nature of evil vs. the world

Tiassa

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
The following excerpts are taken from:

Russell, Jeffrey Burton. "Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages". Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1984.

I would like to add three contextual notes:

* Burton is writing according to key assumptions of Christian faith.
* These excerpts are from the first chapter, and I would ask that they be taken with the consideration that some 300 pages of text follow.
* I have not actually finished reading this volume, and cannot argue for or against Mr. Burton's assumptions or conclusions.

Bearing this in mind, I would love the chance to explore how the evil we all see in the world fits into "The Plan", as such.

* * * * *

"Unless the Devil is perceived as the personification of real evil, he becomes meaningless." (20)

"The conscious and deliberate inflicting of suffering is the heart of violence and of moral evil. 'Natural evils' such as floods and muscular dystrophy are also examples of violence. They cannot be dismissed as morally neutral or as logical necessities in the cosmos. If God is responsible for the world, he is responsible for these natural evils and the suffering they entail. The doctrine of double effect cannot relieve God from responsibility. 'Double effect' is the distinction between what a person strictly intends by an action and what that person foresees as its probable results; for example, if a person sees two people drowning at the same distance away, he may swim out to save one, intending what is good for him, while knowing that the other will probably drown. The limitations of 'double effect' are clear from another example: a person who sets off a nuclear war with the intention of freeing the world from injustice. It seems impossible that an omniscient God does not intend what he knows absolutely will result. God knows, surely and clearly, that in creating the cosmos he creates a cosmos in which children are tortured." (20-21)

* * * * *

I would also ask your pardon that I have not included my own opinions in this initial post; while I have some opinions on the subject, I'd rather not spin it into a tangent quite yet. (Thank you :cool: )

--Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited January 21, 2000).]
 
The pain that God felt in the beginning of creation is evident, because he created a way out for us through his own seed (Christ). The fallen angel who chose to set his will above Gods opened man up to being able to choose.. In the garden man was decieved and therefore he and all of man suffered the consequences.. God does have power to stop the pain, the cries of the innocent.. But the world was lost in the garden and the power of stopping those cries all comes down to a choice. This world now is open to the power of satan and his legions of chiefs who set up powers over the earth and the sky (cosmos). Until his time is over the only way to stop the cries of the innocent is through the mighty power of Gods way out for us all Christ. You can choose to reject him or you can choose to believe through having just a little bit of faith.........Our hearts cry and suffer too for the cries of the innocent, for the injustice that abounds, God did not cause any of this, his plan was to have fellowship with us, the enemy has created the evil that abounds in all of us, in those that are hungry, abused, murdered, etc. How do we stop the enemy? If everyone is born good why do these atrocities happen? They will continue to happen until the time comes for satan to meet his fate........LOL
 
Soo, why doesn't God just get rid of Satan? All powerful, and all of that - why does he choose to allow Satan to do as he wishes?

Furthermore, if God knew all along that this was how it was going to work out, why did he create Satan in the first place?? Why did he allow Satan free will? Why did he allow Satan to fall instead of just destroying him like God did to eveyone but Noah during the flood? Why did he allow us to have a free will in the first place? If we never had it, we wouldn't miss it, so why give it to us in the first place? Why didn't he protect his garden better? Why didn't he just create us "with him" in a place where evil could never reach? It doesn't make sense unless you decide that one of the following must be the case:

1. God is not as powerful as thought.
2. Satan is MORE powerful than God
3. God doesn't exist
4. God doesn't actually care about humans, he just cares about his own glory
5. God does exist, but humans aren't his chosen species, cockroaches are. (Hey, we're making a pretty damn good world for the cockroaches - how do we know the Lord Cockroach didn't just create us to support his multi-legged minions?)
6. Fill in the blanks, I'm sure I left a bunch more out.

Have fun with that one.
 
Maybe because He knew He would have never gotten the opportunity to know you and I....

[This message has been edited by Micah (edited January 21, 2000).]
 
From the example of the drowning people, I'd say that evil is a matter of perspective. If I may throw in an example from real life:

In WW2 many bomber pilots (particularly of B-17s) had to face the "Bloody Tail" landing, a horrendous situation in which the belly-gunner was trapped in his turret, unable to escape, and the landing gear were not operational, even by manual cranking. The poor kid in the belly was doomed. The pilot had to land an airplane on top of him, which was going to happen one way or the other, either intentionally, or else by default when the plane ran out of fuel and came in on top of him. The only conceivable way to save him would be to barrel-roll at ground level and snap the wings off... the resulting cartwheeling of which would kill everybody else on board, and probably the belly-gunner as well. The only other way out of this situation was to hand the kid a gun and let him make the choice: ride it on in, or commit suicide. It's a true no-win situation that had to be faced by pilots often no older than 19.

Is it evil to kill the belly-gunner? Maybe to the belly-gunner, or maybe to the person who cannot comprehend the direness of the situation. To the boys that survived to see their friend and crewmate wind up as a red smear down the tarmac, it was a necessary evil carried out as a sacrifice. It was also a memory that will haunt them to their dying days.

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
 
Oxygen,

That is a well thought out statement.

God Loved us even before He knew us personally,
ISDAMan
 
Micah,

You talk of God having a plan. Why does he need a plan? He is meant to have perfect knowledge of past present and future, he is meant to know what is going to happen. And if he wants us to know something why doesn't he just give us the knowledge and move right to the end game? Why all the mess in the middle? We would use a plan to help us get to some place in the future. Is God so imperfect that he just isn't sure where he is going?

Christians talk a lot about faith and give it emphasis as if it is something special. You realise that faith is simply belief without proof. Christians know that there is no proof of the existence of God hence they must stress faith.

And your statement -

Maybe because He knew He would have never gotten the opportunity to know you and I....

is nonsense. If he wants to know us there should be nothing that could stop him.

And ISDAMan your statement -

God Loved us even before He knew us personally,

Is also nonsense. It implies that there was a time when God did not know something, but he is meant to be omniscient.

And this free will stuff - again if God is omniscient then he knows exactly what actions we are going to take. This means that those people that are 'bad' have simply been created to face eternity in torment, they simply did not have any choice in the matter. God made things that way? Seems kind of sick to me. The free will claim has to be a sham.
 
While I do actually hold a viewpoint that regards much of what I perceive as evil to be "logical necessities in the cosmos", my initial instinct is to agree with Russell in the context of the cosmos being arranged according to an omniscient God. Thus, I have to throw that argument out for the time being.

Which leads me to consider issues of God's will. What if God's Plan for humanity is part of a larger scheme? Perhaps, somehow, human nature drives a progressive balancing act prone to wipe out large sections of the population in dramatic events like wars or even disasters. Similarly, the societal dissolution encouraged by local acts of human violence might play a part in it. Thus, much of what we regard as evil still belongs in The Plan ... it serves a cause greater than the human relationship with God.

Mmmmmmmaybe . . . .

thanx,
Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
Tiassa,

Quote:
Which leads me to consider issues of God's will. What if God's Plan for humanity is part of a larger scheme? Perhaps, somehow, human nature drives a progressive balancing act prone to wipe out large sections of the population in dramatic events like wars or even disasters. Similarly, the societal dissolution encouraged by local acts of human violence might play a part in it. Thus, much of what we regard as evil still belongs in The Plan ... it serves a cause greater than the human relationship with God.


Though my ongoing theory involves evolution as the protagonist rather than God (though it might end up being God eventually), I think I'm saying something similar.
In that the natural cycles of birth and rebirth, generation and regenaration throughout the universe does make death and destruction an inevitable part of the whole process.
As a consequence of this, organic life is doomed to suffer because of the sheer nature of the cosmos, but organic life is purely incidental to the whole and to the ultimate and has to suffer for a reason.

To put this in some light hearted perspective, here is an extract from my as yet unpublished novel, 'The Guru Cake'..

‘So, listen to this,’ continued the Eggy.
‘I found myself in the most wondrously amazing place. Everywhere was light… just, this beautiful, warm light. Even I, was made of pure light. Nothing else could be seen, but the light itself seemed to be made up of living things and we all felt a great affinity for each other, like we were all one and the same thing and we were filled with the wisdom of the universe.’
‘Wow,’ they said.
‘What is the greatest wisdom in the universe?’
‘The wisdom of the universe cannot have anything which is the greatest and neither can it have anything which is the least, it is a whole and you cannot take away from it, but to it is added even more wisdom with every passing moment.
Having said that, earthly wisdom manifests itself in many different ways and there are many who would describe it as a mystery, because wisdom is not always obvious!’ he said.
‘So what is the universal wisdom then?’ they asked.
‘Hm, the wisdom of the universe for organic life is a way of life and it’s a thing called love! True love creates and eggolves and gets bigger and stronger over time, caring and nurturing, just like the whole universe does naturally. And the general consensus back in the big bright infinite light, is that love is eggtually the driving force behind the whole of creation. Therefore, the whole wisdom of the universe is based on love, especially love for others!’ said the Free Range Eggy.
‘What is love?’ they asked.
‘What is love! Love, my dear confectionery friends, is patient. Love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it, is not self seeking. Love is not easily angered, it keeps no records of wrongs, it always forgives, it does not lie, does not steal and it does not kill. Love is perfection… In the light, everything is perfect, but as the light eggolves into the whole universe, the dynamics of the process sometimes give the impression that love does not exist. Because eggolution involves natural destruction, as well as creation and this produces confusion amongst some intelligent life forms, but it is all a fundamental aspect of the main creation and the motivating factor of the main creation is love. So the most important thing for you to remember is to always do everything with love, always being creative and never destructive and to realise that you are one and the same with absolutely everything else in the cosmos!’ he said.
‘Where does the light come from?’ they asked.
‘The light is infinite, it has no beginning and no end but there was a rumour floating around that it first appeared out of a tiny little black hole in space, created by a great love from the other side of the hole! but we’re not really sure. Even all the wisdom in the universe can’t know everything.
;)
Copyright...C. Yeoryiou 'The Guru Cake'
Please do not use without permission from the author. :cool:
 
It was mans desire "to know" everything that cost the world.. Some questions we will not understand until God himself reveals them to us. Yes, it is by the act of "faith" that we believe in is all perfect power, it is by the act of "trust" that we believe he loves us completely and his "will" is perfect for our lives. Our minds are not like Gods, how could we ever understand the power of glory that created all things? It is our pride that drives us to continually challenge God, to actually believe that our ways are the slightest like Gods is futile to him... You challenge him because you have no fear of him, you have no clue of what God could do if he chose.. Free will is what he gave man, and evidently the angels, free will is the power to choose.. He allows every man to chase after the desires of his heart. Mans desire "to know" was greater than his desire to keep Gods command.. God wants to be "our desire" he wants us to choose him, but he will never force any of us to choose him... Because he is soverign, he must live by the laws that are bound to him, he must separate those who rejected him and those who trusted him by "faith".......
 
"He summoned the crowd again and said to them, 'Hear me, all of you, and understand. Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile.'

When he got home away from the crowd his disciples questioned him about the parable. He said to them, 'Are even you likewise without understanding? Do you not realize that everything that goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters not the heart but the stomach and passes out into the latrine? But what comes out of a person, that is what defiles. From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile.' " -- Mark 7:14-23

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 22, 2000).]
 
Oxygen,

In answer to your question about whether it is evil to allow the belly-gunner to die I would say that it would depend on what was in the heart of the pilot in that situation. That is between the pilot and God.

The real evil precipitated the war that put those poor people in the position of having to make such a choice. The real evil was in the hearts of those who caused the war due to a lack of love for all of their fellow human beings.
 
Christian-Just from a historical perspective, who do you think caused the war? Not that it makes any difference, I'm just curious, and it may even be appropriate because the subject of this thread is "Evil".

Did Germany really start the war, or could we point to the Treaty of Versailles, which plunged the nation into such despair that they put a man in power who promised to restore the defeated and humiliated people of Germany to their former glory?

Without going too far back, such as to the cause of WW1, was the Treaty of Versailles really a well-thought out punishment? The first form of the UN, the League of Nations, was formed and all were expected to abide by its rules, even Germany, who was not even allowed to be a part of it. The Versailles Treaty stripped Germany of every means to defend herself against possibly vengeful enemies, except for a mere 100,000 man army that amounted to little more that infantry troops. No air force, no tanks, no artillery, just guys with guns. Even submarines were banned, which left all but the surface sealanes wide open. Internally, the Weimar government was little more than a puppet government that essentially handed down the rulings of the League of Nations to the people of Germany. Runaway inflation made desperadoes out of these people, combined with the crushing humiliation of occupation. According to the Treaty of Versailles (which Germany was never even consulted on to see if she could realistically handle the demands) this condition was to last "permanently".

Their children were starving in the streets. Are they to blame for electing Hitler, a man who sought to put them back on their feet and feed them? Were they wrong to rebel against the League of Nations?

If the United Nations were to occupy your homeland and enforce rules via a puppet government that crippled your economy and livelihood, leaving you homeless, trying to explain to your starving child why there isn't anything to eat, would you elect a person who promised to get you out from under that yoke? He's not saying how, and he's not asking for your soul, he's only asking for your vote. In return, he promises you peace and prosperity. Would you vote for him?

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
 
Tab--

I agree that we're quite close on this one. Essentially, if we eliminate certain aspects we demand of our god-form, we can speak of logical necessity of universal process, and the toll it demands of organic life in general--and specifically humanity. Working within the context of any god-form forces moral concerns into the equation; if I accept this idea, then I can say that morality must transcend humanity, thus making Evil larger than its human considerations. Working within the specific Western traditions Russell is regarding, I can only conclude that the evil we see in our world is only a human assessment of evil, so that certain events or ideas society regards as evil might actually have a place in God's will. Certainly we might look to our guiding texts--in this case the Bible--except that there are events which offend our moral sensibilities in such a manner as to leave no other target for our outrage than God. In these times, then, we must choose whether to hold God accountable for our anger (yeah, right!), or to accept this evil as part of a larger solution, and possibly not evil at all.

Or something like that.

I wanted to comment on your excerpt as well. Know that you have my fondest wishes in this work. I always regard novels approaching such ideas as dangerous to the writer in two senses: A) the most successful novels of vision often miss even the most devoted audience; even the best readers love a sense of formula ... and B) at worst your vision will be accepted for its scope and horribly misinterpreted. May you laugh in the face of these spectres, and dance on the graves of all bad ideas that would obscure your tale.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
Hello Oxygen,

From a historical perspective we will probably never really know what was in the hearts of men during the days which precipitated WWI and WWII. God only knows.

For purposes of discussion without pointing fingers we could explore some of the possible evil causes if you'd like.

Let's do go back to the outbreak of WWI and the plot to assassinate heir presumptive to the Austrian emporer - Francis Ferdinand - and his wife Sophie. If we can believe what is recorded then let's look at what was possibly in the heart of Colonel Dragutin Dimitrijevic who was head of Serbia's military intelligence. This individual also went by the alias "Apis" and was head of the "secret" society called "Union or Death." If historical sources are correct then this individual most likely had a murderous heart. It was Apis who deceptively plotted the assassination and misused his power to convince others that the death of Ferdinand and Sophie would serve the Serb's cause. If this is true then I would now ask what was actually in Apis' heart? Thirst for power? Deceitfulness? Murder? If so, then I would say that this is an example of the type of evil which precipitated or contributed to the outbreak of WWI.

In turn then let's look at the Austro-Hungarian chief of general staff Franz Graf Conrad von Hotzendorf and foreign minister Leopold Graf von Berchtold. Feeling confident in the assurances of support from Germany, according to sources, together they saw the assassination as an opportunity to humiliate Serbia and to enhance Austria-Hungary's prestige in the Balkans. According to sources, these two devised a pre-meditated plan to present what they knew would be an unacceptable ultimatum to Serbia with the pre-meditated intention of declaring war, relying on Germany to deter possible Russian intervention. As it turns out, Serbia accepted all but two of the demands of the ultimatum and offered to submit the remaining two to international arbitration. Austria-Hungary promptly severed diplomatic relations, ordered mobilization and war was declared with the encouragement of the German Foreign Office (not William II). If this is true, I now ask what was in the hearts of these two Austro-Hungarians? Deceit? Thirst for power? Pride? Arrogance? Greed? Vengeance? Murder? If so, then I would say that this is another example of the type of evil which precipitated or caused WWI.

Let's jump ahead - with the Allies positioned for a final offensive an Armistice document was signed which brought WWI to an end.

As for the Treaty of Versailles, none of the defeated nations had any say in shaping the treaty and even the associated powers played only a minor role. The drafting of the treaty was dominated by the "Big Four" who wanted to make sure that Germany would never again pose a military threat to the rest of Europe, and the treaty contained a number of stipulations to guarantee this aim. Germany was shocked at the severity of the terms and protested the contradictions between the assurances made when the armistice was negotiated and the actual treaty. Accepting the "war guilt" clause and the reparation terms were especially hateful to them.

In the years after it was ratified the Treaty of Versailles was revised and altered, mostly in Germany's favor. Numerous concessions were made to Germany before the rise of Hitler and the Allies abandoned the guarantee provisions five years ahead of schedule. By 1938 only the territorial settlement articles remained.

However, Germany's WWI armistice delegation had been headed by a civilian, giving Germany's military generals - who were unwilling to admit to the hopelessness of Germany's military situation at the end of WWI - a way to save face. According to sources a "stab in the back" theme was trumped up to vindicate the honor of the German military. The "stab in the back" legend was soon picked up by German right-wing political agitators and Adolf Hitler eventually became the foremost of these political agitators, branding the leaders of of the Social Democrats as the "November criminals" and advocating militaristic and expansionist policies by which Germany could redeem its defeat in the war, gain "vengeance" upon its enemies and become the preeminent power in Europe. By the early part of 1939 the German dictator Adolf Hitler had become determined to invade and occupy Poland. He ordered the invasion and WWII began. If true, then what was actually in Hitler's heart? Malice? Pride? Envy? Arrogance? Vengeance? Deceit? Lust for power? Murder? If so, these are examples of the types of evil which precipitated or contributed to WWII.

Are Germans to blame for putting Hitler into power? Again, it would depend upon what it was that was in their individual hearts. I don't envy anyone who was a German citizen at the time. Many were probably manipulated by the master of deceit - a true antichrist. Only God knows for sure.

Many historians claim that the combination of a harsh treaty and subsequent lax enforcement of its provisions paved the way for the upsurge of German militarism in the 1930's. The huge German reparations and the war guilt clause fostered deep resentment and when Hitler remilitarized the Rhineland in 1936 (a violation of the Treaty), the Allies did nothing to stop him, thus encouraging future German aggression.

It sounds more like a case of "the devil made him do it" to me. What do you think?


[This message has been edited by Christian (edited January 23, 2000).]
 
Christian & Oxygen:

I'm fascinated by your tracing of evil through history. The kinds of questions you're trading are, in one sense, the important considerations of history. However, just to make this ethical quandary a bit more complex, I offer the following, from the opening pages of Clive Barker's "Weaveworld":

* * * * *

Nothing ever begins.
There is no first moment; no single word or place from which this or any other story springs.
The threads can always be traced back to some earlier tale, and to the tales that preceded that; though as the narrator's voice recedes the connections will seem to grow more tenuous, for each age will want the tale told as if it were of its own making.
Thus the pagan will be sanctified, the tragic becomes laughable; great lovers will stoop to sentiment, and demons dwindle to clockwork toys.
Nothing is fixed. In and out the shuttle goes, fact and fiction, mind and matter woven into patterns that may have only this in common: that hidden among them is a filigree that will with time become a world. (19)

* * * * *

Barker, Clive. "Weaveworld". New York: Poseidon, 1987.

* * * * *

Among the many blunders of the British Empire was the "Partition" of India. When the Empire collapsed, the idea was that, in order to settle religious rivalries within India, the British would draw an arbitrary line--all Muslims on one side, all Hindus on the other. A million people died in twenty-four hours in the resulting chaos. This was, I submit, an evil moment.

But when historians seek to place blame (usually, if not always, a bad idea), we find paradigm words like Protestant and Imperialist poised to receive our wrath. It is possible, if enough of the record exists, to piece together just who made what mistake where and when. If the record is detailed enough, we might get some sense of why the mistake occurred, but then we run into sympathetic speculations regarding that individual's state of mind. Even if we lump British Imperial disasters together: the Americas, South Africa, India, Ireland ... it is only possible to say that these things happened under the British watch ... the reasons why are subject to the infinite considerations of any one individual who played a pivotal or motivating role.

Unfortunately, my familiarity with German history is in context of tragedies associated with it: Malleus Maleficarum, the rise of the Reich, its contribution to the Cold War .... But I'm not familiar enough with German history beyond the 19th century. But I am enjoying your WW2 exchange.

As to the belly-gunner ... I would like to throw my own assessment in. I'm of the mind that one should believe in the war they are fighting. Assuming that all members of the bomber crew understand their place in the war, it seems a foregone conclusion that the belly gunner is going to die, but for the grace of God. Once those landing gear are disabled, the pilot MUST sacrifice the few for the greater good of the many. To the other, I understand that this logic will not reflect well as the ground rises to crush you ... but perhaps in that sense, one does not believe in the war enough to die for it. (Is said soldier, then, not philosophically prepared to kill for the sake of war?)

But I am prone to the larger context, so that I would excuse the pilot from any moral considerations whatsoever on the grounds that he shouldn't have had to be out flying this mission in the first place. But the chain of failures for which one might place blame quickly becomes so large as to render it worthless: thus, the poor pilot must "Carry on, carry on, 'cause nothing really matters."

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
A life without any absolutes..So our children grow up without any clear knowledge of right or wrong.. So there really isn't a right or a wrong.. So our children live in a world that becomes so confusing to them, lying isnt really lying, and cheating isnt really cheating, murder isnt really murdering.. Evil is only an illusion......Everything is good and acceptable....And so is the world we live in......Has there ever been a time in our world when there was peace? When lion laid down with lamb? None in the history of humanity......nor will it ever be... It is only becoming more degenerative, more kaotic becauuse there are no morals, no values, no acceptance of right or wrong....everything is just an illusion, and so is the New Age of enlightenment...people are "one" with the universe, with nature, with the gods that have been, and there is peace...there is love....?????????? Is there? or is just an illusion..... Deep within your own souls do you feel at rest, because you have the enlightenment that the "New Age" has given, the truths of your "intellect" has brought you real peace with people and your soul.... You mock at a God because he imposes morality, he has given us a guide to live our lives...You blame evil on Him because he created all of creation and you cant accept the fact that humanity chose to become part evil...you can't accept any responsibility of that evil, you rebel against God, against His Word, and against His Son..and so is the Age of Enlightenment when brother will be against brother, and children against parents, and parents against children.....and so is the Age of Enlightenment...When men will become lovers of themselves, they will make a pretense of religion denying its power..and so is the Age of Enlightenment.....I believed that lie and "thought" my "wisdom" greater than Gods and was deceived...I was not at peace......

...But understand this: there will be terifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather that lovers of God, as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power...always trying to learn but never able to reach a knowledge of the truth...2Tim1-7....

If you listen with your heart instead of your head you can hear the voice of truth.....
 
Micah,
Are you really listening with your heart or
listening to what you have been taught by other "brothers" and "sisters" of Jesus???

I understand you had some heavy bad experiences as you have shared in another thread...BUT, this does not mean that it is so in every case... You are sterotyping the new age movement... hardly fair..don't you think?

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Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
 
No, I am angered because I love God and His Son with all my heart.. They are not religion to me. They are not just a teaching or a philosophy they are real and alive. I am angered because of the deception that lies ahead for the world, I am angered at the souls that will cry forever, that are crying now because in their hearts they are tormented and in pain, I am angered because of the lies that the enemy has used to harden the hearts of Gods children and the pride of the flesh that refuses to let them reveal whats hidden deep within the soul..I am angered because a new world will come a "New Age" and "enlightenment" will be upon all people, the powers of light will be shown and all people will believe...and I am angered...because the prophecies will come to pass, and so many will be decieved...and so I cry for them, I am angered because the enemy has blinded the eyes and hearts of so many, and the spirit of Christ within my grieves for them............grieves for you........

-Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen-

[This message has been edited by Micah (edited January 23, 2000).]
 
Micah,
I did not mean to upset you..only to get you to think a bit.
I am aware that you believe everything that you wrote...so what I'd like to point out is that the souls you are grieving for..the ones in hell... God put them there. If your God was wanting to really show love...why would he send them to a place of torment?

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Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
 
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