Most powerful empire in history?

brenton said:
I think the most powerful empire was the british colonial empire. come on... these guys ruled almost half the world for almost 200 years

Whoa-- not anywhere close to "half the world." It was at most 1/4 of the world even during the British Empire's peak and a much lower fraction in terms of population-- much of the empire was vast landmasses like Canada that are sparsely populated. My apologies for a long post here, but I've been studying this topic (world empires) now for over 15 years in detail, and for reasons I'll explain, the best ranking for the British Empire is about #6-- behind China and the Islamic Empire founded by Muhammad and Umar Ibn al-Khattab (#1 and #2 by far), then the Roman Empire at #3 (not quite the same territorial extent but durability and legacy almost unparalleled), then the Spanish Empire #4 (see below), then Alexander the Great's Macedonian Empire (enormous in size and population but more importantly, tremendously influential in legacy-- modern world religions, the Hellenistic legacy, language patterns, even timekeeping-- spread of the 60-second minute and 60-minute hour-- and mathematical systems, trade, coins all stem from Alexander) at #5, then finally the British at #6. The British could have been #3 if they'd stayed out of WWI (a couple other counterfactuals offered up), but they ruined themselves economically with that war and lost far too many men and funds, not to mention their imperial hold on Asia.

Most importantly, is that Britain's Empire was 1. very short-lived compared to most other big empires like the Roman Empire or even the Spanish Empire from the late 1400's. Britain really didn't have much of an overseas empire (outside of Ireland, which had some colonization stretching all the way back to Henry II in the mid-1100's) until after the French and Indian War, i.e. the Seven Years' War, after 1763. The World Wars, post-WWII colonial wars and nationalist movements destroyed the British Empire after 1945, which gives it less than 200 years. Paltry compared to Rome or Spain who had similarly large empires (especially Spain, which in total landmass and proportional population was actually a bit larger at its peak in the early 1620's), and pathetic compared to the bona fide juggernauts like China and the old Arab Islamic Empire, which have encompassed an enormous land mass and continue to the present, in China's case in a very clear political form.

1763 was the key year for the British. after the French got knocked out. That was when Britain was finally able to establish itself in India, Australia, even North America (which prior to that was predominantly in Spanish and French hands). England's overseas empire may have started with a tiny foothold on Newfoundland when Henry VII sent John Cabot there to begin a fishing settlement in 1497, but after that it was glacial-- James I and John Smith got Jamestown going in 1607, and then it was 1763 before much further expansion took place.

As for the fall of the Empire-- Britain suffered a disastrous blow to its empire after World War I, which essentially drained the UK of two centuries' worth of treasure, and for reasons I still can't remotely fathom, the British officership decided to send 1 million of the country's best, brightest and most dedicated citizens to be mowed down by German machine guns at the Somme and Ypres in WWI-- in a war that was mainly a Continental affair and where Britain really had almost nothing to gain and everything to lose. WWII of course caused multiple other hits-- the Blitz, the Narvik disaster, and especially the catastrophe in Singapore at the hands of the Japanese in 1942 inflicting a mortal wound. (Again, a bit ironic since Britain wasn't a priority Axis target-- Russia and China were the chief targets of the Nazis and Tojo's regime, respectively.) Britain was then defeated in some small colonial wars after WWII-- the British were actually humiliated in Indonesia in 1945, which they were occupying in the hopes of re-establishing their and Dutch supremacy (which would maintain the trade networks that British Malaya relied upon), and in fact a British WWII hero-- General Mallaby-- was killed in the Indonesian war, while whole British columns were annihilated at Surabaya and British Indian soldiers defected to the Indonesian insurgency. The Brits were frustrated in Vietnam when Gen. Gracey inserted his troops in 1945-46 there, then also defeated in Burma, where the Burmese patriots had ousted the Japanese and obtained a good deal of Japanese weaponry, thus armed to the teeth against the British forces. These wars further drained Britain and helped to split India from British rule by 1947-1948, and it was also in 1948 that the British were defeated and kicked out of Palestine, following the Irgun attacks. This is really the date of the British Empire's decline, just as Dienbienphu in 1954 marks it for the French-- there were later British defeats and disasters (e.g. the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya, Suez in 1956, Aden in the 1960's) but it was really by 1948, with the loss of Southeast Asia, India, Burma *and* Palestine following the defeats at the hands of nationalist forces and the bankruptcy and damage from the World Wars, that the British Empire collapsed.

So, you have 1763-1948 for the British Empire-- not all that much compared to Rome, with less land but much longer durability, less than Spain which had more land *and* more durability (and quite a cultural legacy), and nowhere in the same league as China and the ancient Arab Empires, with both a tremendous amount of land area and durability, and an unparalleled cultural legacy.

2. On that cultural legacy point-- by far the largest English-speaking country in the world today is the United States of America, but ironically, the vast majority of what's now the US was never in the British Empire. The US wasn't like Latin America, all of which was under the Spanish crown (or Portuguese, in the case of Brazil). The vast majority, over 80% of current US territory was French (Louisiana Purchase) or Spanish (Southwest and Florida), or Russian (Alaska), never British, and acquired by the US after the American Revolution and during a period when the US was a direct competitor , culturally and economically, against the British. The other British settler colonies now countries-- Canada (which is both English and French in origin), Australia, and New Zealand-- collectively number about 50 million people.

Outside of that, British influence pales compared to that of e.g. the Romans, who imprinted themselves powerfully on three continents for almost half a millennium, or the Spaniards, and again nowhere near that of the modern East Asian Empires or the Arab empires. The British certainly had an impact on India, which was really their core colonial possession, but even there it's often vastly overstated. In terms of most-spoken languages-- and this is despite the fact that Indians are so networked with outsourcing from the US-- English is nowhere even close to the top, it's about #15 or so. It's one of about 20 official languages (the national language is Hindi, though not much spoken in the south), but spoken really only by a small elite-- other indigenous languages such as Hindi, Tamil, Marathi, Telugu and Bengali have a far greater presence on the Subcontinent, which is why e.g. Bollywood movies are in Hindi (alongside the flourishing Bengali and Tamil film industries) and not in English. Now, even the courts and ministries, and high-tech industries (which now means computers), which had indeed leaned toward English at 1948, are instead dominated by languages like Hindi, Tamil or Bengali due to sheer force of economic advantage. (Even Rupert Murdoch's lucrative media businesses in India are Hindi-based, not English.) This is in part because the Brits never had that strong a demographic presence in India, compared to e.g. Spain in Central America. Much of India's civil law indeed derives from English roots, but most of India's legal and administrative system stems from more ancient sources-- e.g. the native Gupta Dynasty and the Mughals. The British certainly built some infrastructure like railroads, but not all that much (what was built was chiefly for the British elite and therefore adjusted for that population's small size), and India's great cultural and architectural landmarks like the Taj Mahal are all pre-British in origin. India's chief religions, of course, are Hinduism, Sikhism and Islam-- all pre-British. Furthermore, people's names in India are almost never of British origin (except for the pseudonyms used by a few people in call centers ;); practically everybody in India has a name of Hindu or Muslim origin.

Contrast this with e.g. Latin America. These countries were ruled for 3-4 centuries by Spain and/or Portugal, compared to about two for India. (Much of India's south, BTW was French-ruled, not British.) Spanish and Portuguese predominate here, Spanish Catholicism is by far the dominant religion, Spanish law dominates the courts and statutes, Spanish or Portuguese surnames are used generally by the people, Spanish administrative divisions still delineate the countries, old Spanish customs are still fundamentally in observance, even direct descendants of old Spanish coins are used. (India uses the native rupee, while even the United States uses the dollar, which is descended from the native Joachimstaler used in the old German and Austro-Hungarian states.) Even in the Philippines, where Spanish never replaced the native Tagalog, Spanish surnames, religion, even vocabulary (roughly 20% of Tagalog) define the culture while old Spanish law sits alongside American legal traditions in the courts of that nation. Thus, India-- which was the jewel in Britain's crown-- shows nowhere near the level of cultural influence or legacy that Spain and Portugal's American colonies show, and other British colonies show even less: Iraq, Malaysia, and Yemen for example have very little to show for their brief period of British colonization, with the Arab/Muslim influence predominating by far.

If you're in the business of writing counterfactuals, I think the British could have had a much more durable, lasting and influential world empire with a legacy more like the Romans or the Spanish (though not in the league of the Islamic empires or China), but the British ruined themselves by joining WWI. If the British just stay out of that bloodbath and avoid bleeding themselves dry along with France, then basically the Continental players pummel each for a while, Britain occupies the high ground as a sort of mediator (and maybe uses its naval power to take some extra colonies in Africa or from the Ottomans, like in the French and Indian War), probably Kaiser Wilhelm II gets to make his point as a military leader and have an independent Poland as a buffer in the east (though nothing in the way of territorial gains-- the Kaiser wasn't interested in a Napoleonic sweep, more in just beating up on France and Russia to keep them at bay in 1914), and Britain emerges as by far the most powerful European player, untouched by the Great War and free of the festering rage and revenge roiling the Continent. Furthermore, in this scenario-- there's probably no Soviet Union (which came about from WWI) to spread its anti-colonial ideology and cause the British misery in places like Indonesia, Vietnam, Burma and Egypt down the road! Most importantly, Britain stays rich and maintains its valuable resources (especially it's best and brightest citizens) to maintain a hold on its overseas empire.

Outside of not joining WWI, the British could have had a much more durable empire by (1) not losing the American colonies in 1783 (that was obviously a nasty turn for them), (2) defeating Liniers and the Buenos Aires fighters in 1806-1807, thereby gaining control and Anglicizing much of South America (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_invasions_of_the_Río_de_la_Plata for more on that-- the British invaded Buenos Aires and nearly conquered it but were defeated twice), which would have been a tremendous gain for the British and established them on the critical South American landmass, or (3) not being utterly annihilated in Afghanistan by the Ghilzai warriors in the First Anglo-Afghan War in 1842 and in two other Afghan Wars. Had the British prevailed in Afghanistan, it would have been the British-- not the Russians-- who would have gained control of the strategic and resource-rich Central Asian trade routes and landmasses, and even more importantly, the British would have had a Western base to pry away Chinese control of the Silk Road (China then reeling from the Opium Wars) and move to break up China from land as well as by sea. Remember, China was never colonized, though it suffered very unfavorable trade terms from the Opium Wars, and British defeat in the Afghan mountains was a factor in thwarting them.

I've been studying this subject now for about a decade and a half, and in figuring out the most powerful empire in history-- with power defined not just by landmass or population alone but mainly by durability, presence (i.e., the extent to which a colonizing power makes its presence, culture, customs and so on felt in the colonized region) and influence and legacy-- the British Empire really isn't in the Top Five, it's probably fairest to rank it #6. With any of those counterfactuals-- and especially the British just staying out of World War I (with WWII probably not occurring at all, at least not in the horrific form it eventually did), the British would be #3. But the British catastrophe in WWI basically blew their big chance for that.

#1 would be China, which was founded by Qin Shi Huangdi in 221 B.C. and has now transformed itself into a nation that basically retains the same administrative divisions, urban plans and roads, standard character system (modified in the 1950's), bureaucratic principles, even coinage that were introduced in 221 B.C., over an enormous landmass with 1.4 billion people, a superpower before and probably soon to be one again. You just can't beat that.

#2 is the Arab/Islamic Empire founded by Mohammed and Umar Ibn al-Khattab in the 7th century. The Arabs were a minor tribe in what's now southern Arabia at the time, basically considered a backward people, maybe decent traders but otherwise didn't register anywhere on the radar screen. By the mid-8th century, the Arab/Islamic Empire stretched from the Atlantic all the way to India, with a cultural, religious and linguistic legacy that's still fundamental today.

#3 is the Roman Empire-- probably needs little explanation, stretched over three Continents and lasted for about half a millennium from the founding by Augustus Caesar, at the core of the culture, languages, laws and even physical appearance of Europe, less influential in Africa and Asia but still important there, responsible for Roman form of Christianity becoming the main religion in Europe, even old Roman roads, aqueducts, bridges still in use, a testament to their engineering prowess.

#4 is Spain-- reasons discussed above, enormous territory and population, durability, powerful cultural legacy even among large populations not Spanish themselves (compare India for example).

#5 is Alexander the Great's Macedonian Empire-- as a political unit it was quickly carved up by its generals, but as a cultural unit its importance is hard to estimate. It was because of Alexander that Judea (and the early Christian lands) came into the Greco-Roman, and thus Western, sphere-- which enabled Christianity to diffuse into the Roman Empire and thus into Europe, when it otherwise would have been unknown on that Continent, an obscure Western Asian creed. The Hellenistic period and that enormous cultural influx from the Greco-Persian fusion, which defined much of Classical Europe and a chunk of Persia, came out of his conquests. Spread of Greek koine as a lingua franca in general (crucial later for the European Renaissance and the Scientific Revolution, among other things). Alexander conquered Babylon and thereby spread the Babylonian numerical system eastward, which was the first to use the zero as a number (later went back west to Europe from India and the Arab lands), and which used the bizarre sexagesimal system (the 60-second minute and 60-minute hour). Alexander was also the major explorer of the period and opened an enormous number of trade routes, with his coinage and many names of cities (e.g., Kandahar, Alexandria in Egypt) stemming from his movements throughout that territory. He was also unique for his day in not slaughtering the conquered people and instead, encouraging a degree of rapport among the Greeks/Macedonians and Persians-- again, crucial for the cultural cross-currents that followed.

Britain comes after this-- indeed very important, but nowhere near the most powerful. Had Britain just avoided the bloodbath of 1914, I suspect we'd still have a big and quite powerful British Empire today, but they made a fatal mistake for their imperial ambitions by joining that and being basically bled dry and utterly bankrupted by the German legions in that bloody conflict.
 
thedevilsreject said:
although china is a country now it did use to be an empire made up of several provinces

Exactly. China is now a country but it evolved very directly from the vast empire it had been before. One of the reasons China is so vast, populous and strong is that it had been such a powerful empire before, and no other country has retained so many of the basic administrative, infrastructural, even linguistic (the characters) and monetary (basic coinage) features that were introduced when Qin Shi Huangdi founded it in 221 B.C.
 
Ganymede said:
British Empire. By far, they colonized S. Africa, Taiwan, India, America, Canada, Europe, the middle east. Romans never controlled that much territory.

Britain never colonized Taiwan-- that was the Dutch in the 1600's, then of course the Japanese after the Sino-Japanese War in 1895.

Again, Britain certainly had a lot of territory (as the Mongols did-- even more in square kilometers in fact), but the British Empire was nowhere near as durable or influential as e.g. the ancient Roman or the Spanish Empires, let alone the "big-league" players-- China and the Arab/Islamic Empire of Muhammad and Umar Ibn al-Khattab. These empires lasted half a millennium or even two millennia or more (to the present day in modified form) in many cases compared to about 200 years for Britain, and have *fundamentally defined* the culture, lifestyle, and government of half a billion or over a billion people.

The US is certainly a large, powerful and populous superpower, but remember, over 80% of US territory was never in the British Empire-- it was obtained by the USA after the American Revolution against Britain, from the French, Spanish, Mexicans and Russians, by purchase or by war (e.g. Louisiana and Alaska Purchases, Mexican War). The US was in fact a competitor against Britain-- culturally, economically, militarily and politically-- during the period of US expansion, which often occurred at British expense, e.g. Oregon and Washington. Outside of the US, the British had settler colonies in the Anglophone part of Canada, Australia and New Zealand but these today number only about 50 million people in generally forbidding territory. Outside of here, British influence in its former colonies is modest as explained before-- even in India (which was the principal British colony and one of the longest-lasting), the pre-British influences far predominate over the British ones, in contrast to e.g. Latin American countries.
 
I'd have to say Rome for it's durability and the subjugation of so many hostile, and comparably strong, peoples.

Either that, or The Arab/Islamic Empire at it's extent, but not continuing afterwards as separate political entities. This is, of course, not only for it's massive size, but for the complete reording of Middle Eastern/Central Asian/North African culture which came along with it.

In my mind, Rome and Islam are on equal playing fields, although in some areas one predominates over the other.

China, of course, is up there. The reason why I wouldn't place China over Rome or Islam is because most of the Chinese lands were Chinese, although politically separate until unification. It's an impressive achievement, but mainly for it's longevity. I give more to Rome or Islam because they subjugated so many completely alien peoples, and then culturally assimilated them so thoroughly that there were no challengers to their power any longer. China never seemed to have any highly organized, state-structured enemies to worry about. Nomads were powerful and much to contend with, but the Nomads always became Chinese after their conquests. The Chinese were never under threat of being assimilated by anyone else.

Rome was under this threat several times. They had to contend with Greek influences, mostly, but Hannibal almost brought Rome down altogether. Towards the end, of course, they succumbed, but instead of being overwhelmed culturally, they mixed with their conquerors.

Islam spread too rapidly to be under this kind of threat, which is why I usually place Rome higher on my list. Rome went through a baptism of fire to get where it ended up. Islam was the fire, and few cultures survived.
 
If China continue to grow as it does, it will definately be an empire, and the most powerful empire ever. What makes China unique is

Which other empire has 1/3 of the world's population
Which other empire has the largest circulated language of its own(mandarin)
Which other empire has a history older than all other empires
Which other empire has an economy that if failed, can set the world market ino a global depression
Which other empire can dominate independently,i.e no influence
Which other empire can regulate a dual economy, an economy fully self contained and an open economy.
 
Chatha said:
If China continue to grow as it does, it will definately be an empire, and the most powerful empire ever. What makes China unique is

Which other empire has 1/3 of the world's population
Which other empire has the largest circulated language of its own(mandarin)
Which other empire has a history older than all other empires
Which other empire has an economy that if failed, can set the world market ino a global depression
Which other empire can dominate independently,i.e no influence
Which other empire can regulate a dual economy, an economy fully self contained and an open economy.
Chatha, I think you're confusing a massive Nation-State with an Empire. Empire's are composed of many peoples, and culturally diverse. China has been culturally homogeneous for it's entire history, which is why most people wouldn't classify it as an "Empire".
 
Karl:
So, you have 1763-1948 for the British Empire-- not all that much compared to Rome, with less land but much longer durability, less than Spain which had more land *and* more durability (and quite a cultural legacy), and nowhere in the same league as China and the ancient Arab Empires, with both a tremendous amount of land area and durability, and an unparalleled cultural legacy.
I loved your posts!

However, many would feel that the British Empire was superior to China, simply because China was Britain's bitch during the 1800's. Britain and the other European powers pretty much had a free hand in China during the 1800's and 1900's. Witness the Opium Wars, and the Boxer Rebellion.
 
mountainhare said:
Karl:

I loved your posts!

However, many would feel that the British Empire was superior to China, simply because China was Britain's bitch during the 1800's. Britain and the other European powers pretty much had a free hand in China during the 1800's and 1900's. Witness the Opium Wars, and the Boxer Rebellion.
By that logic, the Goths were superior to Rome because the Goths made Rome their bitch during the 5th century.
 
Chatha, I think you're confusing a massive Nation-State with an Empire. Empire's are composed of many peoples, and culturally diverse. China has been culturally homogeneous for it's entire history, which is why most people wouldn't classify it as an "Empire".

Heterogenousity and geographical propagation is arguably the down fall of all empire states. United we stand, divided we fall. The Roman decline was a manifestation of over propagation coupled with heterogenousity, which was exemplified by the division of its empire in two, East and West. Anothing aspect of previous empires was over-dependence over colonial provinces for sustainable wealth, which was characterized by the British empire. Over-dependence creates an economy that moves from equilibrium to a state of far-from-equilibrium, where expectations do not meet reality; then the bubble busts.This is the reason why Britain was operating a stop and go economy from the 40's to late 80's, especialy during Magareth Tacher. Arguablythe best empire is an empire that is self contained and self sufficient. Rep of China is airguably the new breed of empires. I mean 1 in every 6 person on earth is Chinese for goods sake, we should also remember Chinese socio-political influence on Taiwan, Hong King, Malasia, and many Pacific islands of the region.Perharps its time we revaluate the definition of an empire state.
 
A large country is not an empire.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=25416&dict=CALDempire said:
(COUNTRIES) Show phonetics
noun [C]
a group of countries ruled by a single person, government or country:
the Holy Roman Empire
See also imperial (EMPIRE).
 
LOL and what has happened to all those empires now? That is just some dictionary's idea but has not addressed the idiom. Tell me how what has destroyed empires in most cases can also be the main constituents behind the idea? I agree with you in the most part but China is most definately an empire. But tell me, have you seen any country that does not have Chinese food or use Chinese products(gun powder, silk, martial arts, and even some argue democracy were chinese inventions)? Maybe a lot of us will not be speaking Chinese but arguably that is the beauty of China; they don't need that, they have enough people for that. If the Brits, Romans, or Egyptians had a billion people to themselves do you think they would bother about how many people speak their language? Do you really think they will stretch their resources and culture for others? All empires are basically dependent on other provinces to further their influence and power; America went to Africa to bring Africans to develop the state and that was the beginning of lost identity.
 
I wonder where the Jewish Empire stands in all this! Has any historic aristocracy or power-elite ever held sway over a greater domain than that controlled by the present matrix of Jewish bankers, media moguls, property barons, industrial plutocrats and oligarchs?

Not without reason is the USA known as “Israel West”, whilst Jewish ownership or control of the media extends to most of the English-speaking world, and the majority of the great oligarchs controlling the great wealth of a resurgent resource-rich Russia are Jewish. Even the most unlikely countries seem to harbour wealthy and influential Jews, or branches of international Jewish businesses.

The Emperors of old must be considered the poor relations of the Rothschilds, Bronfmans, Guggenheims, Warburgs, etc. The word Empire suggests tentacles of power reaching out afar; that, I think, is why we may speak of Empire in relation to the Jews, but not in relation to P R China.
 
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China does not consist of more than one country.
China does not even have an emperor.

You are mistaking influence for empire.

The British Empire very nearly had a billion people to itself....and is the reason why americans, Canadians, Australians, Indians, New Zealanders etc. all speak english, and if you want to get anywhere today you have to learn english, just like the reason english and all european languages are littered with latin was the Romans. Can't say the same for the Chinese languages.

"america" is not and has never been an empire.

You clearly don't understand the difference between a country and an empire.

edit: Woohoo! 1000 posts.
 
China does not consist of more than one country.
China used to be smaller before kingdoms ate up neighboring kingdoms and grew to what it is today. Look up the history of china. But what do you mean by "more than one country". It seems to me that Britian did not consist of more than one country as well.
China does not even have an emperor.
Used to, but that is not relevant to its current political systems.

You are mistaking influence for empire.
LOL How do you think the British managed to forge an empire. And where their influenced failed they waged out and out war (war of 1812). The Romans weren't particular about infleunce, they came in and got what they needed by extortion and war, though they later tried to pretend they were more educated and sophisticated.

The British Empire very nearly had a billion people to itself....and is the reason why americans, Canadians, Australians, Indians, New Zealanders etc. all speak english, and if you want to get anywhere today you have to learn english, just like the reason english and all european languages are littered with latin was the Romans. Can't say the same for the Chinese languages
. No, the british never had a billion people to itself because they were not citizens. Try not to be stupid, how many of those billion people were citizens loyal to the state? This is what I was talking about; state of far-from-equilibrium.

"america" is not and has never been an empire.
Now you are contradicting yourself. More people speak American English around the world than pure English, and more people see themselves as Americans than British. So why is it no more an empire?

You clearly don't understand the difference between a country and an empire.
Let me get this straight. An empire to you is any state that manages to make people speak their language. This is where you are in denial. You have to influence people enough for them to speak the language of the state, either by force, ideas, culture, or politics. A country is an empire, an empire without a country is an organism without a head. So country and empire are the same thing in terms of entelech.

edit: Woohoo! 1000 posts.
 
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I wonder where the Jewish Empire stands in all this! Has any historic aristocracy or power-elite ever held sway over a greater domain than that controlled by the present matrix of Jewish bankers, media moguls, property barons, industrial plutocrats and oligarchs.

Not without reason is the USA known as “Israel West”, whilst Jewish ownership or control of the media extends to most of the English-speaking world, and the majority of the great oligarchs controlling the great wealth of a resurgent resource-rich Russia are Jewish. Even the most unlikely countries seem to harbour wealthy and influential Jews, or branches of international Jewish businesses.

The Emperors of old must be considered the poor relations of the Rothschilds, Bronfmans, Guggenheims, Warburgs, etc. The word Empire suggests tentacles of power reaching out afar; that, I think, is why we may speak Empire in relation to the Jews, but not in relation to P R China.
Yep,it seems you are more in tuned with realty my friend. The world has changed from the past. Gone are the days when an empire was determined by how many states spoke a language. The world is too sophisticated for "Old Empires". I wouldn't quite say the jewish state is an empire but then again it controls most of the media and uses the U.S as a political proxy; all the foundations for an empire. But I don't think the jews are interested in out and out take over, they know that will not be in their favor and are fine with what they have. They are okay with pulling the strings behind the curtain. An ememy you can't see you can't destroy.
 
Chatha said:
China used to be smaller before kingdoms ate up neighboring kingdoms and grew to what it is today. Look up the history of china. But what do you mean by "more than one country". It seems to me that Britian did not consist of more than one country as well.
China used to be chopped up into smaller kingdoms, but all of those kingdoms were culturally Chinese. Empires have to do with multiple cultures, not multiple states. You should look up the history of China.

Also, the British Empire certainly was made up of more than one country. The U.K., India, Canada, Australia, dozens of African states, huge swathes of land in China at a certain point, etc... You should look up the history of the British Empire.

No, the british never had a billion people to itself because they were not citizens. Try not to be stupid, how many of those billion people were citizens loyal to the state?
Firstly, you're right. Britain never had almost a billion people under it's power, but this is irrelevant. Empires do not need every person under their sway to be loyal to them, and they certainly don't need all those people to be part of the citizenry. By this logic, no empire that has every been considered an empire would, in fact, be an empire. Empire has to do with influence, no cohesion. Cultural influence and political control, mostly loose political control but sometimes direct, as in th e case of British India.

Now you are contradicting yourself. More people speak American English around the world than pure English, and more people see themselves as Americans than British. So why is it no more an empire?
I would contend that the United States is an empire because American culture is so prevalent around the world that there are very few people who are unfamiliar with very common American cultural ideas. At one time, Britain was like this. It really has nothing to do with how many people speak a particular language. It doesn't even really have to do with how many people are under your power. It has to do with dominion over a vast array of disparate cultures.

Let me get this straight. An empire to you is any state that manages to make people speak their language. This is where you are in denial. You have to influence people enough for them to speak the language of the state, either by force, ideas, culture, or politics. A country is an empire, an empire without a country is an organism without a head. So country and empire are the same thing in terms of entelech.
A country is not an empire, because a single country is not made up of many countries by definition. A country may have an empire, but it cannot be an empire. Modern China does not qualify because it does not culturally or politically dominate the region any longer. In fact, right now, I'd say the only real empire is the one that belongs to America. America has a great deal of political and economic control over the entire world, and American culture is more widespread around the globe than any other.
 
China used to be chopped up into smaller kingdoms, but all of those kingdoms were culturally Chinese. Empires have to do with multiple cultures, not multiple states.
Thats arguable

Also, the British Empire certainly was made up of more than one country. The U.K., India, Canada, Australia, dozens of African states, huge swathes of land in China at a certain point, etc... You should look up the history of the British Empire.
When Britain first occupied these countries they(colonies) did not have a proper constitution, they suffered political unrest, and were very diverse in socio-cultural norms themselves. So you can hardly call them states. A good example is America, they only drew the constituion after they dispelled the british. Nonetheless I agree with you for the most part.

Firstly, you're right. Britain never had almost a billion people under it's power, but this is irrelevant. Empires do not need every person under their sway to be loyal to them, and they certainly don't need all those people to be part of the citizenry
Yes, and what has happened to all those empires now? There is strength is unity. When the West first left Iraq they created an artificial state of Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites. This caused a great deal of problems and contributed to why Saddam had to rely on fear to hold things together, and now that Saddam is gone we are back at square one. So you have to ask yourself, if you can't sustain a divided country amicably how can you sustain a divided empire? The reason why America is successful in terms of empire is that they are not interested in a single Identity unlike thier predecessor, in America everything is fair game. But where Iraq ruled by fear the U.S ruled by law. There is a law for everything in the U.S; from digging for dandruff in your hair to smelling the fresh air in your house. In fact the U.S quite easily has the most laws in the world.
 
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You don't need to have a constitution to be a state. You are intellectually unfit to be arguing in this topic. You can't even handle basic english grammar.

The USA is not an empire because:

1) A democracy cannot be an empire unless it starts out as an empire.
2) You need to overtly control either a considerable amount of land outside of your own borders or a number of conquered states to be an empire
3) Culture and influence, which are things that help to MAKE an empire, do not by themselves make up an empire (if you can even call 50 cent and spelling everything wrong culture) which is something you clearly don't understand. I can buy a computer with some cash but I cannot type "you are an unimaginable buffoon" on that cash, like I can on this computer, you unimaginable buffoon.

Consult a dictionary with regards to the definition of "empire" before you make your next post please.
 
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