Ms Rowling and her Harry Potter books: antisemitic?

[parmalee]

Moderator note: This thread was split from the following thread, because it is on an adjacent, but different, topic.

Ms Rowling: insightful critic of gender policy or myopic [insult]

There you go. Have at it. I will start with a middle position, along the Noam Chomsky lines of: we should be able to have a calm chat about these matters, and no one should have their free speech rights constrained as we find our way on such complex matters of human identity. Nor should...

www.sciforums.com

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Horse’s mouth.
Some have said Rowling's Potter books show Rowling is racist.
Any old negative tag to a name helps with the cancelling of Rowling it seems.

Actually, what many have said, going back some 20-odd years now (though not within this thread), is that both the Harry Potter books and films are filled with racist tropes. Do you honestly not see anything problematic about the goblin bankers?

Jon Stewart Goes Off on ‘Anti-Semitic’ Caricature of Gringotts Bank Goblins in 'Harry Potter' Franchise

Jon Stewart called out J.K. Rowling for her anti-Semitic portrayal of Jews in the form of the goblins in the Harry Potter franchise.

www.thewrap.com

 

[foghorn]

Actually, what many have said, going back some 20-odd years now (though not within this thread), is that both the Harry Potter books and films are filled with racist tropes. Do you honestly not see anything problematic about the goblin bankers?

The Times of Israel:

Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling said on Wednesday that it was time for non-Jews to start standing up to anti-Semitism.
In a series of tweets, Rowling expressed solidarity with British Jews, rejecting semantic arguments of anti-Semites.
“Most UK Jews in my timeline are currently having to field this kind of crap, so perhaps some of us non-Jews should start shouldering the burden,” she wrote in response to a tweet saying, “Because Judaism is a religion and not a race.”
Rowling continued, saying,
“Antisemites thinks this is a clever argument, so tell us, do: were atheist Jews exempted from wearing the yellow star?”…..


In a series of tweets, Rowling expressed solidarity with British Jews, rejecting semantic arguments of anti-Semites.
“Most UK Jews in my timeline are currently having to field this kind of crap, so perhaps some of us non-Jews should start shouldering the burden,” she wrote in response to a tweet saying, “Because Judaism is a religion and not a race.”
Rowling continued, saying, “Antisemites thinks this is a clever argument, so tell us, do: were atheist Jews exempted from wearing the yellow star?”
Most UK Jews in my timeline are currently having to field this kind of crap, so perhaps some of us non-Jews should start shouldering the burden. Antisemites thinks this is a clever argument, so tell us, do: were atheist Jews exempted from wearing the yellow star? #antisemitism pic.twitter.com/H5xLLXTdQO

— J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) April 18, 2018
The best-selling author, who has over 14 million followers on Twitter, said she was “so sorry” to hear examples of anti-Semitism and replied to a Jewish mother who wrote that her children experience it at school, “Know that you aren’t alone and that a lot of us stand with you.”
I'm so sorry to hear this. Know that you aren't alone and that a lot of us stand with you xx
— J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) April 18, 2018
She rejected all defenses of anti-Semitism, saying the response to anti-Jewish sentiment had to be the same as against any other racism or bigotry.

— J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) April 18, 2018
“Split hairs. Debate etymology. Gloss over the abuse of your fellow citizens by attacking the actions of another country’s government,” she tweeted. "Would your response to any other form of racism or bigotry be to squirm, deflect or justify?” ….

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jk-rowling-tells-victims-of-anti-semitism-you-arent-alone/

*********************
Jon Stewart

Jon Stewart denies accusing JK Rowling of anti-Semitism

"So let me just say this super-clearly, as clearly as I can, 'Hello, my name is Jon Stewart. I do not think JK Rowling is anti-Semitic. I do not think the Harry Potter movies are anti-Semitic."

"I cannot stress this enough - I am not accusing JK Rowling of being anti-Semitic. She need not answer to any of it. I don't want the Harry Potter movies censored in any way. It was a light-hearted conversation."

"I really love the Harry Potter movies, probably too much for a gentleman of my considerable age."

Jon Stewart denies accusing JK Rowling of anti-Semitism

The US chat-show host denies accusing the Harry Potter author of anti-Semitism in comments on a podcast.

www.bbc.co.uk

The actors Daniel Radcliffe and Helena Bonham Carter are Jewish.

 

[billvon]

Actually, what many have said, going back some 20-odd years now (though not within this thread), is that both the Harry Potter books and films are filled with racist tropes. Do you honestly not see anything problematic about the goblin bankers?

Because they are anti-Semitic? Goblins have been around for over 600 years, and have featured prominently in literature and media from Tolkien, Gygax, Pratchett, the Spider-Man series, Robinson and several others. I think that's the basis of their inclusion in Harry Potter, rather than any creation in order to be an anti-Semitic trope.

(I mean, I guess every single one of those authors/sources could also be anti-Semitic - but it's unlikely IMO.)

 

[James R]

Do you honestly not see anything problematic about the goblin bankers?

Please explain what you see as the problematic aspect of that.

Does JKR identify goblins with Jews in the Harry Potter books? Are goblins Jewish?

Is JKR just being racist against goblins?

Is it racist to say a goblin can be a banker?

What's the problem, parmalee? Explain.

 

[Sarkus]

Because they are anti-Semitic? Goblins have been around for over 600 years, and have featured prominently in literature and media from Tolkien, Gygax, Pratchett, the Spider-Man series, Robinson and several others. I think that's the basis of their inclusion in Harry Potter, rather than any creation in order to be an anti-Semitic trope.

The issue is not the inclusion of goblins per se, not even that they are in line with Western cultural norms in terms of description (Western culture is littered with anti-Semitic tropes that have become accepted and, mostly, divorced from the antisemitism for anyone not studying history of art etc. just look at witches, gargoyles, etc), but it's with having them in charge of the bank, and being almost exclusively about the money / finance.
Did Tolkien or Gygax have the race being focused on finance?
Now, whether this is JKR being deliberately antisemitic or just lazy enough in her characterisations to not care that it might be considered as such, I think I'd plump for the latter.

[And, fwiw, I hadn't even considered goblins being based on Jews until I saw the HP films. My internal image of a goblin is somewhat less... specific]

You could look at how wonderfully she characterises all the other minorities: I mean there's the only Asian character, who she called Cho Chang. The only black adult who she called Shacklebolt. The Irish pupil Seamus Finnegan, who always tried to blow things up and turn water into alcohol.

I think what I'm saying is that I don't think Rowling is racist, antisemitic etc. No more so than Joe Public, at least. She's just lazy with regard characterisation, and happy to rely on stereotypes, that may or may not have arisen due to racism in the past. Racism, as I understand it, would require the deliberate use of stereotypes to damage, harm, discriminate. And I don't think she did that. I don't think she used Goblins, whose description in the West evolved from antisemitism, being in charge of banks because she wants to insult, or discriminate, but because, well, she's lazy.
I mean, it's not as if she's using the stereotype to shine a light on the fact that it's a stereotype, and to say anything profound about it. There's no mesaage there. Just... laziness. I mean, it's easier to tap into the cultural acceptance of the goblin than to redesign the creature from scratch, right?
But, then... why have them in charge of the bank? If not to reinforce that she really did mean people to lean into the characterisation as Jewish?

So when does perpetuating a description (if that's what she's doing) that has been built on a history of racism, itself become racism, rather than just laziness?

Meh. A tangled mess.
Just my thoughts on her writing.

 

[ольга]

The issue is not the inclusion of goblins per se, not even that they are in line with Western cultural norms in terms of description (Western culture is littered with anti-Semitic tropes that have become accepted and, mostly, divorced from the antisemitism for anyone not studying history of art etc. just look at witches, gargoyles, etc), but it's with having them in charge of the bank, and being almost exclusively about the money / finance.
Did Tolkien or Gygax have the race being focused on finance?
Now, whether this is JKR being deliberately antisemitic or just lazy enough in her characterisations to not care that it might be considered as such, I think I'd plump for the latter.

[And, fwiw, I hadn't even considered goblins being based on Jews until I saw the HP films. My internal image of a goblin is somewhat less... specific]

You could look at how wonderfully she characterises all the other minorities: I mean there's the only Asian character, who she called Cho Chang. The only black adult who she called Shacklebolt. The Irish pupil Seamus Finnegan, who always tried to blow things up and turn water into alcohol.

I think what I'm saying is that I don't think Rowling is racist, antisemitic etc. No more so than Joe Public, at least. She's just lazy with regard characterisation, and happy to rely on stereotypes, that may or may not have arisen due to racism in the past. Racism, as I understand it, would require the deliberate use of stereotypes to damage, harm, discriminate. And I don't think she did that. I don't think she used Goblins, whose description in the West evolved from antisemitism, being in charge of banks because she wants to insult, or discriminate, but because, well, she's lazy.
I mean, it's not as if she's using the stereotype to shine a light on the fact that it's a stereotype, and to say anything profound about it. There's no mesaage there. Just... laziness. I mean, it's easier to tap into the cultural acceptance of the goblin than to redesign the creature from scratch, right?
But, then... why have them in charge of the bank? If not to reinforce that she really did mean people to lean into the characterisation as Jewish?

So when does perpetuating a description (if that's what she's doing) that has been built on a history of racism, itself become racism, rather than just laziness?

Meh. A tangled mess.
Just my thoughts on her writing.

А русские там есть? Если есть, то в виде кого? (Я Гарри Потера не читала).

 

[parmalee]

The Times of Israel:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jk-rowling-tells-victims-of-anti-semitism-you-arent-alone/

*********************
Jon Stewart

Jon Stewart denies accusing JK Rowling of anti-Semitism

The US chat-show host denies accusing the Harry Potter author of anti-Semitism in comments on a podcast.

www.bbc.co.uk

The actors Daniel Radcliffe and Helena Bonham Carter are Jewish.

Not wasting my time on this illiterate fuckwit.

Read what I fucking said:

Actually, what many have said, going back some 20-odd years now (though not within this thread), is that both the Harry Potter books and films are filled with racist tropes. Do you honestly not see anything problematic about the goblin bankers?

Do you understand the difference here?

 

[parmalee]

Because they are anti-Semitic? Goblins have been around for over 600 years, and have featured prominently in literature and media from Tolkien, Gygax, Pratchett, the Spider-Man series, Robinson and several others. I think that's the basis of their inclusion in Harry Potter, rather than any creation in order to be an anti-Semitic trope.

(I mean, I guess every single one of those authors/sources could also be anti-Semitic - but it's unlikely IMO.)

Your question is more reasonable, but I think that Sarkus' post pretty much covers it.

 

[parmalee]

The issue is not the inclusion of goblins per se, not even that they are in line with Western cultural norms in terms of description (Western culture is littered with anti-Semitic tropes that have become accepted and, mostly, divorced from the antisemitism for anyone not studying history of art etc. just look at witches, gargoyles, etc), but it's with having them in charge of the bank, and being almost exclusively about the money / finance.
Did Tolkien or Gygax have the race being focused on finance?
Now, whether this is JKR being deliberately antisemitic or just lazy enough in her characterisations to not care that it might be considered as such, I think I'd plump for the latter.

Precisely. And this, for the most part, is what people have been contending (re: Rowling) for a couple of decades now.

Lots of writers are guilty of this. Stephen King, considering the sheer volume of his writing, has done this a lot. He's also gotten a lot better about it, and he graciously acknowledges his laziness in the past. (A lot of people have a problem with that part, for some reason.) I mean, how many times has King used the magical black man (sometimes woman) trope? Or the epileptics with crazy ass "powers"? (Actually, that one's real.). Or the multitudes of stereotypical nationals, even second or third generation "nationals"?

[And, fwiw, I hadn't even considered goblins being based on Jews until I saw the HP films. My internal image of a goblin is somewhat less... specific]

You could look at how wonderfully she characterises all the other minorities: I mean there's the only Asian character, who she called Cho Chang. The only black adult who she called Shacklebolt. The Irish pupil Seamus Finnegan, who always tried to blow things up and turn water into alcohol.

An aspect of laziness is simply that it's familiar. It takes a lot of work to convey that a character is very... whatever without relying upon stereotypes to an extent. And this goes for the real world, as well. People who know me are, bluntly, not surprised that I complain a lot, that I'm... frugal (and rather good with money), etc.; in fact, they kind of expect it.

 

[parmalee]

Please explain what you see as the problematic aspect of that.

Does JKR identify goblins with Jews in the Harry Potter books? Are goblins Jewish?

Is JKR just being racist against goblins?

Is it racist to say a goblin can be a banker?

What's the problem, parmalee? Explain.

Figure it out, troll.

And maybe, read what I actually said--have you ever considered trying that?

 

[parmalee]

Anyway, this discussion was already had (kinda) with respect to Nosferatu--see here. Was Stoker an antisemite? Don't know, but probably, kinda. How about Murnau? Schreck? Gets a little more convoluted there. Conversely, much of Herzog's film was about addressing the overt antisemitism of the original, and how better to do that than to employ a loathesome prick who's also a genius like Klaus Kinski? Eggers' film... frankly, I thought it was kind of lame; maybe I was jusy expecting something comparable to The Witch.

 

[Sarkus]

А русские там есть? Если есть, то в виде кого? (Я Гарри Потера не читала).

Nothing significant about Russia itself, although mention of Russia having a similar school of Wizadry to Hogwarts.
The closest she gets is with Viktor Krum, a Bulgarian Quidditch player, but other than the name evoking some Eastern European, I don't recall there being anything in either his description or his actions as being particularly stereotypical. Another point raised against Rowling's writing, and whether this is a further indication of laziness or a deliberateness on her part, but she quite often has these people from other cultures yet, beyond the name, there is often little to suggest anything "otherness" about them. I.e. the "diversity" of the characters is really only skin (and name) deep. Maybe that's Rowling saying that wherever we come from, we're ultimately all the same, or maybe it's a lazy attempt to add diversity, or perhaps a deliberate attempt to add diversity without then playing on the stereotypes one might expect.
Again, I'd put it down to laziness. After all, while immensely popular, the books aren't exactly high-brow literature. They're much better than the awful Twilight series, but the actual writing is... sufficient for purpose. I think the first book was aimed at the pre-teens, so one shouldn't expect too much, and then maybe it gets better the longer the series goes on. Whether this is because she's becoming a better writer, or maybe she's writing to reflect the year-group that Harry is in at the time, i.e. gets older with each book? (I haven't seen any analysis of that, so can't tell, but would have been quite a feat to pull off.) But it's a long time since I read the books.

 

[parmalee]

Are there Russians there? If so, in what form? (I haven't read Harry Potter).

Not sufficiently familiar with the Harry Potter universe, but when it comes to Russian stereotypes generally, we in the West do not hold back. It's weird, with respect to Irish, Italians, basically every other national, people have come to exercise some restraint; but when it comes to Russians? Maybe it's because you're technically an "enemy", but we've got other enemies as well, and we try to show a little more "sensitivity" to them. Also, historically in cartoon soundtracks, we rely heavily upon Russian composers. I don't know if that really has anything to do with anything, but it's significant in some way.

Jews have always been a little more complicated, because, well, there's a lot of Jews in Hollywood, in writing, and in the arts generally, and Jews, frankly, have a much better sense of humor about themselves and about pretty much everything generally (possibly because they are also considerably over-represented in comedy, as well, for a host of historic reasons). Bluntly, the "best" Jewish stereotypes originate with Jews themselves.

So when someone considers it so significant that Helena Bonham Carter and Daniel Radcliffe are Jewish that they need to point this out twice, I'm completely at a loss as to what he seems to think that that means. Anyone?

 

[ольга]

Not sufficiently familiar with the Harry Potter universe, but when it comes to Russian stereotypes generally, we in the West do not hold back. It's weird, with respect to Irish, Italians, basically every other national, people have come to exercise some restraint; but when it comes to Russians? Maybe it's because you're technically an "enemy", but we've got other enemies as well, and we try to show a little more "sensitivity" to them. Also, historically in cartoon soundtracks, we rely heavily upon Russian composers. I don't know if that really has anything to do with anything, but it's significant in some way.

Jews have always been a little more complicated, because, well, there's a lot of Jews in Hollywood, in writing, and in the arts generally, and Jews, frankly, have a much better sense of humor about themselves and about pretty much everything generally (possibly because they are also considerably over-represented in comedy, as well, for a host of historic reasons). Bluntly, the "best" Jewish stereotypes originate with Jews themselves.

So when someone considers it so significant that Helena Bonham Carter and Daniel Radcliffe are Jewish that they need to point this out twice, I'm completely at a loss as to what he seems to think that that means. Anyone?

Я думаю, это из-за многолетней пропаганды с обеих сторон. В СССР, а теперь и в наше время, нам годами вбивали в голову, что американцы тупые, помешанные на деньгах, малоразвитые, и половина из них, если не большая часть - педики и извращенцы всех мастей. Вот этими "западными ценностями" и сейчас пугают доверчивых граждан. Есть даже уничижительное название на сленге для конкретно американцев - "пиндосы". А как называют русских в Америке?

 

[foghorn]

Not wasting my time on this illiterate fuckwit.

Read what I fucking said:

Do you understand the difference here?

Maybe it’s a case of the film company reverting back to its earlier 30s and 40s racist Warner Bros tradition. Back then it was kosher ok to be racist.

Censored Eleven - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Censored Eleven is a group of Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies cartoons originally produced and released by Warner Bros. between 1931 and 1944. All of them have been withheld from syndication in the United States by United Artists (UA) since 1968. UA owned the distribution rights to the Associated Artists Productions library at that time, and decided to pull these 11 cartoons from broadcast because the use of ethnic stereotypes in the cartoons, specifically African and African-American stereotypes, was deemed too offensive for contemporary audiences.

An old can of Hollywood worms.

 

[Pinball1970]

Jews have always been a little more complicated, because, well, there's a lot of Jews in Hollywood, in writing, and in the arts generally, and Jews, frankly, have a much better sense of humor about themselves and about pretty much everything generally (possibly because they are also considerably over-represented in comedy, as well, for a host of historic reasons). Bluntly, the "best" Jewish stereotypes originate with Jews themselves.

Yes Mel Brooks spring ( times for Hitler) to mind. He took racism head on and made fun of it with another Jew Gene Wilder.

 

[Sarkus]

So when someone considers it so significant that Helena Bonham Carter and Daniel Radcliffe are Jewish that they need to point this out twice, I'm completely at a loss as to what he seems to think that that means. Anyone?

Well, dur! If JKR was an anti-semite then she would certainly have ensured that the person playing the hero would be non-Jewish, right? I mean, can't have a Jewish person being the saviour, right? Being killed but then rising again to defeat evil? So clearly JKR is not an anti-semite!

More seriously, why they mentioned HBC and Radcliffe specifically, though, and not Jason Isaacs, Miriam Margolyes, or Zoe Wannamaker...??

 

[Pinball1970]

Never thought of the Goblin thing with JK. Tolkien was mentioned but strictly speaking they were no goblins they were Orcs, a bastardization of Elves.

Dickens however with Fagin and Scrooge is probably a lot closer to what is being discussed here but that was the middle of the 19th Century.

 

[parmalee]

Yes Mel Brooks spring ( times for Hitler) to mind. He took racism head on and made fun of it with another Jew Gene Wilder.

Yeah, and it takes a good deal of talent to do this well. One might even argue that marginalized groups have a sort of "advantage" in comedy, both because they're immersed in what they poke fun at, but also because they might have a bit more license and freedom to say and do things that might be a little suspect when coming from someone else.

 

[Pinball1970]

Yeah, and it takes a good deal of talent to do this well. One might even argue that marginalized groups have a sort of "advantage" in comedy, both because they're immersed in what they poke fun at, but also because they might have a bit more license and freedom to say and do things that might be a little suspect when coming from someone else.

With that stuff certainly, it is their party, they have earned it.

I recommend Chris Rock Sketch - he sums it up. Following the N word appearing in movies, RAP songs by black artists

"So is now ok for a white guy to use the N word? ...........Not reallllyy."