Muslim cultural center near 9/11 site causes distress

Well I don't agree with that either. But your heart is still american I'm sure

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

what the fuck are you talking about? I never said anything about SAM grieving. did you read the post or did youy just look for a word to rant about? I was admonishing SAM not supporting her.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

??? No nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Simple enough to refute. Lets see an official expression of sorrow/sympathy/grief/remorse/apology for any of the victims of American hubris. Start wherever you like.

 

Do you really expect me to treat other than random bullshit? rather than letting your self be consumed by hate why don't you try and focus on more positive things.

 

The Brits don't really have a first amendment you know. If you say something nasty in Britain about someone, even if it is TRUE, you can go to jail or be sued. They do not protect either speech or religious liberty to the same extent we do. Still, if you prefer their system, there are flights daily, and a vibrant expat community in London, which you can harass legally all you like if they say or do anything you disagree with.

As for your last sentence, I already concede that point, though obviously we crossed messages. That you are right on the increasingly overweening power of the LPC does not make you right about denying Muslims a right that Jews, Christians and Buddhista have all be granted in the same area of the city, without controversy.

If we can kick Muslims out of southern Manhattan, we can we can kick anyone, any race, any religion, any creed out of southern Manhattan based on not liking how they worship or what they might say (not even, in this case, what they have "actually" said, just what we fear they may say). All it takes is a catalyst that generates a vocal minority who opposes them. Right now, that is just the Muslims, but it was not that long ago that NYC was the HQ of a very robust pro-Nazi anti-Jewish movement (the German American Bund filled Madison Square Garden at a pro-Nazi rally in 1939), so these things vary over time.

Will Muslims every be allowed to build in southern Manhattan? I hope so even if you do not, but I am not terribly invested in that. My bigger concern is the bad precedent this sets for the next disfavored group.

Another quote that is relevant, with an update in brackets:

 

Ironically, that is my suggestion to those protesting the cultural site.

Just don't tell me about how sensitive and emotional Americans are over the name of a cultural site while they are killing defenseless and poor people and calling it Operation Enduring Freedom.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/17/AR2010051703824.html

 

Well then I mis-read your post I apologize.

 

Me knows that all too well. That wasn't my point, the Landmark Commission is able to make these decisions and it doesn't clash with the constitution. As a matter of fact asking them to move it elsewhere, something they do not have to do legally, is more of a plea from the family members and that's not unconstitutional either. As a matter of fact considering they can build almost anywhere in the city I don't know where you get the idea that the suggestion that they do is unconstitutional.

Where they build in the future is besides the point. Again what is so important about building on that exact point I don't know. The thing is though that 9/11 still holds a prominent spot in everyone's memory. Timing of course is everything and they simply chose the wrong time.

 

The LPC is a menace. You cannot, CANNOT buy a building in Manhattan and be assured that you will not lose moeny on ioty, because they can change the rules on you (even their own rules) on a moment's notice. As I said, never build anything too interesting in Manhattan, as it might become a landmark. If what you make is too nice, the LPC will get so excited that they will be compelled to fuck you in the ass without lubrication.

More than one building owner has been stuck spending millions on unwanted historical renovations on an old building in which they could not profitably rent space because no one prefers to live or run a business in an old building. Meanwhile, each year more buildings become landmarks...but you know what does not happen? Manhattan does not get that much bigger, so that means there is less and less space on which new buildings can be constructed. Worse, the prime spaces are typically occupied by landmark buildings, because they were prime spaces for a long time, and so attracted builders in days gone by too. Less and less space for new construction, and the locations get worse and worse.

Free markets may not preserve history, but they do efficiently maximize community welfare, in a way that the LPC is positively hostile to.

Also, I should not have said your heart (or any piece of it) was unamerican. I am sure you are American, you are just an American who is, in my opinion, surprisingly unconcerned about fairness or human rights.

 

Well that's an entire different thread, about whether the LPC is a menace or provides a necessary service. I like the idea of preservation so you won't hear me complaining about it but i am sure there are a lot of issues around what is allowed and the cost to the owners.

I know you didn't relaly mean the thing about being 'unamerican'. Technically I am not but that's by choice. I was raised in NY for much of my life, my family home is there, most of my belongings are still there and my mother is a US citizen and continues to live there.

You have no grounds to say I am unconcerned with fairness and human rights. This is not a case that interferes with either its simply HYSTERIA on the part of those who are in favor of the center. Its not as if they can't build anywhere else and its not as if Muslims in NY have a problem finding mosques to pray in.:shrug:

After all no one was bothered by this:

September 11, 2002: Day of Unity and Prayer

Other Islamic 9/11 Observances:

Muslim Community Memorial at Ground Zero
sponsored by the Council on American-Islamic Relations, New York Chapter
Wednesday, September 11, 2002 -- 9 a.m. to 10 a.m.
Great Lawn of Battery Park, 5 blocks south of Ground Zero (across from 17 State St.)
Contact: (212) 870-2002 or (516) 729-8754

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa090902a.htm

 

Only if their decision us entirely unrelated to the controversy. They can do it if their review is entirely content neutral, but they can't do it simply to make the Muslims move. The LPC is not the "insult police" of the city, and cannot make you change your plans because they don't like what you may say. They can make you change your plans if they legitimately think your plans conflict with the need to preserve a legitimate landmark, but they'd have to make the same exact determination if a church was being built on the site. They can't use "special rules" or apply different standards for Muslims...and when they get sued (and they will) the Cordoba Group will be entitled to "discovery", which means the LPC and city will need to turn over every letter, memo, e-mail, meeting notes, and any other scrap of paper or recording that exists that has anything to do with this decision, and destroying that stuff would "tampering with evidence" and is not legal.

So if there is an e-mail or tweet or IM in which an LPC commissioner says "I find it insulting that they would build a mosque there", or e-mails from the families of 9/11 victims to the Commissioner imploring them to find the building is a landmark to prevent Muslims from gaining a foothold in lower Manhattan, those will be taken as evidence of the "true intent" behind the decision to declare the building a landmark. And if the factfinder determines that that was the real reason for the action, and not a legitimate aesthetic determination, the PLC will lose and likely the city will be forced to pay a lot of money to the Cordoba Group.

And behold the wonder that is the Burlington Coat Factory building:

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Better that the crumbling structure sit vacant and continue to decay than that the land be used.

That is true, merely asking them to move is not unconstitutional, but they also lobbied the mayor, who wisely decided that it would be unconstitutional for him to try to block the mosque (see the quote above).

That is remarkably, shockingly even, naive (unless you are feigning naivete to cover something less innocuous). That is, in effect, like saying, "Hey blacks can live anywhere, so if my neighbors and I let them know that they are not welcome here in our neighborhood, and we contact city officials and try to convince our elected officials and city landmark commission into harassing blacks into moving, no one should have a problem with that." In this case, of course, it's even worse that that, because, in practice, it's not "they can move anywhere." In actuality, it seems like maybe mosques can only be built in Manhattan when they are in or near Harlem, judging form the fact that ALL THE ACTUAL MOSQUES IN MANHATTAN ARE IN OR NEAR HARLEM so far as I can tell from Google Maps and other sources.

If we (through social pressure or otherwise) relocated all the gynecologists north of 96th Street, do you not think the women of Manhattan would cry foul and feel like they were being discriminated against?

And when does the ban on Muslims in southern Manhattan end?

 

There is no banning of mosques in southern manhattan or anywhere else. There is a call to not have a mosque on that specific location that's all! Like I added to the post when Muslims called for an inter-faith session to commemorate the 9/11 victims no one made a stink about it. Nor has anyone made a stink about a mosque anywhere else in NYC. I think this plea summed it all up quite well:



Do you feel comfortable with the following sentiments or is it all just bigotry:

"Imam Rauf is a Muslim cleric who, immediately after 9/11, blamed the attacks on U.S. treatment of Muslims, asserting that Osama Bin Ladin was 'made in the U.S.A,'" said Debra Burlingame, co-founder of 9/11 FSSA, whose brother was the pilot of the American Airlines flight which was hijacked and crashed into the Pentagon. "We do not accept the Cordoba organization's view that we need Imam Rauf to lecture us about religious tolerance in a city still dealing with the consequences of the attack that he claims we brought on ourselves."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2520020/posts

 

Well, a sense of fairness is like a sense of humor. Everyone thinks they have a sense of humor, and no one recognizes when theirs is stunted.

 

Nor yours mate. You have yet to prove that there is an effort to curtail mosques anywhere else but there. Until you do then your claim of bigotry and anti-constitutional standing is just a lot of hot air.

Go on. I challenge you to show evidence that there is an effort to stop the building of mosques anywhere in NY except that site. Or that there is an effort to stop muslims from practicing their faith.

 

Ah: but that's the trick, isn't it? This Rauf guy doesn't convince me in the slightest that he's anything but a reactionary right-winger.

...ok, but it's more complex than just 9/11. This Rauf guy's philosophy goes right against the core of social justice and equality.

It's not just 9/11 denial.

What multi-faith cultural centre?

What multi-faith cultural centre? You're asking them to invest in fascists (Rauf), here.

Ex-fucking-scuse me? What the hell did you just say?

Whoa, whoa, whoa: easy there. Who's trying to kick Muslims out of anywhere? There's already a couple of mosques there. The question is whether they're allowed to build a new one on the ashes of Ground Zero, not whether they should be kicked out of an existing mosque.

 

That's just not true. We are a permissive society in the UK, and thus, one is free to say anything unless it's specifically banned under legislation; the same type of slander of libel legislation you have in the USA, btw. I can't recall any cases of people going to jail for speaking the truth, unless they were disclosing secrets.

We have some additional laws on hate speech wrt the USA, and do no allow racists, bigots, and homophobes to spread lies and incite violence against minorities. This protects religious groups too.

But then, despite laws about freedom of speech, the USA had McCarthyism, and despite the constitution guaranteeing various freedoms of religion, here we have this thread, with people somehow thinking a Mosque 2 blocks away from the old site of the twin towers is somehow significant. It isn't, it just exposes the bigoted underbelly of some posters here.

 

Yeah but its still not a 'first amendment' as in having a 'constitution. I don't think he meant that there is no protection in favor of free speech...or I might be wrong.

 

Being a 'permissive society' everything is allowed, unless banned. We don't therefore need our rights declaring, after all, who is bestowing these rights upon us? Nobody, we are free men.

 

Well in the States ones freedoms are outlined by the constitution. Its same same but different. Its like an extension to the masses of the magna carta libertatum.