Nigger! or not...

O

Oli

Heute der Enteteich...
Registered Senior Member
I don't know how many of you have heard about Peter (Lord of the Rings) Jackson's proposed remake of The Dambusters film, but one point of contention is over one particular word: the name of Guy Gibson's dog (and also the code word used to indicate the bombs had been dropped).
Should political correctness outweigh historical accuracy (and "respect" - the dog's grave is actually a war memorial at RAF Scampton from where the mission flew)?

The latest I've heard on this that the RAF will refuse any cooperation with Jackson at all should he choose to re-name the dog for the film.
Thoughts?
 
The dog's name should be left. The code word to indicate the bomb was dropped? Changed. Changing a name is off base. While it's racist, I think a name has important connotations to the owner here. The code thing? Out. It's just not necessary and adds nothing to the story other than being disgusting and vulgar.
 
Well the code word was chosen as such because it was the dog's name - IIRC from the old B&W film, they decided to use it as the code word because Gibson's dog was in the room while the mission was being being planned.
 
Would you watch a film version of Huck Finn where they use the real dialogue? They should use the real terms and include a disclaimer at the beginning.
 
I think one thing about it that the word never quite had the same connotations in the UK as it did in, say, the US.
I even remember my grandfather having a dog by that name.
 
spidergoat said:
Would you watch a film version of Huck Finn where they use the real dialogue? They should use the real terms and include a disclaimer at the beginning.
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Yes, however, Huck Finn's a valuable piece of literature. I love Twain. Modern things like this where you KNOW they're going to cough up "nigger" every chance they get are not masterpieces. They're an excuse to put the hoodoo on darkie.

Huck = social satire.

This = probably war gun hate masturbation
 
If it follows the original it's more about the development of the device used than its actual use.
 
Just because a name means someting in one time frame doesn't mean it means the same thing in the future. They could use another word to depict whatever it is they are talking about without losing any sense of "historical" facts as long as the facts are presented the way they actually happened, leaving out the one word and substituting another in its place.

As an example there were spies that had real names, are we going to make movies and release those peoples real names in a movie about their spying abilities? That would surely bring many problems to them or their families if they are still alive.

That being said I will not attend such a movie using derogatory language about any race of peoples.
 
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Great post Oli. Very controversial and interesting given Jackson's typical dedication to accuracy and artistic integrity. Considering the guy has devoted himself to everything from comical zombies to softcore porn made with muppets, this shouldn't be too tall an order.

IMO, screw political correctness. Use the original term for the sake of accuracy rather than substituting a less risque name or codeword. I actually see lots of current movies made using that term in context for accuracies sake.

That word is really less a stereotypical reference these days and more of a general slang expression anyhow. It's fast becoming one of those "determined by context" words.

I'll tell you what I think is fascinating. That's our president. He has ultimately and undeniably proved that "black" is as "black" does. He is truly a man who has evolved far beyond the social context of color IMO. Man is it ever cool to see something like this in my lifetime. I grew up in a 40/60 black/white environment. I KNOW what it is to recognize the progressively debilitating nature of an identity crisis inspired form of social separatism. No one can, or ever will, hold you back like you and your false pride.

I say let history be always retold accurate so that the future can be clearly juxtaposed against it as dismissively triumphant.
 
I don't see why it's racist. The history of the word is for the colour black, it's from romance languages, and Gibson's dog, was a black labrador. He was effectively calling a black dog, black.

So there are other connotations that are used it a derogatory fashion. That doesn't mean the word gets a universal veto. To try and erase it is political correctness gone mad.

If we are going to be that PC, will people start objecting to Disney, and 'Snow White', because it's offensive to white people?
 
I think we're seeing a US/ UK divide on the subject - in the UK (until we got so much US influence) "Nigger" for a dog simple meant that the dog was entirely black - certainly as a child growing up with my grandfather's dog I never once connected the word to anything else.
 
You know PRECISELY why it's racist. The word cunt comes from cune/queen, but it's sexist because it's used to degrade women, regardless of archaic meaning. If the dog's name was Cunt, I would object.
 
Oli said:
I think we're seeing a US/ UK divide on the subject - in the UK (until we got so much US influence) "Nigger" for a dog simple meant that the dog was entirely black - certainly as a child growing up with my grandfather's dog I never once connected the word to anything else.
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I have to be honest with you. When I first started out working in the back rooms and shops of the business that I am in, and have been all my life, I knew older white people that would come in and had dogs named Nigger. Most of the time the dogs were all black, but truthfully, that wasn't always the reason. Sometimes it was said to be based on a reputation for the dog either (a) not liking them, or (b) biting them. "Them" being those of the black race. Sad but true.
 
It won't be better than the original so who cares?

Was the guy actually even racist? Or was he just being clever? After all I'm sure he loved that nigger dog more than you can ever imagine, so if you're racist why would you call something you love nigger?:shrug:
 
Anti-Flag said:
Was the guy actually even racist? Or was he just being clever? After all I'm sure he loved that nigger dog more than you can ever imagine, so if you're racist why would you call something you love nigger?:shrug:
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You are talking about a period of time where peoples perceptions were somewhat different. I wouldn't suggest that everyone termed someone who was black as "Nigger", I'm pretty sure terms like "Darkies" or "Blackies" was used.

The reason for this was at that point of time the country was predominantly white and while there was indeed ethnic people living amongst Britons, the number was low enough to cause "Intrigue". (Back then they were more likely to ask where they were from and what that part of the world looked like etc)

Incidentally the racial terms that might of started to creep in during the late 1950's and early 1960's was due to the influx of Commonwealth citizens being invited over to England to help rebuilt from the war. At first they would be welcome as guests, but slowly as generations (of English) grew up not all of them would of known about the invitation or the reason the country was changing, they would of been racist/radicals.

It's possible that terms to reflect "intrigue" were replaced by hate towards someone they saw as being different and slowly taking over areas of their towns/cities.

Obviously in modern times it's been identified that such terms as "Nigger" are "Racist" and demeaning, however in historical plays and films it's understood that the terms from the day should indeed be used. (I mean imagine if Othello was reworked... It wouldn't be the same play.)
 
Stryder said:
You are talking about a period of time where peoples perceptions were somewhat different. I wouldn't suggest that everyone termed someone who was black as "Nigger", I'm pretty sure terms like "Darkies" or "Blackies" was used.

The reason for this was at that point of time the country was predominantly white and while there was indeed ethnic people living amongst Britons, the number was low enough to cause "Intrigue". (Back then they were more likely to ask where they were from and what that part of the world looked like etc)

Incidentally the racial terms that might of started to creep in during the late 1950's and early 1960's was due to the influx of Commonwealth citizens being invited over to England to help rebuilt from the war. At first they would be welcome as guests, but slowly as generations (of English) grew up not all of them would of known about the invitation or the reason the country was changing, they would of been racist/radicals.

It's possible that terms to reflect "intrigue" were replaced by hate towards someone they saw as being different and slowly taking over areas of their towns/cities.

Obviously in modern times it's been identified that such terms as "Nigger" are "Racist" and demeaning, however in historical plays and films it's understood that the terms from the day should indeed be used. (I mean imagine if Othello was reworked... It wouldn't be the same play.)
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I think that's pretty much the point. Isn't it better to educate the current people that words change over time and it wasn't necessarily considered racist by those of the time, from our perspective we probably consider it to be almost from ignorance or insensitivity.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on racial hatred but given the obvious affection he would have felt towards the dog I wouldn't have thought of him as a racist. It just doesn't make sense to me, so given that it's not used in an offensive context isn't it ok to let it slide? I'm not a fan of PC though and I think I agree with Phlog.
 
Oli said:
...The latest I've heard on this that the RAF will refuse any cooperation with Jackson at all should he choose to re-name the dog for the film.
Thoughts?
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How can they change it? It's not fiction. It would be like making a film about the civil rights era and pretending the word was never used.
Its wrong to white wash history.
 
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