Obama Drowning Business in a Sea of Red Tape

[joepistole]

You wouldn't know the TRUTH if it came up and bit you on the ass Joe.

If you weren't lying then just QUOTE me where I said Government was evil.

LOL, getting frustrated again Arthur? It is much easier to accept truth and reason instead of constantly fighting it and relying on illogical arguements and made up evidence.

As I said before, to say that business only creates jobs is silly and inaccurate. Government and business need each other. It is not all one or the other. And government regulation does not equate to private sector job losses or decrease business activity. In fact it can do just the opposite.

Since you seem to think the federal government is pushing onerous regulation on business and citing the US Chamber of Commerce (which is a big lobbying group), you should be able to provide some examples. And you should know that just because a lobbyist group is against a certian piece of legislation or regulation, it does not make that regulation bad. Throughout this thread you have conistently defended industry - whatever industry wants or does not want is good. And by inference anything that government does that is not in compliance with what industry desires is bad.

There is no substitute for reason. There is no substitute for rational thought and decision making. Just because industry is against something, it does not follow that it is bad for the nation. The car industy fought tooth and nail against seat belts claiming it would bankrupt the industry. Decades later we can see that government regulation requiring seat belts in all cars did not bankrupt the auto industry. And countless lives have been saved as a result of seat belt regulation.

 

[adoucette]

LOL, getting frustrated again Arthur?

Yes, I am fustrated with your continual lying and the lack of reasonable moderation to get you to stop doing so.

It is much easier to accept truth and reason instead of constantly fighting it and relying on illogical arguements and made up evidence.

Advice you have never taken Joe.

to say that business only creates jobs is silly and inaccurate.

And again that is NOT something that I have ever said.
Which is why you apparently resort to making up lies about what I do say.
In the US, there are about 6 times more private jobs than government jobs, so they are by far the majority of jobs.

Government and business need each other. It is not all one or the other. And government regulation does not equate to private sector job losses or decrease business activity. In fact it can do just the opposite.

Possibly, and the relationship between the Government and business is complex, but I've never said that government regulation automatically equates to private sector job losses. It can, but it can also help business and society.

Since you seem to think the federal government is pushing onerous regulation on business and citing the US Chamber of Commerce (which is a big lobbying group), you should be able to provide some examples.

Not only the US CoC says this but the Obama Administration agrees and said repeal of onerous regulations would save us $10 Billion over 5 years.

http://www.gaebler.com/News/Small-B...-ease-regulations-on-businesses-800581835.htm

The car industy fought tooth and nail against seat belts claiming it would bankrupt the industry. Decades later we can see that government regulation requiring seat belts in all cars did not bankrupt the auto industry. And countless lives have been saved as a result of seat belt regulation.

So? I've never claimed that regulations requiring seat belts was the same as onerous regulation or that business is always right.

Arthur

 

[spidergoat]

What do you have in mind, since the government doesn't do it today, but since CO2 is at the heart of energy production then clearly it could be done stupidly.

For instance, taxing CO2 use here but allowing imports of products from countries that don't similarly tax CO2 could really hurt the competitiveness of US companies.

Arthur

Perhaps that was a bad example. What regulation is drowning business?

 

[joepistole]

Yes, I am fustrated with your continual lying and the lack of reasonable moderation to get you to stop doing so.

Sieg heils! Yes you must quash dissent and suppress truth and reason at all cost.

Advice you have never taken Joe.

Well if that is the case, then it should not be so troublesome to produce evidence of same.

And again that is NOT something that I have ever said.
Which is why you apparently resort to making up lies about what I do say.
In the US, there are about 6 times more private jobs than government jobs, so they are by far the majority of jobs.

Aside from the fiction, how is this even remotely relevant? The discussion is about regulation not about who employs the most people.

Possibly, and the relationship between the Government and business is complex, but I've never said that government regulation automatically equates to private sector job losses. It can, but it can also help business and society.

Yes government regulation does not automatically equate to job losses in the private sector. And regulation can help business and society. I feel like we have achieved some major break through here. You do realize you are taking an antithetical position here?

However, the people you support and defend (Republicans/Tea Partiers) are anti government regulation. In short, people like you and those you defend (Republicans/Tea Partiers) are in supporters of industry special interests (e.g. the Koch brothers and medical industries). Those special interests which include the US Chamber of Commerce are all for government regulation as long as it screws the American people and benefits those who fund movements like the Tea Party and Republican Party.

Not only the US CoC says this but the Obama Administration agrees and said repeal of onerous regulations would save us $10 Billion over 5 years.

http://www.gaebler.com/News/Small-B...-ease-regulations-on-businesses-800581835.htm

Yes the Obama administration has been against onerous regulation. So why is it conservatives (Republicans/Tea Partiers) make these false allegations against President Obama?

So? I've never claimed that regulations requiring seat belts was the same as onerous regulation or that business is always right.

Arthur

And I never claimed you did say anything about seat belt legislation. I used it as an example of industry making false claims about government regulation. And let's keep in mind that onerous regulation for one person might be vital to another. So just because claims are made, it does not make those claims true.

I can cite personal experiences with inept and incompetent and inconsistent regulators. They can be a giant pain in the rear and for no good reason other than their own ego gratification. But just because there are problems with regulation, it does not mean every regulation is bad or every regulator is bad. I have had some great experiences with good regulators as well.

In short regulation is not the reason for the nation's economic and unemployment issues. It is just a canard used by Republicans/Tea Partiers to advance the agenda of their corporate special interest sponsors.

 

[adoucette]

Perhaps that was a bad example. What regulation is drowning business?

Well they killed my industry with regulation.

I was in the item processing business, with most of the software I developed devoted to processing checks.

After 9/11 they decided to pass Check21 law (allowed an image of a check to be the legal equivelent of a check), but then took YEARS to publish the regulations that Check 21 data was to be exchanged by. Finally ANSI X9-37 came out in 05 and so for YEARS we couldn't sell the software we had developed and for years we couldn't really develop the replacement software, and when they were done, existing companies were totally beaten by companies that had been doing image exchange overseas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_21_Act
http://www.checkimagecentral.org/pdf/UCD X9 100-187-2008 Final.pdf

I can list a number of companies of thousands of people's jobs that existed in 2001 which are no more.

Carreker Corp, CheckSolutions and CheckFree for instance are all gone now, probably employed about 5,000 people.

So as to your question, each industry is affected differently by government regulation, so there is no one answer to that question. But I will tell you, that the government simply doesn't care if they decide your company/business/industry has to go for the "greater good", you're simply fucked.

In other cases, it's a matter of just more and more regulation, here's one on nano-technology:

http://www.uschamber.com/sites/defa...206tmcommentschambercommentstofdapetition.pdf

 

[adoucette]

Sieg heils! Yes you must quash dissent and suppress truth and reason at all cost.

Welcome to IGNORE.

 

[joepistole]

welcome to ignore.

lol

 

[adoucette]

This message is hidden because joepistole is on your ignore list.

LOL

Works like a charm.

 

[spidergoat]

And regulation preventing the use of asbestos probably killed a couple asbestos companies. Doesn't it help business in the end if checks can be sent via digital images? Wasn't it important to take care in developing the regulations regarding this?

 

[joepistole]

Well they killed my industry with regulation.

I was in the item processing business, with most of the software I developed devoted to processing checks.

After 9/11 they decided to pass Check21 law (allowed an image of a check to be the legal equivelent of a check), but then took YEARS to publish the regulations that Check 21 data was to be exchanged by. Finally ANSI X9-37 came out in 05 and so for YEARS we couldn't sell the software we had developed and for years we couldn't really develop the replacement software, and when they were done, existing companies were totally beaten by companies that had been doing image exchange overseas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_21_Act
http://www.checkimagecentral.org/pdf/UCD X9 100-187-2008 Final.pdf

I can list a number of companies of thousands of people's jobs that existed in 2001 which are no more.

Carreker Corp, CheckSolutions and CheckFree for instance are all gone now, probably employed about 5,000 people.

So as to your question, each industry is affected differently by government regulation, so there is no one answer to that question. But I will tell you, that the government simply doesn't care if they decide your company/business/industry has to go for the "greater good", you're simply fucked.

In other cases, it's a matter of just more and more regulation, here's one on nano-technology:

http://www.uschamber.com/sites/defa...206tmcommentschambercommentstofdapetition.pdf

As it just so happens, I worked for company that celebrated the passage of Check 21. My company had been lobbying for that legislation for a long time. This kind of legislation by the way is written by industry and passed by congress to the benefit of industry. It happens all the time. Law makers do not have the technical savy to write this kind of legislation. They need industry support for this kind of legislation.

And in the end, it benefited the consumer, banks, and the maker of hardware and software (American headquartered). And that is why it was the banking industry along with makers of hardware and software wrote and pushed this legislation through congress. You guys lost the fight. This is an example of your industry going the way of carriage makers - not an example of government abuse.

 

[adoucette]

And regulation preventing the use of asbestos probably killed a couple asbestos companies. Doesn't it help business in the end if checks can be sent via digital images? Wasn't it important to take care in developing the regulations regarding this?

Comparing Asbestos which can kill you with slight processing improvements in check processing is a tad silly.

The Check 21 regulation has had virtually no positive impact at all and won't unless the air system is shut down again like it was post 9/11 for a few days, which is highly unlikely to ever happen again.

Regardless, the government should have worked with the EXISTING industry, so we could have tooled up for the changes before they publically anounced it and thus dried up our sales of existing products.

The many year delay between the announcement of the new way of doing check processing and the publication of the ANSI standard that allowed it (4 years) is what led these companies to go under. I worked for Carreker at the time and we had 600 employees in 2001. By 2004 we were down to 200 (and no raises/bonuses). We didn't make it through 2005.

And checks are still written like they always were (and I'm still in the business), they are simply converted to images and fowarded that way. (they used to fly at night on jets, helping a tiny bit with the revenue the airlines made)

Arthur

 

[joepistole]

Comparing Asbestos which can kill you with slight processing improvements in check processing is a tad silly.

The Check 21 regulation has had virtually no positive impact at all and won't unless the air system is shut down again like it was post 9/11 for a few days, which is highly unlikely to ever happen again.

Regardless, the government should have worked with the EXISTING industry, so we could have tooled up for the changes before they publically anounced it and thus dried up our sales of existing products.

The many year delay between the announcement of the new way of doing check processing and the publication of the ANSI standard that allowed it (4 years) is what led these companies to go under. I worked for Carreker at the time and we had 600 employees in 2001. By 2004 we were down to 200 (and no raises/bonuses). We didn't make it through 2005.

And checks are still written like they always were (and I'm still in the business), they are simply converted to images and fowarded that way. (they used to fly at night on jets, helping a tiny bit with the revenue the airlines made)

Arthur

It did work with existing industry (banking and hardware and software manufacturers). You just didn't like the outcome. You know that is the nature of free markets. Capital is allocated to those who invent a better mouse trap. You guys got out mouse trapped. And so now you are blaming government for the business failings of your company.

And a lot of companies are now prospering because of Check 21, and there will be more technology coming down the road. I am looking forward to the electronic wallet.

 

[Gustav]

It did work with existing industry (banking and hardware and software manufacturers). You just didn't like the outcome. You know that is the nature of free markets. Capital is allocated to those who invent a better mouse trap. You guys got out mouse trapped. And so now you are blaming government for the business failings of your company.

And a lot of companies are now prospering because of Check 21, and there will be more technology coming down the road. I am looking forward to the electronic wallet.

read and weep, cacaboy

 

[spidergoat]

Comparing Asbestos which can kill you with slight processing improvements in check processing is a tad silly.

The Check 21 regulation has had virtually no positive impact at all and won't unless the air system is shut down again like it was post 9/11 for a few days, which is highly unlikely to ever happen again.

Regardless, the government should have worked with the EXISTING industry, so we could have tooled up for the changes before they publically anounced it and thus dried up our sales of existing products.

The many year delay between the announcement of the new way of doing check processing and the publication of the ANSI standard that allowed it (4 years) is what led these companies to go under. I worked for Carreker at the time and we had 600 employees in 2001. By 2004 we were down to 200 (and no raises/bonuses). We didn't make it through 2005.

And checks are still written like they always were (and I'm still in the business), they are simply converted to images and fowarded that way. (they used to fly at night on jets, helping a tiny bit with the revenue the airlines made)

Arthur

So that's 600 jobs, which doesn't seem to be a huge problem.

 

[adoucette]

So that's 600 jobs, which doesn't seem to be a huge problem.

No, I listed 3 companies that went under, about 5,000 jobs, but there were a lot more than that industry wide.

But that wasn't my point, just that Gov Regulation can indeed cause job loss.

In this case, it was unusually ham fisted in that the government could have made the transition a lot less disruptive had they given it any thought to the overall impact of announcing a change well before they could actually implement the change, but the regulators (the Fed) were simply not concerned with the impacts they were causing to the existing Software and Hardware manufacturers, they seemed only interested to the impact they had on the Banks.

Which is my general take on Gov regulations. They are often done with good intention, but they often have other unintended consequences that cause harm.

Arthur

 

[adoucette]

read and weep, cacaboy

I have nothing to weep about, I'm still in the business and have been quite successful, with much of my new software related to changes that have come about because of Check 21. I went to work for a start up that didn't have the baggage that sunk those exisiting companies, but during that time I witnessed a lot of careers ruined by the ham fisted imposition of poorly thought out govt regulation.

I find it funny though, that so many people don't seem to give a damn that thousands of ordinary people's lives and/or careers were upended by piss poor govt planning.

And don't believe a word Joe says, Check 21 only has to do with the legality of a check image in place of the original check and has NOTHING to do with an Electronic Wallet.

 

[spidergoat]

No, I listed 3 companies that went under, about 5,000 jobs, but there were a lot more than that industry wide.

But that wasn't my point, just that Gov Regulation can indeed cause job loss.

In this case, it was unusually ham fisted in that the government could have made the transition a lot less disruptive had they given it any thought to the overall impact of announcing a change well before they could actually implement the change, but the regulators (the Fed) were simply not concerned with the impacts they were causing to the existing Software and Hardware manufacturers, they seemed only interested to the impact they had on the Banks.

Which is my general take on Gov regulations. They are often done with good intention, but they often have other unintended consequences that cause harm.

Arthur

You have made your point then, but that's hardly the same the deregulation push on the part of large corporations. They do tend to want to be able to pollute with impunity, avoid hazardous waste cleanup, avoid expensive equipment that would have, for instance, prevented the Gulf Oil Spill. Sometimes some job loss is acceptable if the people as a whole benefit. Corporations externalize the costs of bad air and bad water, perhaps they should not be allowed to do that.

 

[joepistole]

I have nothing to weep about, I'm still in the business and have been quite successful, with much of my new software related to changes that have come about because of Check 21. I went to work for a start up that didn't have the baggage that sunk those exisiting companies, but during that time I witnessed a lot of careers ruined by the ham fisted imposition of poorly thought out govt regulation.

I find it funny though, that so many people don't seem to give a damn that thousands of ordinary people's lives and/or careers were upended by piss poor govt planning.

And don't believe a word Joe says, Check 21 only has to do with the legality of a check image in place of the original check and has NOTHING to do with an Electronic Wallet.

LOL, No one said Check 21 had anything to do with the Electronic Wallet other than it is new technology. And when new technology is introduced there are winners and their are loosers. You were on the loosing side. It's called capitalism. You know one of those things you are supposed to be for.

I find it ironic, but consistent with those who hold your political POV, that you are blaming government for the very free markets you claim to revere.

http://www.check21direct.com/

http://www.bankersonline.com/articles/bhv14n02/bhv14n02a10.html

So while your company got caught with it's pants down with Check 21 others did not:

ATLANTA--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 13, 2003--

Comprehensive Offerings for Check Truncation and
Conversion Include Software, Services and Image Capture
With NCR RealPOS(TM) 7167 Printer

Leveraging its leadership in check-imaging solutions for financial institutions, NCR Corporation (NYSE:NCR) today unveiled a range of products and services to help retailers reap the benefits of digital check imaging at the point of sale (POS).

The NCR RealPOS(TM) 7167 multifunction printer is now available with a digital check-imaging module, for fast and accurate image capture at the POS. The new printer functionality, together with NCR's comprehensive software and service offerings, provides retailers a single-source option for check truncation or electronic check conversion solutions.

The federal "Check 21" legislation, which was signed into law on Oct. 28 and will become effective next year, permits the use of digital images as replacements for original paper checks throughout the nation's banking system.

"Truncation streamlines check handling and speeds the clearing process to give retailers faster access to their cash," said NCR Vice President of Retail Solutions Product Management Pete Bartolotta. "With Check 21, image exchange will become more widespread, making truncation even more attractive to retailers."

Check imaging, which is required for businesses to take advantage of Check 21, offers additional advantages to retailers, including the capture of information for consumer marketing, added fraud protection and faster processing of checks returned for non-sufficient funds.

Stores that implement check conversion instead of check truncation can also benefit from image capture. With check conversion, a store can use the magnetic ink character recognition (MICR)-reading capabilities of the NCR RealPOS 7167 to "convert" a customer's paper check into an electronic debit transaction and return the voided check to the shopper. The addition of imaging enhances the conversion process, providing an unambiguous record of check information and added security.

Currently installed NCR RealPOS 7167 printers with the MICR reader option can be upgraded to include the check-imaging module.

NCR's check-imaging offerings include its proven ImageMark(TM) software, a flexible and scalable platform for image capture and processing at the store, regional office or chain headquarters. ImageMark and the NCR RealPOS 7167 can be integrated with NCR store automation applications such as Advanced Checkout Solution or Advanced Store, as well as with open third-party POS software.

In addition, NCR is working with software partners, including ACI Worldwide and AJB Software Design Inc. to provide enterprise-level check truncation routing and processing capabilities.

Check imaging also presents retailers with an additional opportunity to efficiently capture information for customer relationship management applications such as those offered by Teradata, a division of NCR.

With a complete range of consulting, development and integration, installation, education and maintenance services, NCR can help assure a successful check-imaging solution implementation at any point in the enterprise.

"NCR's years of experience serving the technology needs of both the financial and retail industries uniquely positions us to help businesses design and implement effective check-imaging strategies," said NCR Vice President of Payment Solutions Ruth Fornell. "No other company offers a comparable level of expertise combined with end-to-end solutions extending from the checkout to the enterprise level." - NCR Press Release

http://investor.ncr.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=83840&p=irol-newsArticle_print&ID=469871&highlight=

Your company got caught with it's pants down on this and instead of understanding that it is just good old free market competition, you want to blame government instead.

 

[Gustav]

LOL, you are funny. No one said Check 21 had anything to do with the Electronic Wallet other than it is new technology. And when new technology is introduced there are winners and their are loosers. You were on the loosing side. It's called capitalism. You know one of those things you are supposed to be for.

hahaha

LOL

Works like a charm.

hehehe

 

[adoucette]

You have made your point then, but that's hardly the same the deregulation push on the part of large corporations. They do tend to want to be able to pollute with impunity, avoid hazardous waste cleanup, avoid expensive equipment that would have, for instance, prevented the Gulf Oil Spill. Sometimes some job loss is acceptable if the people as a whole benefit. Corporations externalize the costs of bad air and bad water, perhaps they should not be allowed to do that.

Deregulation is not the same as the ability to pollute with impunity.

Not all companies want to pollute.
Many people LIVE where their companies are located and are very concerned with their impact on the environment.

There was no expensive equipment that would have prevented the Gulf Oil Spill. It was human error. The people on the rig misread the negative well pressure test and thought the well cement job was holding.

It wasn't.

They didn't notice the indictations that the cement job had failed and that oil was coming up the well for an hour and the acceleration of the flow as the gas expanded in the well bore caused a piece of drilling pipe to jam in the BOP preventing the blind shear ram from doing it's job and shutting off the well bore.

It was a state of the art BOP.

Arthur