Neferititi

[Michael]

I came across this reconstruction of Neferititi based on the bust found in Egypt. She does look rather regal. Stunning really. Greek mercenaries, often employed by the Egyptians, learned to sculpt and create art from the Egyptians and hence Western civilization is, in a sense, connected here.

Anyway, the CG art was so nice I thought I would post it here.

Nefertiti (the beauty that has come) was the Great Royal Wife (or chief consort/wife) of the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep IV (later Akhenaten). She was the mother-in-law and probable stepmother of the Pharaoh Tutankhamun. One of her daughters married Tutankhamen. Nefertiti may have also ruled in her own right under the name Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti (meaning, the Aten is radiant of radiance because the Beautiful has arrived) briefly after her husband's death and before the accession of Tutankhamun. Her name roughly translates to "the beautiful (or perfect) woman has come"

 

[BoSmoke]

Shes beautiful. Wouldnt those god-queens back in ancient times order the painters and sculpters to make them look perfect though? And from the shape of her face, I cant help thinking some modern European woman was the model - not an African.

Nefertiti mustnt be mixed up with Nefertari, wife of Ramases the second.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I came across this reconstruction of Neferititi based on the bust found in Egypt. She does look rather regal. Stunning really. Greek mercenaries, often employed by the Egyptians, learned to sculpt and create art from the Egyptians and hence Western civilization is, in a sense, connected here.

Anyway, the CG art was so nice I thought I would post it here.

Nefertiti (the beauty that has come) was the Great Royal Wife (or chief consort/wife) of the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep IV (later Akhenaten). She was the mother-in-law and probable stepmother of the Pharaoh Tutankhamun. One of her daughters married Tutankhamen. Nefertiti may have also ruled in her own right under the name Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti (meaning, the Aten is radiant of radiance because the Beautiful has arrived) briefly after her husband's death and before the accession of Tutankhamun. Her name roughly translates to "the beautiful (or perfect) woman has come"

*************
M*W: This portrait of Nefertiti is probably a composite reconstruction, but it is very close to the carved head of Nefertiti that was found lying in the sands of central Egypt. She is a royal beauty now in the Berlin Museum. Your history of Nefertiti is correct. She was the wife of Amenhotep IV (later Akenhaten, also known as the Moses of the OT). The history I've read about King Tut-ankh-amen, she has been described as his mother. Akhenaten had several wives and many children. He's been known to dilly dally with other men, including his brother Smenhkhare (also known as Aaron in the OT).

She has been a fascinating study for all time.

 

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

Shes beautiful. Wouldnt those god-queens back in ancient times order the painters and sculpters to make them look perfect though? And from the shape of her face, I cant help thinking some modern European woman was the model - not an African.

I know I am about to open a can of worms, but the ancient egyptians were not "africans". At least, not the ruling class. They were more like modern "North Africans", i.e the people you would find living in modern Egypt, the Middle East, etc.

There were africans in ancient egypt, but they were mostly only brought as slaves from down the Nile.

 

[The Devil Inside]

Your history of Nefertiti is correct. She was the wife of Amenhotep IV (later Akenhaten, also known as the Moses of the OT). The history I've read about King Tut-ankh-amen, she has been described as his mother. Akhenaten had several wives and many children. He's been known to dilly dally with other men, including his brother Smenhkhare (also known as Aaron in the OT).

do you have proof of this?
this is all conjecture, and part of a larger agenda.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

do you have proof of this?

this is all conjecture, and part of a larger agenda.

*************
M*W: Devil, darling, I have read a book or two on this subject. If a larger agenda were involved, I would have brought Nefertiti's representation in astro-theology, but Nefertiti, I believe, was a real human being who was herself a player in Aten (sun) worship, much to Moses' delight. Nefertiti was royalty in her own right and shared the pharonic throne equally with Moses.

Osman states that "Tutankhamun, the 10-year-old son of Akhenaten (Moses), came to the throne of Egypt as sole ruler in 1361 BC after the abdication of his father and the disappearance of Semenkhkare. Some doubts have been expressed--as seems to be common abaout any aspect of the Armarna period--about the parenthood of the young king, who at this time bore the name Tutankhaten." Osman goes on to say, "Akhenaten (Moses) had a co-regency with his father, Amenhotep III (Solomon), for 12 years, then ruled alone for five. The birth of Tutankhamun to his father's Year 7 would make him 10 years of age when he came to the throne and 19 when he died at the end of his short reign."

Nefertiti was Moses' sister/wife who came from her own regal origin. Their marriage was arranged. They had three daughters, Tutankhkamen, and three more daughters after him.

Please see:

Nefertiti and Cleopatra: Queen Monarchs of Ancient Egypt, by Julia Samson, 1985.

The Life and Times of Akhnaton, Pharaoh of Egypt, by Authur Weigall, 2000.

Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, by Ahmed Osman, 2002.

Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion, Ahmed Osman, 2005.

 

[The Devil Inside]

ill be sure to see if the library has any of those when i go there tomorrow to return the other books you recommended. (good reads, btw)

i have read the third on your list. its "pseudo"-everything i can think of.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

ill be sure to see if the library has any of those when i go there tomorrow to return the other books you recommended. (good reads, btw)

i have read the third on your list. its "pseudo"-everything i can think of.

*************
M*W: I like Ahmed Osman. He's easy enough to read and as far as I know respected in his field.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I know I am about to open a can of worms, but the Ancient Egyptians were not "Africans". At least, not the ruling class. They were more like modern "North Africans", i.e the people you would find living in modern Egypt, the Middle East, etc.

There is much controversy over the ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians. There were many migrations of peoples in that region during the long eras before civilization sprang up so it's not easy to guess which one settled down and built the pyramids. As far as I can tell, no one has yet done DNA analysis of an Egyptian mummy to resolve it. Without that this is all speculation.

The people who now live in Egypt are descendants of the Muslim invaders from Asia who conquered Egypt and destroyed its civilization, with a bit of true Egyptian blood from the conquered people. There's no good reason to suspect that the Ancient Egyptians were close relatives of the ancestors of the Arabs, who were quite localized during the Pharaonic Era. Nonetheless their language was in the Cushitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic family, which also includes the Semitic branch, so there's at least some evidence that they were distant relatives. It's widely assumed that the Egyptians were a distinct ethnic group from the sub-Saharan Africans. But still, this is all conjecture pending a DNA reading.

 

[Oxygen]

Maybe I'm unclear on the subject. When you guys say "African", are you talking the darker skinned races? Because a lot of murals I've seen from ancient Egypt depict people of so many varying skin tones ranging from very pale to very dark. I always assumed that their society had as diverse an ethnic make-up as we can see today, but as the faces were almost uniform (unless someone had a distinct feature), it was hard to tell what ethnicity they were depicting in an individual figure.

Given the region's locale, I always assumed the default to be something close to the MIddle-Eastern appearance.

 

[Pandaemoni]

There is much controversy over the ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians. There were many migrations of peoples in that region during the long eras before civilization sprang up so it's not easy to guess which one settled down and built the pyramids. As far as I can tell, no one has yet done DNA analysis of an Egyptian mummy to resolve it. Without that this is all speculation.

It's further complicated by the fact that Egypt has a major invasion from Asia (the Hyksos) some time after the Old Kingdom ended as well as by the fact that the "afircans" (undisputed) to the south of Egypt today do not conform to what 18th and 19th century archeologists thought of as "African". They have finer features, thinner noses, etc., than the stereotype of what many thought of as "Negroid." (Think of the Somalian model Iman, as one image of that population, and she looks strikingly like that Nefertiti model posted above, to me, despite her being "African.") At the time those different features were imagined to be the product of interbreeding with Asian populations, but more modern scholars have suggested that might not be the major contributing factor. It may simply be that this was the ancestral population of those who later left Africa and colonized the rest of the world in the "Out of Africa" model.

 

[BoSmoke]

*************Akhenaten had several wives and many children. He's been known to dilly dally with other men, including his brother Smenhkhare (also known as Aaron in the OT).

About him being gay AND doing incest with his brother (as well as married to his sister) - do we really know all this? Is it writen somewhere n hieroglyphs? I thought it was only the ancient Greeks who approved of man-luv.

Tutankhamun, the 10-year-old son of Akhenaten (Moses).... had a co-regency with his father, Amenhotep III (Solomon), for 12 years...

How do these names Moses, Aaron and Solomon relate to the familiar Hebrew ones in teh Old Testament? Is it just co-insidence? Or did the Egyptians call the prophet Moses "Akhenaten" as well and was AmenhotepIII named after the Bible's king Solomon?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

About him being gay AND doing incest with his brother (as well as married to his sister) - do we really know all this? Is it writen somewhere n hieroglyphs? I thought it was only the ancient Greeks who approved of man-luv.

*************
M*W: I didn't say he was "gay," nor have I read anything that would indicate so. Since I don't know how to read the hieroglyphs, I trust the scholars who do.

I listed four books for TDI on this subject, plus some Internet web sites confirm the information in the books. My understanding of Moses's sexual practices certainly outweigh any clues found from the Exodus. Current scholarly belief is that the Exodus didn't occur. Moses, otoh, was no different than any other man from his culture and day. I wouldn't call them "gay" or "bi," I just think their sexual encounters may have been nothing more than social custom, but it wasn't frowned upon.

In ancient Egyptian culture, marrying one's sister was common place. The royal line was ensured. Take Abraham and Sarah, for instance, Sarah was Abraham's half-sister. Abraham had many wives and children after Sarah died, as did Hagar. The truth of the story of Abraham and Hagar is that he maintained a relationship with Hagar and Ishmael and spent time with them in Medina??? or was it Mecca??? I can't remember.

How do these names Moses, Aaron and Solomon relate to the familiar Hebrew ones in teh Old Testament? Is it just co-insidence? Or did the Egyptians call the prophet Moses "Akhenaten" as well and was AmenhotepIII named after the Bible's king Solomon

?

*************
M*W: You've asked some very good questions!

From Egypt of the Pharaohs, by Alan H. Gardiner, 1961:

Regarding the 18th Dynasty, Moses had many names/titles. His mother (or sister/mother) named him "Aminadab" at birth. When he was lifted from the river, he was given the title "Moses" which means "taken from the water." He was raised in the royal house of Amenhotep III (a title for Solomon). Moses was given the royal title of Amenhotep IV. When Moses began his reign with his sister/wife Nefertiti, who were both fanatical sun worshippers, he changed his name to Akhenaten.

Aaron was more of an Habiru (later Hebrew) name. Aaron, Moses' brother, was named Semenkhkare. He ruled for only 3 years after Moses, then the throne went to Moses' son, Tutankhhamun who reigned for 9 years.

Although you didn't mention David, Gardiner says he was Tuthmosis III who reigned for 54 years and was the longest reigning pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty. Contrary to the bible, David was not Solomon's father. David, or Tuthmosis III, was the father of Amenhotep II, the grandfather of Tuthmosis IV, and the great grandfather of Amenhotep III (Solomon). According to Gardiner, Solomon was the father of Moses (Akhenaten). Moses' reign lasted 17 years.

 

[BoSmoke]

Then Alan Gardiner really thought the book of Exodus and after were more like allegorys, bits of history taken and put together wrong way by Hewbrew priests who had their own agenda?

Current scholarly belief is that the Exodus didn't occur.

I truly never imagined imagined that maybe Moses of the Bible (and the movies) DIDN'T lead his people into freedom from Pharoah, but that he WAS the Pharoah...
You seems to be saying that like Israel or Canaan was part of Egypt back in the Pharoahs' times and the Bible characters were really Egyptian royals. Were the Egyptians and the Hebrews realy the same people, not master and slave races? So why did the Hebrews keep believing in 1 God when the Egyptians went back to their old gods after Akhenaten died?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Then Alan Gardiner really thought the book of Exodus and after were more like allegorys, bits of history taken and put together wrong way by Hewbrew priests who had their own agenda?

*************
M*W: Alan Gardiner was just one scholar who said the Exodus never occurred. There have been a slew of other reputable scholars who concur.

I won't go so far to say the Hebrews had their own agenda. They were a minor tribe of shepherds in lower Egypt not too far from Canaan as it were. In fact, had there been an exodus, they wouldn't have traveled that far anyway. They were essentially right there near Canaan.

The forerunners of the Hebrews were monotheists, but their monotheism was for Aten, the Sun God. They also worshipped the moon god which came before sun worship, but when they started worshipping the sun, they became monotheists.

I truly never imagined imagined that maybe Moses of the Bible (and the movies) DIDN'T lead his people into freedom from Pharoah, but that he WAS the Pharoah...

*************
M*W: I think we all believe that Moses looked like Charlton Heston. I know Ben Hur did. The bible clearly states that Moses led the Exodus, but that has turned out not to be true. What else is there in the bible that is not true?

You seems to be saying that like Israel or Canaan was part of Egypt back in the Pharoahs' times and the Bible characters were really Egyptian royals. Were the Egyptians and the Hebrews realy the same people, not master and slave races? So why did the Hebrews keep believing in 1 God when the Egyptians went back to their old gods after Akhenaten died?

*************
M*W: That is what I am saying. I don't feel comfortable saying that the Egyptians and Hebrews had a master-slave relationship. They were all Egyptian, and if the Hebrews seemed to be a lower group of people, it was because they were common shepherds and not royalty per se. To say the Habiru were slaves would be closer to the truth if Moses had led them somewhere. They would have then been the slaves of Moses. The exodus story may have had a place in history, but not during the time of the bible Exodus but much much earlier. There is always the possibility that the bible stories may have occurred thousands of years earlier than they were written (or copied from older texts). I believe there was a Moses, although some scholars say there wasn't such a person. I follow the work of Ahmed Osman and Alan Gardiner, et al.

Then there is the rare explanation that the Exodus took place astrologically and was the movement of stars or constellations. I haven't researched this point however.

But, yes, to answer your query, Moses was Egyptian royalty and not an Egyptian slave, although he had his own troubles with the royalty, and that is why he supposedly fled. It was not because he had murdered a man, it was because of his fanatical belief in Aten worship. He and his wife Nefertiti were both monotheistic sun worshippers.

 

[BoSmoke]

I think we all believe that Moses looked like Charlton Heston. I know Ben Hur did. The bible clearly states that Moses led the Exodus, but that has turned out not to be true. What else is there in the bible that is not true?

You got a point there I guess, not many still think the book of Genesis is all true!

to answer your query, Moses was Egyptian royalty and not an Egyptian slave, although he had his own troubles with the royalty, and that is why he supposedly fled..

So do you think he reallly fled Egypt some time? I cant think the later Jews wouldv liked the idea of their prophet marrying his sister so theyd have to separate him from Pharoah (who ever that was).

Just looked at Wikipedia, it says Sigmund Freud had a different idea of Moses -

Freud postulated that Moses was an Egyptian nobleman who adhered to the monotheism of Akhenaten. Freud also believed that Moses was murdered in the wilderness, producing a collective sense of patricidal guilt that has been at the heart of Judaism ever since. "Judaism had been a religion of the father, Christianity became a religion of the son", he wrote. The possible Egyptian origin of Moses and of his message has received significant scholarly attention. Opponents of this view observe that the religion of the Torah seems very different to Atenism in everything except the central feature of devotion to a single god, although this has been countered by a variety of arguments, e.g. pointing out the similarities between the Hymn to Aten and Psalm 104.