Any religion proclaiming the existence of a flawless deity runs into the seemingly insurmountable dilemma of explaining why that perfect deity would waste its time creating a clearly imperfect world (or why they'd get lonely and need to make one of any sort whatsoever), instead of simply cutting to the chase and making everyone happy while skipping past all the bad stuff. Oh, but God wants us to have free will, they say... why then does he need to create creatures with free will if it leads them to immense suffering, possibly for eternity? Why isn't Mr. Perfect already content with his own timeless perfection as is? How can a perfect deity get tired on a 6 day work week? Of course if you believe that all religions were made up by people just like you and me, the explanation for why God resembles a flawed human is pretty straight forward.
Okay... so... seriously...
- Thread starter Kittamaru
- Start date
Any religion proclaiming the existence of a flawless deity runs into the seemingly insurmountable dilemma of explaining why that perfect deity would waste its time creating a clearly imperfect world (or why they'd get lonely and need to make one of any sort whatsoever), instead of simply cutting to the chase and making everyone happy while skipping past all the bad stuff. Oh, but God wants us to have free will, they say... why then does he need to create creatures with free will if it leads them to immense suffering, possibly for eternity? Why isn't Mr. Perfect already content with his own timeless perfection as is? How can a perfect deity get tired on a 6 day work week? Of course if you believe that all religions were made up by people just like you and me, the explanation for why God resembles a flawed human is pretty straight forward.
@ CptBork
Grok'd!!!
Grok'd!!!
Well, think of it this way:
Why do so many of us humans enjoy spending time playing a game such as The Sims? They are flawed, even by human standards, yet it is uniquely enjoyable to see them meander about their daily lives, interacting with them insomuch as given them little things to overcome or little rewards when they do. My wife, in particular, enjoys making effigies of those who have severely crossed her in Sims 3 and then finding ingenious ways to torture them... a little psychopathic you could say, but hey, she keeps it in the games instead of real life (and trust me, there are a handful of people who have wronged her/us severely enough that causing grievous bodily harm to them has crossed my mind before)
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
So much for life having any meaning at all...
Did you just call God a psychopath?
So much for life having any meaning at all...
*shrugs* Entertainment value perhaps?
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Is that it?! Well, then I'm not going to comply. I refuse to be some celestial bully's play thing.
Also, you missed the part were I asked about you calling God a psycho
Errrr... jus so you know for sure... i thank you an wife are real swell people who are prolly very perty an smell good... etc... etc... :fright:
Nostalgia
For my generation, there were plenty of paranoid people running around hearing the Devil in popular music. My favorite is the alleged, "The Devil is my strawberry" backmasked on a vinyl single of "I Get Around" by the Beach Boys. One or another of the California legislative houses declared, in the eighties, that there were backward, Satanic messages hidden in a number of songs popular at the time. Peter Gabriel's "Shock the Monkey" was one, and to this day Styx still introduces "Snowblind", an anti-cocaine song, with that story. I first heard it in 1983, and they used it in '96 when the band was as back together as it could be, and again in the aughts, I forget which year, when it was pretty much Tommy and James' band.
But it's a juvenile tradition in that sense. The more people went off about Satanism, the more popular Satan became. There is, to be certain, the idea of Mercyful Fate (King Diamond). Themes of good and evil ran throughout the genre, and some of it was glorious, some of it fantastical, some of it just comically offensive, and some of it openly political. And some of it just seemed like drunken ranting. But it was fun. Some people picked a fight, but they picked it with an ideology or subculture that was perfectly willing to fight back.
And heavy metal was really good at fighting back. It was a perfect medium for juvenile temper tantrums against idiotic religious meddling. By comparison, the contemporary backlash against religion going on in my society is pretty limp.
And therein lies the title.
The most famous:
I mean, come on. Heavy metal? That's a tattooed invitation.
And it was part of my culture in youth. Front and center. Geraldo Rivera on his talk show. 20/20. Congressional hearings. This was a throw-down brawl.
And, yes, even after the decline of heavy metal, grunge kept the tradition alive. Soundgarden just went for the straightforward offense, and didn't disguise it in any Satanic vestments.
On the other hand, there is Monster Magnet. These days, when we think of stoner rock, we tend to think of bands like QOTSA (and consequently Kyuss and Vista Chino), The Sword; Kylesa, and the desert rock lineage, Monster Magnet is a strange mix of acid rock, glam, heavy metal, and grunge. As a band, they might well be a genre unto themselves. "Nod Scene" pretty much secured their identity as a drug band of some sort. In truth, that one is more of a whippit song. "Ozium" is much more stoner.
And, really, Monster Magnet live is an experience in a class of its own. I've been sonically abused by Tool, Melvins, Motörhead, Slayer, Queens of the Stone Age—really, with Grohl in whatever they were calling the Off-Ramp at the time, you would think the building would have exploded from the force of sound—and even compared to the loudest bands known in our social circles, Monster Magnet is something special. Jane's can be louder, but I've never heard it. Some say Metallica is louder, and I don't doubt it, but Monster Magnet is just inherently belligerent sound. And it exudes testosterone and drugs. The Bull God is just this really scary-looking symbol.
The image is cover art from the band's debut Lp, Spine of God; it's an inner sleeve photo. That particular version is clipped from a t-shirt, but it's just a negative image in bad contrast of the band, with a slogan designed to get attention and piss off the censorship advocates who were still riding high in 1991. And it was a pretty creative kick in the crotch.
But it's not like there's any significant Satanic wing among their fandom. They are a special niche of stoner rock separate from the versions that preceded them before the rise of grunge.
Oh, right. Yeah, Soundgarden did eventually get around to the Satan bit. I had forgotten. Sorry, beside the point at this point.
But, yeah. Just something you pick up along the way. I used to have not a darwinfish on my car, but a fish "'n'chips".
But that image is part of my heritage, now. It is a marker in several currents of my ideological development. And on this occasion, it is an example of a particular form of agitating humor. But I look at the image you posted and just think, Fuckin' amateurs.
You know, though, it's kind of funny. The idea of teenage Satanic worship, which drove a whole lot of that heavy metal fight in the '80s, seems nearly inevitable. The whole debate had an odor about it suggesting that part of the problem was ill-educated religious children undergoing a teenage rebellion. Those who took it seriously and never got the joke? Well, those who take Christianity in a similar context have a tax-free, multibillion-dollar televangelism industry to keep up. I mean, really? Pat Robertson? How about that whole prosperity gospel horsepucky? Paragons of virtue.
But that, in turn, only feeds the joke on a really morbid diet. Modern Satanism has always been specifically and pointedly reactionary. Read the Nine Statements; they're hilarious. (Hint: It's not so much worship of evil but acknowledgment that this is the way of humankind; the nonscriptural canon ranges from Mark Twain to Ayn Rand to Aleister Crowley, and so on. It's always been a pretentious, reactionary joke.)
So in a way, yeah, those hacks are just trolling, and that's the part I'm disappointed about. I mean, fuck; if you're gonna bother, then put some effort into doing it right, y'know?
But it was fun.
Used to just drive people nuts.
But, you know, there were other ways. It was amazing what would piss people off.
Talk about a nostalgia trip. Yeah, it's just a juvenile amusement picked up along the way.
And—
—yeah, that works.
Yeah.
____________________
Notes:
Bucholz, Chris. "12 Bizarre True Stories Behind Famous Band Names". Cracked. May 28, 2009. Cracked.com. May 22, 2014. http://www.cracked.com/article_17423_12-bizarre-true-stories-behind-famous-band-names.html
Arne Saknussemm said:
For my generation, there were plenty of paranoid people running around hearing the Devil in popular music. My favorite is the alleged, "The Devil is my strawberry" backmasked on a vinyl single of "I Get Around" by the Beach Boys. One or another of the California legislative houses declared, in the eighties, that there were backward, Satanic messages hidden in a number of songs popular at the time. Peter Gabriel's "Shock the Monkey" was one, and to this day Styx still introduces "Snowblind", an anti-cocaine song, with that story. I first heard it in 1983, and they used it in '96 when the band was as back together as it could be, and again in the aughts, I forget which year, when it was pretty much Tommy and James' band.
But it's a juvenile tradition in that sense. The more people went off about Satanism, the more popular Satan became. There is, to be certain, the idea of Mercyful Fate (King Diamond). Themes of good and evil ran throughout the genre, and some of it was glorious, some of it fantastical, some of it just comically offensive, and some of it openly political. And some of it just seemed like drunken ranting. But it was fun. Some people picked a fight, but they picked it with an ideology or subculture that was perfectly willing to fight back.
And heavy metal was really good at fighting back. It was a perfect medium for juvenile temper tantrums against idiotic religious meddling. By comparison, the contemporary backlash against religion going on in my society is pretty limp.
And therein lies the title.
The most famous:
Famously, rumors have circulated that KISS stands for "Knights In Satan's Service." The band has consistently denied this however, rightly pointing out that the band isn't comprised of agents of evil so much as ridiculous, ridiculous men. The true story, according to Paul Stanley, is that they chose the name KISS because it "just sounded dangerous and sexy at the same time." Kissing is generally considered one of the least dangerous activities ever invented (it's right after hand washing) so we're going to question Paul Stanley's explanation here.
(Bucholz)
(Bucholz)
I mean, come on. Heavy metal? That's a tattooed invitation.
And it was part of my culture in youth. Front and center. Geraldo Rivera on his talk show. 20/20. Congressional hearings. This was a throw-down brawl.
And, yes, even after the decline of heavy metal, grunge kept the tradition alive. Soundgarden just went for the straightforward offense, and didn't disguise it in any Satanic vestments.
On the other hand, there is Monster Magnet. These days, when we think of stoner rock, we tend to think of bands like QOTSA (and consequently Kyuss and Vista Chino), The Sword; Kylesa, and the desert rock lineage, Monster Magnet is a strange mix of acid rock, glam, heavy metal, and grunge. As a band, they might well be a genre unto themselves. "Nod Scene" pretty much secured their identity as a drug band of some sort. In truth, that one is more of a whippit song. "Ozium" is much more stoner.
And, really, Monster Magnet live is an experience in a class of its own. I've been sonically abused by Tool, Melvins, Motörhead, Slayer, Queens of the Stone Age—really, with Grohl in whatever they were calling the Off-Ramp at the time, you would think the building would have exploded from the force of sound—and even compared to the loudest bands known in our social circles, Monster Magnet is something special. Jane's can be louder, but I've never heard it. Some say Metallica is louder, and I don't doubt it, but Monster Magnet is just inherently belligerent sound. And it exudes testosterone and drugs. The Bull God is just this really scary-looking symbol.
The image is cover art from the band's debut Lp, Spine of God; it's an inner sleeve photo. That particular version is clipped from a t-shirt, but it's just a negative image in bad contrast of the band, with a slogan designed to get attention and piss off the censorship advocates who were still riding high in 1991. And it was a pretty creative kick in the crotch.
But it's not like there's any significant Satanic wing among their fandom. They are a special niche of stoner rock separate from the versions that preceded them before the rise of grunge.
Oh, right. Yeah, Soundgarden did eventually get around to the Satan bit. I had forgotten. Sorry, beside the point at this point.
But, yeah. Just something you pick up along the way. I used to have not a darwinfish on my car, but a fish "'n'chips".
But that image is part of my heritage, now. It is a marker in several currents of my ideological development. And on this occasion, it is an example of a particular form of agitating humor. But I look at the image you posted and just think, Fuckin' amateurs.
You know, though, it's kind of funny. The idea of teenage Satanic worship, which drove a whole lot of that heavy metal fight in the '80s, seems nearly inevitable. The whole debate had an odor about it suggesting that part of the problem was ill-educated religious children undergoing a teenage rebellion. Those who took it seriously and never got the joke? Well, those who take Christianity in a similar context have a tax-free, multibillion-dollar televangelism industry to keep up. I mean, really? Pat Robertson? How about that whole prosperity gospel horsepucky? Paragons of virtue.
But that, in turn, only feeds the joke on a really morbid diet. Modern Satanism has always been specifically and pointedly reactionary. Read the Nine Statements; they're hilarious. (Hint: It's not so much worship of evil but acknowledgment that this is the way of humankind; the nonscriptural canon ranges from Mark Twain to Ayn Rand to Aleister Crowley, and so on. It's always been a pretentious, reactionary joke.)
So in a way, yeah, those hacks are just trolling, and that's the part I'm disappointed about. I mean, fuck; if you're gonna bother, then put some effort into doing it right, y'know?
But it was fun.
Use your demon eyes; uncover the disguise.
Time is out! Yeah! I don't need your God.
On the Law of Satan,
Pray, and obey it forever.
Oh, the law of Satan!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .―Mercyful Fate
Time is out! Yeah! I don't need your God.
On the Law of Satan,
Pray, and obey it forever.
Oh, the law of Satan!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .―Mercyful Fate
Used to just drive people nuts.
But, you know, there were other ways. It was amazing what would piss people off.
Talk about a nostalgia trip. Yeah, it's just a juvenile amusement picked up along the way.
And—
—yeah, that works.
Yeah.
____________________
Notes:
Bucholz, Chris. "12 Bizarre True Stories Behind Famous Band Names". Cracked. May 28, 2009. Cracked.com. May 22, 2014. http://www.cracked.com/article_17423_12-bizarre-true-stories-behind-famous-band-names.html
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Is that it?! Well, then I'm not going to comply. I refuse to be some celestial bully's play thing.
Also, you missed the part were I asked about you calling God a psycho
Indeed, I did miss that part. I guess one could say God is Psycho... but, here's the thing - do we, as mere mortals, get to judge the mental state of the Almighty? After all, He has to watch all the stupid shit we do
Much like watching one of your Sims get evicted because they were too dumb to go out to the mailbox and get the bills themselves XD
Oh no no no - you have to SERIOUSLY cross us many times for it to get even close to that... one prime example of the girlfriend of a now-former friend of ours who had wronged my wife several times before (once potentially putting her in danger due to her diabetes) decided it would be a good idea to repeatedly scream at my wife and tell her to go kill herself and that the world would be "better off without her"... she is not welcome around our place anymore, needless to say... and given the way she is absolutely ruining our (now former) friends life... well, I am quite certain she is nothing more than a succubus and I would have no qualms removing her like the vile daemon she is, were I inclined to think I could actually get away with it.
Might make me a bit sociopathic, but meh. Nobody treats my wife that way, period.
Luckly wife is out of harms way now... might as well muster some pity for the (mental prollem) girl an her boyfrind cause ther future is prolly gonna get worse befor it gets beter.!!!
Right, and most mainstream religions would have you believe that a perfect being can't remain perfect without playing Sims 2000 (God's version). God has to be perfect they say, or else there's not much point in postulating him or trusting the people who speak about him; but then God also has to get angry, jealous, tired, depressed etc., and his outlet is to eternally punish his own creation for having the imperfections he himself built into it. There's a plot hole here, and we need George Lucas to get cracking on it ASAP.
This and That
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that way.
A Note for Kittamaru (and anyone else, actually, but, you know ....)
I forgot to mention To Reign In Hell, one of the best discussions of the Fall of Satan you will ever find. That link is a nearly readable PDF someone posted, and Steven has apparently never demanded be removed; the book is available in paperback (secondhand) and trade paper (new):
No, really, it's one of the greats.
____________________
Notes:
Brust, Steven K. Z. To Reign in Hell. 1984. New York: Ace, 1985.
StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that way.
• • •
A Note for Kittamaru (and anyone else, actually, but, you know ....)
I forgot to mention To Reign In Hell, one of the best discussions of the Fall of Satan you will ever find. That link is a nearly readable PDF someone posted, and Steven has apparently never demanded be removed; the book is available in paperback (secondhand) and trade paper (new):
Snow, tenderly caught by eddying breezes, swirled and spun into and out of bright, lustrous shapes that gleamed against the emerald-blazoned black drape of sky and sparkled there for a moment, hanging, before settling gently to the soft, green-tufted plain with all the sickly sweetness of an over-written sentence.
The Regent of the South looked upon this white-on-black-over-green perfection and he saw that it was revolting. His eyes, a green that was positively startling, narrowed, and his nostrils flared. The being next to him took the shape of an animal that would someday be called a golden retriever. It shook its head and snorted, since barking was yet a few millennia away.
....."My gorge rises to think on't," said the dog.
.....The Regent nodded without speaking.
.....The other continued, "I mind a time when thou didst delight to see decadence."
....."I mind a time when there were things other than decadence to compare it to."
....."Verily," the dog admitted. "But think'st thou this can last forever?"
.....The Regent shrugged. "No, I know it won't. The Wave is still recent; its effects linger. Soon enough, form will be form again, and jokes like this will be too difficult to be worth the bother. But it sickens me."
....."Whose working is this then, milord?" the dog asked.
....."It doesn't matter," said the Regent. "One of our arch-brethren, certainly. Maybe it was whoever put Marfiel into a six-day sleep so she missed the harvest. It's the same stupid sense of humor."
....."Certes thou art aware of that thou has earned: to relax thy vigilance and enjoy this time, as thy archbrethren do."
.....The Regent shook his shead. "Perhaps," he said, "that is my own form of decadence."
.....The smaller one laughed and wagged his tail.
The Regent of the South looked upon this white-on-black-over-green perfection and he saw that it was revolting. His eyes, a green that was positively startling, narrowed, and his nostrils flared. The being next to him took the shape of an animal that would someday be called a golden retriever. It shook its head and snorted, since barking was yet a few millennia away.
....."My gorge rises to think on't," said the dog.
.....The Regent nodded without speaking.
.....The other continued, "I mind a time when thou didst delight to see decadence."
....."I mind a time when there were things other than decadence to compare it to."
....."Verily," the dog admitted. "But think'st thou this can last forever?"
.....The Regent shrugged. "No, I know it won't. The Wave is still recent; its effects linger. Soon enough, form will be form again, and jokes like this will be too difficult to be worth the bother. But it sickens me."
....."Whose working is this then, milord?" the dog asked.
....."It doesn't matter," said the Regent. "One of our arch-brethren, certainly. Maybe it was whoever put Marfiel into a six-day sleep so she missed the harvest. It's the same stupid sense of humor."
....."Certes thou art aware of that thou has earned: to relax thy vigilance and enjoy this time, as thy archbrethren do."
.....The Regent shook his shead. "Perhaps," he said, "that is my own form of decadence."
.....The smaller one laughed and wagged his tail.
No, really, it's one of the greats.
____________________
Notes:
Brust, Steven K. Z. To Reign in Hell. 1984. New York: Ace, 1985.
something happened that altered what was.
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
One teacher of religion opined about an instantaneous "god". (GOD for one instant only)
GOD was not GOD before the act of creation. And after the act of creation when GOD separated the earth from GOD, then GOD was no longer GOD.
(University of Oklahoma---the buckle of the bible belt---circa 1966)
In the 1980's there also was also the Satanist/sex abuse child care scare where kids would say the darndest things when prompted by crazy adults.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria
How the heck is it anywhere near half as bad as most religion?