Mind Brain

Xmo1

Xmo1

Registered Senior Member
I've seen a bunch of different attributions for "The mind is what the brain does." I read it in Francis Crick's 1994 book "The Astonishing Hypothesis."

The brain sits at the top of a super-microorganism. The human brain is not the only brain, although to say that the human brain is not the only type of brain would be inaccurate. Biology, life it is said has imperatives. It must survive and procreate. Most microorganisms do not have a brain, and yet fulfill these imperatives without one.

I've got this persistent idea that the brain is in control. It controls the body. It allows and controls the mind. The brain has it's own volition separate from the mind's volition. The brain may disallow, or even silence a choice made by the mind. Further, the brain may use the body (to do something) with or without the permission or even awareness of the mind.

I look at the mind as 'something' that has a mutual symbiosis with the brain. At some point (in humans) it becomes aware, and yet the brain controls that awareness by allowing it to happen or not. When our mind sleeps our brain continues to operate.

It seems to me that the mind and the brain are different things. The mind is not what the brain does, or if it is then it is only part of what the brain does, but they seem to be two distinct things operating in tandem in separate spheres of influence. They seem to be functionally, and literally different things, although with deep connections to each other. Can I get corrections please?
 
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origin said:
Sure. The mind and the brain are the same thing. That is, our thoughts and perceptions are simply the functioning of the brain.
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Scientists still don't know that for sure.

I read a lot of books about biochemistry, biophysics, genetics, evolutionary biology, human physiology and many others and I get the feeling that scientists still don't know completely how the human body works and why the human body works completely different in different people.
 
pluto2 said:
why the human body works completely different in different people.
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Yeah, yeah, I know you feel pain completely differently from everyone else and life sucks. I am sorry that you feel that way,but frankly this is getting really old, luckily I do not have to listen to it. 'click'
Good bye.
 
origin said:
Sure. The mind and the brain are the same thing. That is, our thoughts and perceptions are simply the functioning of the brain.
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I don't agree. The brain does things over which the mind has no knowledge or influence. If you look it up they are synonyms in some cases, but if you read the literature the brain functions in four modes. I think this analogy is also in Crick's book. Your hand is near a stove burner. The brain can let your hand burn, and not tell you. It can remove your hand, and not tell you. It can let you know that your hand is near the burner, and let you remove it. It can let you know your hand is near the burner, and not allow you to remove it. This tells me that the brain and the mind are not the same things.

The mind seems to be given permission to operate, but only within the parameters that the brain allows. That is, the mind cannot act contrary to the brain, because the brain can shut it down before it can act. Further, the brain can act (use the body, maybe out of the purpose to survive and procreate), without the knowledge and/or consent of the mind.

I see the brain (much) more as the supervisor of the body, whereas the mind has a lesser, but distinct role as a brain function. Could the two be separated? Not physically. That is saying that they are only one thing. But I think that functionally they are quite different, and so could be viewed as two separate things within one corpus having blood vessels, and other such structures in common.
 
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I think you hit it in the OP. Mind is only part of what the brain does. There are many autonomic functions which the brain controls that the mind cannot (and should not) be bothered with.

Mind is a function of the brain.
 
gmilam said:
I think you hit it in the OP. Mind is only part of what the brain does. There are many autonomic functions which the brain controls that the mind cannot (and should not) be bothered with.

Mind is a function of the brain.
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Volition - Will. Are there two? Does the brain and mind each have individual volition(s)? Are there two personalities within the brain? The mind say's, I want to do this. The brain says, Oh no you don't. (or rather simply acts to prevent it).
 
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Since I read the book (Crick's), I've thought this should be a primary concern for the Judicial system, that our brain can act without our permission or knowledge. To prosecute someone for something beyond their control is injustice. Not to even consider the mind brain relationship in the basic workings of the justice system is negligence at best and failure at worst. I think it should be given deep attention by justice and the legislature in concert with neuroscience.

Why? Accountability. Companies who's products alter or bring harm to people should be held accountable much less than people who have no knowledge or understanding of the affects caused by these products. Mind brain considerations are almost never a matter in court, and for good reason. Mind brain relationships were not known when the laws were written.

Laws, just like national infrastructure, must be kept current, and in good working order. Probably laws even more so than infrastructure, because they directly influence more people everyday. It's past time to update American jurisprudence with the knowledge that we have today.
 
gmilam said:
In fact there is evidence that the brain has already made it's decision before we are consciously aware of it.

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
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Wouldn't that be saying that the seat of volition is in the brain, and that the mind really does not make decisions? If the brain decides, how then is the Justice system determining guilt? This points to repair of malfunctioning brain chemistry as a solution for crime, when we know that most of the problem is due to economics.
 
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Xmo1 said:
Wouldn't that be saying that the seat of volition is in the brain, and that the mind really does not make decisions? If the brain decides, how then is the Justice system determining guilt? This points to repair of malfunctioning brain chemistry as a solution for crime, when we know that most of the problem is due to economics.
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You are still stuck in the notion that they are separate things. They are not. Mind is a function of the brain.
 
I divide it up as follows

Brain :- the grey sloppy porridge looking physical structure

within which the

Mind :- the storage system holds memory and operating systems from which the

Brain :- draws the information from which decessions are made and actions taken

That is a simplified version

Co-existing is a automated system which can operate (hand on hot stove) when sending such signal to the brain would take to long

And a system which can operate to keep the overall housekeeping functions going (heartbeat - stomach acidity - blood oxygen content)

The maker forgot to make the system modular and no plans for upgrading each module due to wear and tear and improvements

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
I divide it up as follows

Brain :- the grey sloppy porridge looking physical structure

within which the

Mind :- the storage system holds memory and operating systems from which the

Brain :- draws the information from which decessions are made and actions taken

That is a simplified version

Co-existing is a automated system which can operate (hand on hot stove) when sending such signal to the brain would take to long

And a system which can operate to keep the overall housekeeping functions going (heartbeat - stomach acidity - blood oxygen content)

The maker forgot to make the system modular and no plans for upgrading each module due to wear and tear and improvements

:)
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The brain isn't a computer and the body isn't a machine or robot. The "mind" isn't a separate thing. It's consciousness and that appears to be a chemical process with greater concentrations of certain kinds of neurons in certain parts of the brain.

Memory isn't memory in the sense of computer memory. It just doesn't work that way. Memory is reconstructed each time and from many different areas of the brain.
 
Seattle said:
The brain isn't a computer and the body isn't a machine or robot. The "mind" isn't a separate thing. It's consciousness and that appears to be a chemical process with greater concentrations of certain kinds of neurons in certain parts of the brain.

Memory isn't memory in the sense of computer memory. It just doesn't work that way. Memory is reconstructed each time and from many different areas of the brain.
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Where did i say the brain is a computer?

Or the body a machine or robot?

Where did I compare brain memory with computer memory?


Memory is reconstructed each time and from many different areas of the brain

And this memory reconstruction is assembled from different areas of the brain which :-
  • contain no information about the memory it is going to be part of or
  • contains a segment of the memory it is going to be part of or
  • contains most (even all) of the memory which is being reactivated plus
  • supplemented fragments from other areas
  • which extends the period the memory covers?
The storage of memory certainly resides in the structure of the grey porridge looking organ hence is not separate

I never said it was - I indicated how I define the terms

Mirriam-Webster puts it thus

brain
\ˈbrān\
noun
  • :the organ of the body in the head that controls functions, movements, sensations, and thoughts

mind
\ˈmīnd\
noun
  • :the part of a person that thinks, reasons, feels, and remembers
***"

Take your pick

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
Where did i say the brain is a computer?

Or the body a machine or robot?

Where did I compare brain memory with computer memory?


Memory is reconstructed each time and from many different areas of the brain

And this memory reconstruction is assembled from different areas of the brain which :-
  • contain no information about the memory it is going to be part of or
  • contains a segment of the memory it is going to be part of or
  • contains most (even all) of the memory which is being reactivated plus
  • supplemented fragments from other areas
  • which extends the period the memory covers?
The storage of memory certainly resides in the structure of the grey porridge looking organ hence is not separate

I never said it was - I indicated how I define the terms

Mirriam-Webster puts it thus

brain
\ˈbrān\
noun
  • :the organ of the body in the head that controls functions, movements, sensations, and thoughts

mind
\ˈmīnd\
noun
  • :the part of a person that thinks, reasons, feels, and remembers
***"

Take your pick

:)
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Your descriptions sound a lot like those things. "Mind" a storage system apart from the brain. Or talking about the maker forgetting to make things modular and not upgradable.
 
Seattle said:
Your descriptions sound a lot like those things. "Mind" a storage system apart from the brain. Or talking about the maker forgetting to make things modular and not upgradable.
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Look at Mirriam-Webster definition. It looks more like Mirriam-Webster has seperated mind and brain with part

Storage system relates to the chemical / electrical method used in memory storage

Or talking about the maker forgetting to make things modular and not upgradable

Your ability not to recognise a joke is noted

:)
 
Seattle said:
By "mind" do you mean "consciousness"?
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I roll with the dictionary definition, and you can see from Michael 345's post the definitions point to a clear difference between their functions. Consciousness is a state of mind.
 
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