My son at 14 wants to be a marine and kill Osamas in the desert

nietzschefan said:
He was not a pacifist, but if victory(or strategic aims) can be achieved without battle it is always the better course.

True, at the soldier level all he wanted was simple obedience (including to take prisoners rather than kill mercilessly). He killed the Emperors concubines to prove this point when they disobeyed orders during a demonstration on discipline.

So as others have already said, if this 14 year old keeps with his current attitude he will be in Leavenworth.
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Or Fort Benning. Or he may even work his way up to a four star general, or maybe he'll end up working for Mutual Trust and be home by five. Soldiers obey because it saves lives, not because they're mindless and if they're Seals, Delta or Ranger they take more initiative than you average infantry grunt and even they have to use wisdom and judgement. Again this is about what a father tells his child who informs him of a desire to be a soldier when papa really is looking to have a doctor in the family. With his current attitude I think he'll head straight for special forces.
 
Mrs.Lucysnow said:
Or Fort Benning. Or he may even work his way up to a four star general, or maybe he'll end up working for Mutual Trust and be home by five. Soldiers obey because it saves lives, not because they're mindless and if they're Seals, Delta or Ranger they take more initiative than you average infantry grunt and even they have to use wisdom and judgement. Again this is about what a father tells his child who informs him of a desire to be a soldier when papa really is looking to have a doctor in the family. With his current attitude I think he'll head straight for special forces.
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this is not true. all soldiers do not obey to save lives (btw, soldiers are suppose to follow orders within heirarchy, not decide for themselves), they are all different with different values and had different motivations for joing militaries. some for college money, some because they like the idea of getting off on killing, some because they like the structural life of the military, some because they aren't qualified to do much else, some for the security of a paycheck etc.

common sense advice has already been given and that is to educate the child on what military life as well as letting them know the horrors of war as well. as far as what the values the parent wants them to learn, that is up to them. some parents may encourage the idea of flag-waving and killing the enemy or hoorah stuff while others would take a more balanced approach. it all depends on the parent and some kids may be ignorant of what going to the front lines entails. if they still want to be a soldier when they get of age, that's their decision as well as the reasons for it, the reasons may or may not be stupid or ethical or unethical.
 
Yes I do.

14 leaves many years until "fighting age".

Lots can change as you yourself just said, Lucy. About the person.

I have taken his "Killing ARABS" comment at face value. A ludicrous goal even if it WAS a U.S military goal. Pretty broad paintbrush. A failed doctrine at any level in the military. Even a SEAL sniper who job truly is only to waste people. One, "ARABS" are not even the enemy (even as explained by the U.S government), it's "Terrorists". Two, the goal should be to defeat enemies of the United States. Some Arabs could be friends, and are currently.

Also: How well do you think your country will be doing if it's still in the business of "Killing Arabs"(if that is at all a modus operendi of U.S forces)? Doubt it could afford the Gas.
 
S.A.M. said:
Enrol him for the student volunteer program for veterans


http://www.volunteer.va.gov/StudentProgram.asp
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Not bad but I think even better would be meeting the people he sees as the enemy. Working with disabled vets might put him off the idea but it might also fill him with rage.
The peace corps has connections in Morocco not sure how it works but it may be worth a look. http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm?shell=learn.wherepc.northafr&cntry=morocco

Getting to know other cultures is the best defense against bigotry

After looking more it seems like 18 is the starting age but if you contact them I am sure they will recommend some useful programs to volunteer for..
 
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i remember reading this case of a soldier who was told to fire on civilians and he saw a lot of unethical shit that soldiers were ordered to do or they did on their own. this disillusioned him because he thought or assumed that the u.s. military was ethical or the 'good guys'. it is supposed to be but there are fucked up people, unethical people, even in upper echelons as well as deceit everywhere. well, he was very disappointed to say the least but his story as well as others exposed a lot of stuff and these issues tend to have the effect of making positive changes or at least a bit more accountability. besides the fact, there are people who just hate those of another country or culture. they really think that everyone else should be oppressed or be wasted. there are soldiers as well as higher ranking who feel or think this way but usually it's only lower-ranking soldiers who are more open about these types of unethical attitudes.

so it's important to let anyone know who is thinking of joining the military to really consider why they are doing that and to realize if they believe, for instance, all arabs are the enemy etc. it's not true.
 
birch said:
this is not true. all soldiers do not obey to save lives (btw, soldiers are suppose to follow orders within heirarchy, not decide for themselves), they are all different with different values and had different motivations for joing militaries. some for college money, some because they like the idea of getting off on killing, some because they like the structural life of the military, some because they aren't qualified to do much else, some for the security of a paycheck etc.
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Actually that's exactly why they are taught to follow orders, because it is critical in combat. Rank and file? Of course its hierarchal, there's no other way to efficiently run such an organization. A soldier has to make a whole lot of decisions on the ground what they do not decide is whether they should or should not engage in war. When you are running a drone for example you only make a kill if you are ordered at your own discretion if they believe someone is armed, if they are told not to take a shot unless given the order then that's what they do. There are all sorts of decisions that one has to make during combat simply because there isn't enough time to take or be given orders.

Going into the military because one wants to go to college is a bad idea and says a lot about ones society. In Europe education is affordable or without major fees so those who join the military do so because that's exactly what they want to do. I know one Scotsman who became a commando, he joined at 16. He was also an incredible illustrator and could have easily have gone into art school but decided on the military instead and has never regretted his decision. Whenever I hear the story of Manning and how much he hated the military I think how unfortunate it was that he even bothered to join. Why did he join? Because he was looking for a way to pay for university. Risking ones life just to get an education is not the kind of people you should want in the military, you should want men and women who really want to be there not because its a stepping stone for the poor.
 
nietzschefan said:
Yes I do.

14 leaves many years until "fighting age".

Lots can change as you yourself just said, Lucy. About the person.

I have taken his "Killing ARABS" comment at face value. A ludicrous goal even if it WAS a U.S military goal. Pretty broad paintbrush. A failed doctrine at any level in the military. Even a SEAL sniper who job truly is only to waste people. One, "ARABS" are not even the enemy (even as explained by the U.S government), it's "Terrorists". Two, the goal should be to defeat enemies of the United States. Some Arabs could be friends, and are currently.

Also: How well do you think your country will be doing if it's still in the business of "Killing Arabs"(if that is at all a modus operendi of U.S forces)? Doubt it could afford the Gas.
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Jmpet didn't say his son wanted to kill 'arabs', he said his son wanted to kill 'osamas' (as in Osama bin laden) ie. terrorists. If you ask me there's nothing wrong with killing terrorists who kill muslim and non-muslims alike, they're just the right target.
 
Said both actually and both are fairly stupid. There might even be a few unfortunates with the name "Osama" in the U.S.
 
nietzschefan said:
Said both actually and both are fairly stupid. There might even be a few unfortunates with the name "Osama" in the U.S.
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I suspect any who have that legal name have either changed it or are now going by their middle name...:fright:

When you are 14, moral ambiguity does not come easy, and I'm not sure how to introduce the concept that not everything's black and white.

I once talked to a young woman who said she "wanted to die for her country," and I said that was a bad reason to go into the military...because with that attitude she'd take foolish risks and possibly put the people around her in jeopardy...I don't think she got it...
She was really looking for a personally acceptable way to off herself...:(

Anyway...if he goes to war with this attitude intact...he could take stupid risks.

Meh, four years is a long time when you're a teenager though.

How does one introduce the idea of moral ambiguity?
 
No doubt. Sure he might change his attitude a bit and become a fine solder. Not with that attitude, I argue.
 
nietzschefan said:
No doubt. Sure he might change his attitude a bit and become a fine solder. Not with that attitude, I argue.
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Do you know any 14 year olds who don't have an attitude? Hell I thought bravado was de rigueur at least through the age of 16. I think you're take the gung ho attitude of a young boy waay too seriously. Don't any of you old geezer's remember what it was like to be a 14 year old boy? Next you'll claim a 14 year olds fascination with naked women means he'll turn into a future rapist.

Meanwhile I bet he would cry if he saw someone wring the neck of a bunny rabbit. LOL!
 
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Mrs.Lucysnow said:
Do you know any 14 year olds who don't have an attitude? Hell I thought bravado was de rigueur at least through the age of 16.
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i see
you tout your socioeconomic class as representing the whole of society. what did you and your ilk do in hs? throw spitballs at the nerds in the debate team? get pregnant by the mindless jocks and are now welfare queens?

/grossed out
 
Orleander said:
my son sure didn't. And my nephews don't. A 14 yr old should know teh value of a life and it bothers me that this one doesn't seem to.
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Oh I bet they're so special. Probably good candidates as future Dr. Heiters :rolleyes:

Soldiers tend to know the value of life better than most since they are the ones who put theirs on the line, watch as other's lose their own.
 
Mrs.Lucysnow said:
Oh I bet they're so special. :rolleyes:

Soldiers tend to know the value of life better than most since they are the ones who put theirs on the line, watch as other's lose their own.
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They aren't special. They are average kids raised to value a life. nd they certainly don't call other 'Osamas'
Do your kids do that?

And I don't think soldiers know the value of a life more than anyone else. They are average peopel doing a tough job. They aren't super heroes
 
Orleander said:
They aren't special. They are average kids raised to value a life. nd they certainly don't call other 'Osamas'
Do your kids do that?

And I don't think soldiers know the value of a life more than anyone else. They are average peopel doing a tough job. They aren't super heroes
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Orleander you seem to take the thoughts of a 14 year old with an enthusiasm for the armed forces as something strange when its not, I know too many young boys who are fascinated by the idea of battle and there isn't anything unusual about that. Do you take kids who want to be firemen as people who love fire? Or do you see them as seeing it as a form of masculine heroism?

And yes soldiers do value life more than the average american who never risks their lives and never see the destruction of war first hand, this is why no matter what they think they are doing when they go in they rarely leave having cavalier feelings about those they are at war with.
 
Mrs.Lucysnow said:
Orleander you seem to take the thoughts of a 14 year old with an enthusiasm for the armed forces as something special when its not, I know too many young boys who are fascinated by the idea of battle and there isn't anything unusual about that. Do you take kids who want to be firemen as people who love fire? Or do you see them as seeing it as a form of masculine heroism?

And yes soldiers do value life more than the average american who never risks their lives and never see the destruction of war first hand, this is why no matter what they think they are doing when they go in they rarely leave having cavalier feelings about those they are at war with.
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The kid isn't saying he wants to protect people. He wants to kill 'Osamas'. That is NOTHING like being a fireman who puts out fires. :rolleyes: How do you know all these young boys? Live with any? Raise any?

And no, soldiers don't value life more than others. Just ask a parent if they value thier children's life more than a soldier values the lives of others. My father and my brother both came back with more of a 'shit happens' attitude rather that 'all life is precious'.

Lord love a duck, do you have any real life experience with any of this?
 
Orleander said:
The kid isn't saying he wants to protect people. He wants to kill 'Osamas'. That is NOTHING like being a fireman who puts out fires. :rolleyes: How do you know all these young boys? Live with any? Raise any?

And no, soldiers don't value life more than others. Just ask a parent if they value thier children's life more than a soldier values the lives of others. My father and my brother both came back with more of a 'shit happens' attitude rather that 'all life is precious'.

Lord love a duck, do you have any real life experience with any of this?
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'Osamas'? Terrorists? Isn't that the goal after all? If it were WW2 he would have been going on about getting those 'jerrys' or 'Fritz' all terms for germans at the time. If he referred to 'rag heads' then I'm sure his father would correct him. But 'osamas? Someone who personifies Al Qaeda operatives? Give me a break.

I have more experience with it than you realize. Loving ones children and family is not the same as understanding the immediacy of death in theater. Its not the same. 'Shit happens'? In battle it surely does but I bet they never sat down with you and told you of what they were feeling in the heat of things, or what its like watching their friends die. Unless of course you believe your brother and father to be completely cold blooded? Could be, after all, most professions attract a small amount of psychopaths, I'm sure you know them better than anyone.
 
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