to the choir. also note: I'm not bringing national crime statistics into the conversation

If you are going to start crowing about how things are changing for the better, and ignoring the general trend, then you are basically urinating into the wind.

Not only have you deliberately changed the context of this discussion because you think things are now better (they are not), you bring up trends that occurred prior to the timeframe this discussion covers and then refuse to acknowledge what that trend represents overall and how it fell into line with other reported crimes in the same timeframe..

how many hands? is it crossed with a draft?

Going back to the 80's now..

Have you factored in the changing definitions for rape when you are looking at these trends? How about marital rape, which was not on the books as a crime in all States until 1993 in the US? Or the fact that in several states, even after marital rape was on the books, use of force and/or weapon had to be present for it to count as a marital rape?

Can you please provide the "trends" that take all of this into account and adjust the figures accordingly before you claim things have improved...

so, you freely admit that you're making an assumption of data without asking for clarity when there is no data present to actually support your claims. gotcha. thanks.

When you have to resort to lying, then it really says a lot about your role and intentions in this thread.

There is no assumption..

Things are improving is now replacing the #NotAllMen..

I guess in that regard, you do fall in line with the OP..

 

[wegs]

So, what are we feeling about the verdicts in the Weinstein case? I feel that at least, he wasn't acquitted on all charges. He has to face some time, perhaps a lengthy sentence.

An interesting explanation of the verdict:

https://www.thecut.com/2020/02/what-is-third-degree-rape-weinstein-charges-explained.html

 

[Jeeves]

Apparently, it's not over yet.
If he spends his remaining life in ignominy and litigation, that by itself is some kind of justice.
I'm daydreaming of his old buddies - one in particular - consigned to a similar twilight.

 

[billvon]

So, what are we feeling about the verdicts in the Weinstein case?

Glad he's going to pay for his crimes, a little disappointed he got out of a few of them.

 

[wegs]

Glad he's going to pay for his crimes, a little disappointed he got out of a few of them.

Yea, agree. He looks like a disheveled, lost soul from the snippet I caught of him leaving the courthouse. I have a feeling his nightmare has only just begun, since lawsuits are coming out of different states, now.

 

[sideshowbob]

He looks like a disheveled, lost soul

He's been lost for a long time. He's only just beginning to realize it.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

I want to know the punishment.