My turn for genocide

[S.A.M.]

This is a curious argument one often hears these days i.e. one cannot do anything about the settler enterprise of Israel because it is a "fact" that cannot be undone. No more than say, giving America/Canada/Australia or New Zealand back to its natives.

ie an ongoing occupation is compared to one where the demographics have been adjusted by various means in favour of the settlers, ignoring that the Palestinians [all 10 million of them] are still there.

By this logic, what right does anyone have to stop any future genocides? Why can't everyone get their turn at it?

 

[GeoffP]

Asked another way: which genocides shall we roll back?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

By this logic, what right does anyone have to stop any future genocides? Why can't everyone get their turn at it?

Do you have someone in mind? Has someone earned the right to administer?

 

[S.A.M.]

How does one "earn" the right to administer genocide?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

How does one "earn" the right to administer genocide?

The thread title indicates that your turn is next. I assumed that you wanted to deliver and not receive. Did I get that mixed up? I don't think anyone earns the right to be a victim of genocide. As for earning the right to apply genocide I couldn't tell you if that's a possibility. If it's your turn then like joining in any game you would have earned the right to play at least.

 

[S.A.M.]

The thread title indicates that your turn is next. I assumed that you wanted to deliver and not receive. Did I get that mixed up? I don't think anyone earns the right to be a victim of genocide. As for earning the right to apply genocide I couldn't tell you if that's a possibility. If it's your turn then like joining in any game you would have earned the right to play at least.

Repeat: how does one earn the right to "apply" genocide?

What makes one act of genocide "legit" and another "illegit"?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Repeat: how does one earn the right to "apply" genocide?

What makes one act of genocide "legit" and another "illegit"?

Ah, I see. I guess one would need to be at war and subscribe to the Heinrich Himmler philosophy that in true war (paraphrasing) it is the duty of one race to completely annihilate the other. I guess it's legit if your side wins.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah, I see. I guess one would need to be at war and subscribe to the Heinrich Himmler philosophy that in true war (paraphrasing) it is the duty of one race to completely annihilate the other. I guess it's legit if your side wins.

So to qualify for the right to administer genocide, you have to be really good at it.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

So to qualify for the right to administer genocide, you have to be really good at it.

They say practice makes perfect. How would it qualify you for a right?

 

[Killjoy]

So to qualify for the right to administer genocide, you have to be really good at it.

Sometimes you need a bit of luck.

Recall that when Europeans first came to North America, they had to "play nice"with the people who had immigrated long before them and set up shop, because they were vastly outnumbered.

Fortunately for them, circumstances were such that just by moseying on over, the Euros brought along their most potent weapon in the subsequent conflict for control of the continent - disease !

A couple of centuries later, when the combination of the decimation of the entrenched population, and the arrival of vast numbers of "reinforcements", Whitey - now in the guise of the US of A - was able to declare that no less than Almighty Jehovah himself had decreed that the continent was ours to do with as we pleased, and if any "Godless savages" stood in the way, His will was that we blow the livin' piss out of them... ...which, of course, we proceeded to do.

 

[spidergoat]

Settlement, however heinous, is not genocide.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sometimes you need a bit of luck.

Mostly you just need to be a "good German" ie you choose not to know.

Settlement, however heinous, is not genocide.

 

[Bells]

How does one "earn" the right to administer genocide?

You can always ask the Sudanese. They have gotten quite good at it and at denying it. Hell, the Al-Bashir regime have become experts.

The results of the systematic interviews were shocking. Over sixty percent of the people interviewed had witnessed the killing of a family member. Two-thirds had witnessed the killing of a non-family member. Over eighty percent had witnessed destruction of a village. Two-thirds had witnessed aerial bombing of villages by the Sudanese government. And perhaps most chillingly, one third had heard racial epithets used while they or their relatives were being murdered or raped. Assailants often shouted, “Kill the slaves” and “We have orders to kill all the blacks.” Over 50,000 [2005 update: 250,000] black Africans have died in Darfur, and 1.5 [2005: 2.5] million people have been displaced from their homes. Over four [2005: eight] hundred villages have been burnt to the ground by Arab Janjaweed militias, supported by Sudanese government bombing.

Genocide is “the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such.” Was the killing “intentional”? Yes. Was it systematically organized by the al-Bashir regime using government armed Janjaweed militias, bombers, and helicopter gunships? Yes. Were the victims chosen because of their ethnic and racial identity? Yes. Fur, Masseleit, and Zaghawa black African villages were destroyed. Arab villages nearby were left untouched. The State Department report concludes, the “primary cleavage is ethnic: Arabs against Africans.” Is this the intentional destruction, in part, of ethnic and racial groups? Yes. This, in short, is genocide. The genocide continues.

The Al-Bashir regime in Sudan is a serial killer, a master of genocide and ethnic cleansing, having combined these crimes before in the Nuba mountains and in the southern Sudan, where over two million black Africans have died. In the south, the government wants to confiscate rich oil reserves under the lands of the Nuer, Dinka, Shilluk, Nuba, and other black African groups. In Darfur the regime wants to “Arabize” the territory and drive out black Africans in order to confiscate their grazing lands, water resources, and cattle herds.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/12waystodenygenocide.html

 

[S.A.M.]

So this is what makes genocide acceptable? Or haven't they killed enough people yet to be considered a legitimate demographic? Are they the only democracy in Africa yet? Or is more killing needed before the representation can be adjusted to become a majority?

 

[Tiassa]

This and that

Settlement, however heinous, is not genocide.

Indeed, that was my first question, the connection I was missing.

However, settlement is often a component of genocide, and can in some contexts be viewed as a slow genocide. If, in the end, the net effect is the same—the erasure of a culture and people—therein we find the connection.

It's still theoretic, but with the way things are going in Palestine, I wonder how long we can afford before we must necessarily put the question on the table.

• • •​

So this is what makes genocide acceptable? Or haven't they killed enough people yet to be considered a legitimate demographic? Are they the only democracy in Africa yet? Or is more killing needed before the representation can be adjusted to become a majority?

No, what makes genocide "acceptable" is politics. Calling genocide by its name means we're supposed to do something about it. All things considered, humanity hasn't done too well on that front in recent years.

 

[Bells]

So this is what makes genocide acceptable? Or haven't they killed enough people yet to be considered a legitimate demographic? Are they the only democracy in Africa yet?

What makes you assume it is acceptable?

But please, maybe you can answer review the situation in Sudan and give me your opinions as to what is happening in Sudan. How is it, how is it even remotely possible that what has happened in Sudan is not a genocide to some?

To some, the situation in Sudan is not a genocide. Because to some, in the world, what is happening in Sudan is not even deemed ethnic cleansing. Let me remind you of what has been done to the people of Sudan who do not practice a certain religion or speak a certain language:

"Over sixty percent of the people interviewed had witnessed the killing of a family member. Two-thirds had witnessed the killing of a non-family member. Over eighty percent had witnessed destruction of a village. Two-thirds had witnessed aerial bombing of villages by the Sudanese government. And perhaps most chillingly, one third had heard racial epithets used while they or their relatives were being murdered or raped. Assailants often shouted, “Kill the slaves” and “We have orders to kill all the blacks.” Over 50,000 [2005 update: 250,000] black Africans have died in Darfur, and 1.5 [2005: 2.5] million people have been displaced from their homes. Over four [2005: eight] hundred villages have been burnt to the ground by Arab Janjaweed militias, supported by Sudanese government bombing.

--------------------------------------------

The Al-Bashir regime in Sudan is a serial killer, a master of genocide and ethnic cleansing, having combined these crimes before in the Nuba mountains and in the southern Sudan, where over two million black Africans have died. In the south, the government wants to confiscate rich oil reserves under the lands of the Nuer, Dinka, Shilluk, Nuba, and other black African groups. In Darfur the regime wants to “Arabize” the territory and drive out black Africans in order to confiscate their grazing lands, water resources, and cattle herds."​

Because to some, that ^^ just doesn't cut it when it comes to genocide. In fact, to some, they'll stand by the man in charge and indicted as the perpetrator of what everyone else knows to be a genocide.

Arab leaders concluded their annual summit on Monday with a strong message of support for Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir who faces an arrest warrant from the International Criminal Court over Darfur and agreed to hold their next year’s gathering in Libya.

"We stress our solidarity with Sudan and our rejection of the ICC decision against President Omar al-Bashir," Arab League chief Amr Mussa said, reading the Doha declaration.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/03/30/69538.html

So please, tell me. What constitutes a genocide? Haven't they killed enough people to qualify as a genocide? Would it be a genocide in Sudan if the perpetrators were not who they were, but white or Jewish? Is that how it works now days? It's only a genocide if the other side is white? You bay for blood at the plight of the Palestinians, and quite rightly. But the silence over Sudan is deafening. Why?

 

[S.A.M.]

Thats what my question is, what makes a legitimate genocide?

See OP for question: " one cannot do anything about the settler enterprise of Israel because it is a "fact" that cannot be undone. No more than say, giving America/Canada/Australia or New Zealand back to its natives."

Does anyone say the same about Sudan? Why or why not?

 

[Bells]

Thats what my question is, what makes a legitimate genocide?

See OP for question: " one cannot do anything about the settler enterprise of Israel because it is a "fact" that cannot be undone. No more than say, giving America/Canada/Australia or New Zealand back to its natives."

Does anyone say the same about Sudan? Why or why not?

It can never be undone because it is impossible to bring people back from the dead.

What can be done is to stop it from happening. Not support the perpetrators, regardless of who the perpetrators are. Nor should the perpetrators be armed further to aid them in committing further atrocities.

Is the situation in Sudan a genocide? Does it count as ethnic cleansing as it does with the Palestinians and as it did in Rwanda? Most definitely.

The question that you should ask is why are the Governments who commit such gross acts of human rights abuses supported by others? How can they be supported? How can anyone stand by and support a person who knowingly and willingly commits genocide and ethnic cleansing?

The irony of the Arab's leader's support of Al-Bashir is that in their statement of solidarity, they also voiced their universal support for the plight of the Palestinian people. I guess the non-Muslims of Sudan just do not warrant the same courtesy. After all, non-Muslim Sudanese are just "blacks" or "slaves" to those who are purging them from their lands as I type. It is just as ironic when Western Governments support Israel's purges into Palestinian areas.

 

[S.A.M.]

So what makes a genocide legit?

So far we have

1. being really good at it
2. a bit of luck
3. political acceptance

 

[Meursalt]

All three of which your mob lacks, SAM.

Your thread title was probably the most telling point you've made.

your turn.
Not change.