Ms Rowling and her Harry Potter books: antisemitic?

Sarkus:

??? Is this you telling me you haven't read what people have said without actually telling me you haven't read what people have said?
No. You have made a mistake, again, misunderstanding what I wrote. This is becoming something of a habit with you, it seems.
Provide evidence, for example, of where anyone has suggested that Jon Stewart has said or written anything antisemitic, or transphobic?
You simply misunderstood what I wrote. No big deal.

Have you been following the discussion at all? We were talking about people claiming that Jon Stewart accused JK Rowling of being antisemitic, see. I pointed out that he didn't. Clearly, you've got things a bit mixed up, for some reason. Maybe try reading the thread before going off half cocked, next time.
I mean, have you actually read what has been written in this thread?
Yes, I have, Sarkus. Thanks for asking!
I don’t agree that it’s worth it when it is superfluous...
And since what I posted was not superfluous, then we're all good. Right?

e.g. when, as in this case, you are simply restating what has already been posted (albeit via a link). In full.
Try to keep up. What Job Stewart wrote about not calling JK Rowling an antisemite was not posted in full, until I posted it. I even commented on that, explicitly.
This entire thread is about what JKR has said, for example.
It's good to see you made it to first base, at least. Now, get yourself fully up to speed and you'll do just fine, I'm sure.
And the tropes that are actually in the Potter books.
Quotes, please.
(Have you read the books, James R?)
Why, yes, Sarkus. I have. Thanks for asking. Have you?
And about what Stewart has said and written, both as criticism of the antisemitic tropes in the book, and in defence of JKR as an anti-semite.
What? You mean, apart from the things I actually quoted from him in my post and the things from him that Tiassa posted, which I was commenting on?

What else is relevant?
I also don’t think it’s worth it if all you’re doing is repeating that which has already been posted, and doing so without comment.
It's a good thing I didn't do that, then, isn't it? I'd hate you to think something I posted wasn't worth it. You being my hero and all. I crave your approval, as you know.
You criticise others for simply posting videos without comment, and here you were posting a response by Stewart without comment.
Indeed. And I explained why, at some length, after you expressed your initial confusion on the matter. You probably missed that. Try reading the thread.
??? Is this you telling me you haven't read what Tiassa has said without actually telling me you haven't read what Tiassa has said?
No. You've got yourself all tied in knots, again.
First he links to the BBC article that has the quote in full.
Indeed. But he did not reproduce the quote. Like I said. So I did. I explained why. Try to keep up.
So he’s not hiding anything, despite your desperate wish for him to be so nefarious.
I didn't accuse Tiassa of hiding something. I accused him of cherry picking - which, clearly, he did/does. Try to keep up.
He then clearly summarises Stewart’s view. To wit:
“But Stewart didn't say Rowling is an antisemite. Rather, he observed the presence of historically antisemitic tropes in the film.” – Tiassa – post #480
Kudos to Tiassa for his succinct summary, then! Neverthless, I think it was worth quoting what Stewart himself wrote.
Are you disagreeing with this summary of what Stewart has said, taking into account both the quote in the BBC article and what he has previously said, explicitly highlighting the presence of historically antisemitic tropes in the film?
I am disagreeing with Tiassa's ongoing attempts to demonise JK Rowling, first as a transphobe and now as an antisemite. Try to keep up.
So you really haven’t read what anyone has been saying. Okay. Got it.
*sigh* You're all at sea again. Every time you go off like this, you end up in a big muddle and it all ends in tears. I suggest: maybe take a breath and try not spinning out your humilation to the n-th degree this time around. It never ends well when you go all pedantic like this. Especially when you don't know which end of the stick you're holding.
Is there any point in me reading more of what you've offered when you misrepresent, or simply misunderstand, what people are saying.
That's for you to decide, Sarkus. Since you're reading this, it looks like you think there's a point. So, I think you've found your answer!
 
(continued...)
But let’s start here: do you understand the difference between…
• That one has done something antisemitic, or resembling antisemitism.
• That one is an antisemite.
(Oh, is this the start of the on-topic content, now?)

I'm not sure. Explain the difference to me, please.

Or do you think that saying that you think someone has done something that resembles antisemitism is an accusation of them being an antisemite?
I'm not sure yet. I'll wait for your explanation and then let you know what I think in light of that.

What do you think about this?
There is no "teaming up", there is also, on my part at least, no effort to try and paint anyone as an antisemite or transphobe.
I'm sure we're all glad to hear you're not involved. Thanks, Sarkus.
So an apology would be appreciated.
I'll wait and see how this plays out, first, I think. Then, once we're all done, I will give it some more consideration. It's not completely clear to me yet what your long-term goals are in this conversation.
Or can you point to anything I've said that suggests I'm trying to do that?
Yes. Of course I can. You mostly appear to criticise me after one or more people are already piling on. You seem to prefer to hunt with a pack, rather than on your own. It's a recognisable pattern with you. Stick the boot in while the man's down, you think.
Tell you what, James R, try reading and understanding what people are writing, rather than relying on your interpretation of their history. You are letting your emotions obscure you actually paying attention.
Damn those pesky emotions, always getting the better of me! It's a wonder I can understand anything people are writing, in the absence of your continual surveillance and careful advice, Sarkus. It's why I have adopted you as my personal hero, as you know. You're the role model I look to, to learn how to be a better person. I should be more like an emotionless robot, I think, don't you? I think that's the way to be. And I should try reading what people are writing. Eureka! What a novel concept! Thanks, Sarkus! You truly are a font of wisdom.
As for our own history. :rolleyes: Sure. Whatever. There’s no defeating your delusion in such matters. You think I'm still habouring a grudge, yet you're the only one that keeps bringing up the past. Get over yourself already!
I should try to be more like you. My hero. But it's hard to live up to your example, Sarkus. I always fall short. You're just too wise. You understand what people write and you always try reading what people are writing. Me, on the other hand: I struggle. But at least I have you to set an example to strive towards.
Facts that people have already been cognisant of, and have been using in their analysis.
Does your analysis tell you that Jon Stewart thinks that JK Rowling is an antisemite, or not? What's your conclusion on that, so far?
If you want to disagree with their conclusion, simply restating the facts is showing you to be little more than a troll.
Oh. You're hurting me, with your unkind accusations. Please stop!
Again, you’re really only telling me you haven’t read what anyone has said, without actually telling me.
I told you no such thing. What are you talking about, Sarkus?
And there you were, talking about facts. You just choose to ignore them when it suits you, I guess. Ah, well.
Which relevant facts did I ignore, Sarkus? Please explain.
So, what are you saying on the matter, James R?
Which matter? If you have a question for me, please ask it directly.
Just repeating facts with no opinion of your own?
It's what many great journalists do. They gather the facts and report them, leaving other people to make up their own minds, hopefully based on the facts. I think I'm in good company.
:rolleyes: There’s no grudge, James R. Not on my side, at least.
Your words give me great comfort because, as you know, you're my hero.
Notice that you’re the one who keeps bringing up the notion. You’re the one that keeps reflecting back.
You never appear in a thread at random to comment on something I've posted, Sarkus. Nor do you ever show up to applaud something I've written, or to express your agreement. But whenever there's a posse out for my blood, you're almost guaranteed to stick your nose in to add criticism and insult to the mix.

Such patterns do not go unnoticed. It is always worth remembering history, I think. It has many things to teach us.
All I see is you trying to avoid having to respond to what is actually asked of you, and what is actually said.
All I see is you sticking your pendantic nose in to try to take a bite out of me by jumping on parmalee's angry bandwagon. You don't seem to have learned that you never come out of this kind of act smelling like roses. Perhaps you never will.
You made me think that I was right that you haven’t read, or at least haven’t understood, what people have been saying in this thread.
I can't make you think anything, Sarkus. Your thoughts are entirely your own - especially the error-laden ones.
You have maybe given a cursory look, but you haven’t really understood.
I have to smile at the irony of you writing that. Half of every conversation you and I have, like this one, goes right over your head. You just blather along, entirely unaware of why your incisive personal commentary never seems to land like you thought it would. You lack self-awareness. You don't even think you're going wrong - quite the opposite, in fact. You're supremely confident in your opinions and judgments about other people, even when it's obvious to most of us that you're not very good at this stuff.
You see the players, and you unfortunately just fill in the gaping holes with whatever satisfies your agenda.
There's nothing unfortunate about it.
Therefore you misrepresent, argue strawmen, and you make yourself irrelevant to the actual discussion.
What have I misrepresented in this thread? Be specific, if you can.
What strawmen have I argued in this thread? Be specific, if you can.

Clearly, you think I'm relevant in this discussion. You're practically fixated.
 
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“Here’s how you know Jews are still where they are,” Stewart began. “Talking to people I say, ‘Have you ever seen a ‘Harry Potter’ movie?’ and people are all like, ‘Oh, I love the ‘Harry Potter’ movies!’ and I’m like, ‘Have you ever seen the scenes in Gringotts Bank?’ and they’re like, ‘Oh, I love Gringotts Bank’ and I’m like, ‘Do you know what those folks who run the bank are?’ and they’re like, ‘What?’ and I’m like, ‘Jews.’”

Stewart continued, comparing the portrayal of the goblins to caricatures of Jews. “Let me show you this from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, I just want to show you a caricature and they’re like, ‘Oh, look at that, that’s from ‘Harry Potter,’’ and you’re like, ‘No, that’s a caricature of a Jew from an anti-Semitic piece of literature.’ J.K. Rowling was like, ‘Can we get these guys to run our bank?’ and you’re like, ‘It’s a wizarding world. It’s a world where the train station has a half a thing and no one can see it and we can ride dragons and you’ve gotta pet owls. Who’s gonna run the bank? Jews?”

Stewart added, “They look like Jews but what if the teeth were sharper?”

The former “Daily Show” host then explained that he immediately picked up on the troublesome portrayal when seeing the first “Harry Potter” movie in theaters, but felt like he was in a horror movie when no one else felt the same.

“It reminded me of those horror movies where everyone’s been taken over by the thing but you haven’t so you’re looking around and every time someone sees you they go, ‘Ah!’ It was one of those things where I saw it on the screen and I was expecting the crowd to be like, ‘Holy s—, she did not in a wizarding world just throw Jews in there to run the f—-ing underground bank,’ and everybody was just like, ‘Wizards!’”

Stewart’s observation concluded with, “Even Dobby was like, ‘That’s f—ed up.’”

-----------------
Careful, parmalee.

Sarkus will surely be jumping in at any moment now to point out that you're uselessly reposting stuff that was posted previously, and taking you to task for that.

(Won't you, Sarkus?)
 
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parmalee:

Read. The. Fucking. Thread.
Already did.
Seriously, how fucking stupid are you?
You should spend less time trying to insult people and more time trying to answer the questions that people ask you.
Good to know that you have now clarified that you, in fact, are an apologist for bigots, just as countless people have been maintaining for years.
Which bigots have I defended, parmalee?

Are you talking about JK Rowling? You haven't managed to convince me that JK Rowling is a bigot, yet.

Or are you referring to some other bigot you think I have defended?

Please be specific, because I take your accusation that I am an apologist for bigots seriously. Please document my bigotry apologetics, if you can.

Here ya go, prick:
Your flaming insults are in breach of our site posting guidelines. Please avoid using that kind of language in referring to other members of this forum in future.

Are you at all familiar with the concept of a dog whistle? Are you familiar with the concept of metaphor?
I am familiar with both concepts, parmalee.

Is it your contention, then, that either JK Rowling, or the makers of the Harry Potter films, or both, were dog whistling to antisemitic haters?

Tell me: do you think that everybody involved in the production of the films was in on the whole "let's put a bunch of antisemitic tropes into the movies" plan, or just some of them? Which ones, in particular, do you identify as the primary antisemites? Which ones enacted the evil plan?

It could also be interesting to discuss whether anybody who was not antisemitic was involved in the films and, if so, why. Did a few non-bigots slip through the net? The lead actors, for instance?

Granted, maybe the bigots didn't have full control over the production, but managed to sneak in some antisemitic tropes largely unnoticed and definitely uncommented on until years later. Is that what happened?

Do you think that JK herself was behind the scenes pulling the strings to make sure that the director, the producers, the costumers, etc. put all the desired anti-semitic tropes into the films?
 
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Moderator note: parmalee has been warned for repeatedly insulting another forum member.

Due to accumulated warning points, parmalee will be taking a short break from sciforums.
 
Are you saying that you don't think that JKR is antisemitic now, but that she did/does put antisemitic tropes in her work? Is it unconscious then? If so, do you think it's fair to condemn her?

Or perhaps you think that JKR just doesn't care if there's antisemitism in her work? That would mean that, despite not being a conscious antisemite, she's still a sort of unconscious antisemite? It that possible? Can people be unconscious antisemites?

Or are you going to stick with your originally-expressed opinion of JKR: that she's a "myopic c**t"?
A third option worth considering here, in terms of the inclusion of ethnic stereotypes in her works, is that she is merely tone deaf. i.e. she uses (*used - the first book is now almost 30 years old) existing, common tropes without being forward-thinking about how they will be received in the 21st century.


OK. This is effictvely the same as the "lazy writing" allegation. Not much help there, sorry.
 
DaveC:

There has been lots of talk about the Harry Potter films, so far, but very little talk about the books.

Can anybody quote any antisemitic tropes from the books? Or is the entire argument based on the visual depiction of some goblins in the films? It it is, does the responsibility for the choices made there rest with JK Rowling? Literally thousands of people worked on the films.

More importantly, is there any evidence that JKR herself stipulated that certain tropes were to be included in the films?
 
Okay, to keep this on track even slightly, I’ll ignore your initial ad hominem-aden bullshit and dishonest behaviour. So that really only leaves the following:
I'm not sure. Explain the difference to me, please.
...
I'm not sure yet. I'll wait for your explanation and then let you know what I think in light of that.
You’re not sure if you see a difference between those options? Heck, maybe there isn’t one. The question is not whether there is a difference, it’s whether you see a difference. Do you? I can’t answer this for you.

I mean, I’m assuming that you know what each option means? I’ve set out what not seeing a difference results in, so surely you either see a difference or you don’t. Which is it?
What do you think about this?
I’ve asked you, James R, and if, as you have repeatedly claimed, you have read the thread then you would know what I think about it. That you are here asking me what I think is yet further evidence that you have not read the thread.
I'll wait and see how this plays out, first, I think. Then, once we're all done, I will give it some more consideration. It's not completely clear to me yet what your long-term goals are in this conversation.
So you’ve accused me of trying to paint people as an antisemite or a transphobe, yet with zero evidence you won’t apologise because… what… you think I may do in the future?

Didn’t you repeatedly have hysterical fits about Tiassa accusing you of things for which he did not apologise? What if he used this same pathetic tactic? If you expect/demand things of others, maybe you shouldn’t act so hypocritically when you find yourself at the other end of things.
Yes. Of course I can. You mostly appear to criticise me after one or more people are already piling on. You seem to prefer to hunt with a pack, rather than on your own. It's a recognisable pattern with you. Stick the boot in while the man's down, you think.
So that’s a “no”, then; you can’t actually point to anything I’ve said where I’m trying to paint you as an antisemite or a transphobe. You’ve said “Of course I can”… so do so! Point it out. I first addressed a post of yours when you posted Stewart’s quote with zero commentary of your own. Since then you have attacked me almost exclusively.

As for preferring to “hunt with a pack”, FFS, James R. I don’t need others for me to kick you when I think you’re being dishonest, when I think you’re being hypocritical, etc. History shows that. So stop lying. When I call you out it is because I think what you have done is worthy of being called out. Irrespective of whether the world or no one else does so. So quit your bullshit in this regard.

Either provide evidence where I have tried to paint you, or anyone in this thread, as an antisemite or a transphobe. Or apologise publicly for wrongfully accusing me, given how much you love people to apologise.


[Snip more of your hysterics]
Does your analysis tell you that Jon Stewart thinks that JK Rowling is an antisemite, or not? What's your conclusion on that, so far?
He doesn’t think she’s an antisemite. This was actually clear from the time he was criticising the tropes in the book. It was reinforced when he felt he needed to explicitly state as much. It was made clear in this thread when the article was linked, and when Tiassa summarised his position.
I told you no such thing. What are you talking about, Sarkus?
There’s a whole thread around the notion that people quite often claim they’re not talking about X just because they haven’t mentioned X. Even when everything they have been saying confirms that it is indeed X that they are talking about, even if not explicitly mentioned. What you’re suffering from is very similar indeed, so that thread might be worth a look for you.

To wit: if what you type strongly suggests that you have not actually read something, then you don’t need to have actually said that you have not read it for others to recognise that you have not read it. And thus far you have done very little to show that you have actually read the thread(s) in question. Simples, really.
Which relevant facts did I ignore, Sarkus? Please explain.
You claimed: “If, however, you want to make a case for there being something in the Harry Potter books that is antisemitic, then by all means make it. God knows nobody else has, yet” yet the thread is full of people discussing things in the book that are antisemitic – i.e. the antisemitic tropes, notably the goblin bankers. Just look at #1 of this split-out thread, for example.

So, you have ignored that fact. Comprendez?
Which matter? If you have a question for me, please ask it directly.
More dishonesty from you, James R. Gets tiresome after a while. I have asked many questions of you, and you have obfuscated, deflected, evaded, deferred etc. Go back and actually read that which you are responding to. Might help you catch up.
You never appear in a thread at random to comment on something I've posted, Sarkus. Nor do you ever show up to applaud something I've written, or to express your agreement. But whenever there's a posse out for my blood, you're almost guaranteed to stick your nose in to add criticism and insult to the mix.
I’m sorry you think that. If you think I’m treating you any differently to the way I treat others, by all means send me a PM to discuss, rather than hash it out in public. I don’t follow a posse. I rarely, if ever, just post to express agreement. If I haven’t “liked” one of your posts, it’s more than likely because it is banal and offers nothing worthy of me adding my agreement. I don’t “like” or express agreement with the vast majority of posters and posts. I mostly only post when I disagree. But, again, if you don’t like that, tough shit.
Such patterns do not go unnoticed. It is always worth remembering history, I think. It has many things to teach us.
It does, for sure. Just a pity you have a somewhat delusional view of history that, frankly, isn’t worth a hill of beans.
All I see is you sticking your pendantic nose in to try to take a bite out of me by jumping on parmalee's angry bandwagon. You don't seem to have learned that you never come out of this kind of act smelling like roses. Perhaps you never will.
Oh, I am pedantic, for sure. That doesn’t mean I’m wrong. And no, I don’t jump on bandwagons. History, if you ever bothered to read what people actually post, will show you that.

Look, it boils down to this, James R: if you, or anyone, posts something I disagree with and I consider it worth commenting on, I will. It’s that simple. Nothing more. Nothing less. If you feel I’m giving you special consideration, furthering some grudge you think I have, that is entirely on you. Yes, I think you’re one of the most dishonest posters here. Yes, I think you are one of, if not the most hypocritical posters here. But beyond that, I treat you no differently.

Maybe ask yourself why I seem to call you out for such so often compared to others. You can deny, you can insult me, you can disparage my character all you want, you can think I’m wrong, that I’m a poor judge of character, but all you’re doing is showing the world who you are. I’ll attack character when I am similarly attacked, for sure. But all I really want from you, James R, from anyone, in fact, is to stick to what is written, and to write what you mean. Mistakes can happen, sure, but dishonesty is something else. And I don’t like it.

And if you’re tired of these tit-for-tats, just look at who starts them. History shows that, too, as in this thread.


[The rest I’ve snipped because it’s yet more irrelevance from you, more bullshit, more ad hominem, more dishonesty, more delusion. Hey ho.]


So, are you going to actually respond honestly to the on-topic questions I've asked?
 
A third option worth considering here, in terms of the inclusion of ethnic stereotypes in her works, is that she is merely tone deaf. i.e. she uses (*used - the first book is now almost 30 years old) existing, common tropes without being forward-thinking about how they will be received in the 21st century.


OK. This is effictvely the same as the "lazy writing" allegation. Not much help there, sorry.
Yeah - this is what I was alluding to previously. "Tone deaf" is probably as good a way to say it as any other, though. :)
 
Yeah - this is what I was alluding to previously. "Tone deaf" is probably as good a way to say it as any other, though. :)
At the very least , "tone deaf" is a phrase that doesn't call out the torches and pitchforks like transphobe and antisemite does.

Undoubtedly, there are many in society that are certain this is indeed a transphobe/antisemite issue, and I don't wish to diminish that, but it kind of does encourage strawman arguments, knee-jerk reactions and broad brush painting, which is not good for considered discussion of a specific issue/person.

I'd take the twin approaches of not guilty until proven guilty, and only guilty of the least provable charges.
 
At the very least , "tone deaf" is a phrase that doesn't call out the torches and pitchforks like transphobe and antisemite does.
To be fair, nor does "lazy writing". ;)
Undoubtedly, there are many in society that are certain this is indeed a transphobe/antisemite issue, and I don't wish to diminish that, but it kind of does encourage strawman arguments, knee-jerk reactions and broad brush painting, which is not good for considered discussion of a specific issue/person.

I'd take the twin approaches of not guilty until proven guilty, and only guilty of the least provable charges.
Okay. But for some the examples may speak to a wider pattern. And at some point, so it might be argued, those individual examples can no longer be excused as "tone deaf", or "lazy writing". Individually those examples could possibly be excused as such, but as a whole the pattern may paint a different picture.
In court, for example, each circumstantial piece of evidence might be explained away in isolation as an innocent event, but when looked at together in their entirety, the chances of them all being innocent events might diminish. Or so some lawyers might argue.
And I think that is what some here are suggesting may be a possibility.
 
You’re not sure if you see a difference between those options? Heck, maybe there isn’t one. The question is not whether there is a difference, it’s whether you see a difference. Do you? I can’t answer this for you.

I mean, I’m assuming that you know what each option means? I’ve set out what not seeing a difference results in, so surely you either see a difference or you don’t. Which is it?

I find myself wondering—

But let’s start here: do you understand the difference between…
• That one has done something antisemitic, or resembling antisemitism.
• That one is an antisemite.

Or do you think that saying that you think someone has done something that resembles antisemitism is an accusation of them being an antisemite?

—given how confusing that basic difference seems to be in these discussions of Rowling, what might happen if I remind that, in Spanish, there are two different words for the verb, "to be", and they actually mean different things about states of being.
 
True.

I also think there's a difference between the two issues. (I am sure this has been addressed somewhere in the last 400 posts), to-wit:

She actively defends how she feels about gender-binism , whereas she does not defend her alleged employment of racist stereotypes.

To put words in her mouth:

"Yes, I assert there are only two genders. I will defend that even if it means from behind bars."

"No, I do not assert my money-loving goblins are stereotypes at all, there is nothing to defend here."

She may be tone-deaf about antisemitism on her writing, but she's well aware of the controversy when it comes to transgenderism.

I mention the distinction because I find myself continually starting a point about one and inadvertently crossing it with the other, and ending somewhere else. I think they need to be treated as discrete discussion points.
 
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