meaning...more or less?

Randall Patrick

Registered Member
In a world without God meaning more or less revolves around whatever we think it does. At least respecting the most important chunks of human interaction. Moral and political interaction, for example. There is no way to demonstrate whether your own ethical values and convictions are Right or Wrong. There can only be an exchange of opinions regarding how we see things from our own existential vantage point.

Take the issue of abortion. Is it right or wrong to kill a human fetus? Well, that depends on how you construe the metaphysical nature of the fetus. Is it or is it not a human being? Some say yes, some say no...and some say it depends on variables like viability. But there is no way to calulcate any of this except as a subjective point of view. You're right from your side [given your assumptions] and I'm right from mine [given my assumptions].

And this is true of every other moral and political issue. Anything can to rationalized as good or bad. After all, Hitler rationalized the extermination of an entire race, didn't he? And look what the Commmunist rationalized respecting ends and means. And look what George W. Bush continues to rationalize in Iraq.

Besides, we all die in the end anyway and, for each of us one by one, all of this becomes moot for...well...eternity?

Randall Patrick
 
Interesting development of thought.
Pretty general though.
If you have not yet decided that you have come to your absolute conviction of "what is" and cannot be any other way, based on the information and resources you have come across so far, let me share my opinions with you merely for something to do.
What is right or wrong, being human, is not subjective and arbitrary.
Just because you beleive that the sun revolves around the earth does not make it so. You have just not come across the resources and info.
That of what is actually real.
There are natural laws.Truths.Facts that cannot be altered by mere wishes or because one beleives it to be.
Because of this, there are objective truths to live and guide your life by.
Just because you choose to ignore the truth, will not change it.
Choose to ignore gravity all you want while jumping out of a ten story building.
Won't change a thing.........splat. :D
But if you do choose to look at truth, and build a heirachal structure of thought based on reality, you must begin with what is truth, or real, and be able to define it.
Once you are able to ground yourself in the fundamental truths of existence, you can then begin to build a philosophy grounded in reality.
A truth, or an axiom can be desrcibed as such....

An axiom is an irreducible primary. It doesn't rest upon anything in order to be valid, and it cannot be proven by any "more basic" premises. A true axiom can not be refuted because the act of trying to refute it requires that very axiom as a premise. An attempt to contradict an axiom can only end in a contradiction.

The term "axiom" has been abused in many different ways, so it is important to distinguish the proper definition from the others. The other definitions amount to calling any arbitrary postulate an 'axiom'. The famous example of this is Euclidean geometry. Euclid was a Greek mathematician who applied deductive logic to a few postulates, which he called axioms. In this sense, "axiom" was used to mean a postulate which one was sure was true. Later, though, it was shown that his postulates were sometimes false, and so the conclusions he made were equally false. The "axiom" he used was basing his geometry on a two dimensional plane. When his work was applied to the surface of a sphere, though, it broke down. A triangle's three angles add up to 180 degrees on a plane; they do not add up to 180 degrees on the surface of a sphere. The point is that Euclid's "axioms" were actually postulates.

True axioms are more solid than that. They are not statements we merely believe to be true; they are statements that we cannot deny without using them in our denial. Axioms are the foundation of all knowledge. There are only a few axioms that have been identified. These are: Existence Exists, The Law of Identity, and Consciousness.

This post could easily become quite long because of my lust for life, but Let me keep this as basic as possible for you to nibble on.

In life you have only one choice....to live, or not to live.
If you decide to live, then....
Choosing to live is a pre-moral choice, after which, the question becomes "How?" This is the same as "What do I do?" One can either go about it randomly or with a methodology designed for success. That methodology is called morality.

An explicit morality allows one to choose rationally among values. It makes the selection of values rational by providing a method to evaluate them. Values are compared to a moral standard, and prioritized according to how well they promote that standard. To make decisions easier, we develop virtues which are moral habits which tend to help gain values.

Historically, the concept of morality has often been used negatively as a list of thou shall not's in check against ones actions. The stance taken is often that it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you don't violate any moral edicts; but the source of these moral edicts is often mystical or arbitrary.

A list of prohibitions, even if founded in reason rather than mysticism, is not a sufficient outline for success. Morality should be positive rather than negative. Not What shouldn't I do? but What should I do?. The problem with defining morality negatively is that pretty much anything goes provided one avoids a few problem areas. This is not useful because within the sphere of pretty much anything goes, there is no methodical way to choose which action is best, whereas positive morality sets forth habits which lead to the achievement of values and methods for choosing what to value which is the way to live and thrive.

With ones own life as the standard of value, morality is not a burden to bear, but a prudent and effective guide which furthers life and success.

And as for abortion, whether it should be legal for a woman to terminate her pregnancy, highlights the question of who has rights and why do they have them. On one side of the debate the argument goes that a woman owns her own body (right to life) and has the right to do whatever she pleases to it. On the other side holds that the growing fetus within the woman is not actually her property to do with as she pleases and itself has the right to life and, morally, can not be aborted. The two main issues to tackle are:
1) does the fetus have rights, and
2) if so, does it also have the right to remain in the womb against the mothers wishes.

To analyze whether or not the fetus has rights, we must go back to what specifically are rights and why men in general possess rights. Rights define the guidelines for social interaction between rational people. They allow society to exist by banning the initiation of force between rational men. A fetus does not act, let alone act rationally. There is no reason to recognize fetal rights. Rights are not arbitrary handed out by edicts, they are corollaries of an entity's nature.

Even if a fetus did have rights, would it have the right to stay in its mothers womb against her wishes? The answer is no. There are no unchosen obligations or duties. If a woman does not want a fetus inside her she may use any means necessary to force it out just as she would force an unwelcome visitor in her house. Even if you invite a visitor in, you still have the right to ask him to leave.

There is very little grounds to rationally argue for a ban on abortions. Almost all "pro-lifers" get their bloody politics from their evil ethics which come from their irrational epistemology which comes from their mystical metaphysics which they call religion.
Fuck I'm awesome!
 
moementum7 said:
<<<What is right or wrong, being human, is not subjective and arbitrary.
Just because you beleive that the sun revolves around the earth does not make it so. You have just not come across the resources and info.
That of what is actually real.
There are natural laws.Truths.Facts that cannot be altered by mere wishes or because one beleives it to be.
Because of this, there are objective truths to live and guide your life by.
Just because you choose to ignore the truth, will not change it.
Choose to ignore gravity all you want while jumping out of a ten story building.
Won't change a thing.........splat.>>>

My point, however, is to differentiate that which can be construed by natural science as objectively true from that which cannot be so construed respecting conjectures from ethicists regarding human moral interactions. Medical doctors, for example, can express in great detail how to perform an abortion as a medical procedure. And then obstretricians anywhere in the world [be they Christians or Islamics or Marxists or Objectivists or Liberals or Conservatives or gay or straight or men or wmen or left-handed or right-handed] can then use that procedure to effectively abort a human fetus. But how would a moral philosopher encompass abortion in terms of it being either right or wrong? How would her arguement be framed such that moral philosophers anywhere in the world will embrace the argument as logically and rationally true? She can't, of course.


<<<An axiom is an irreducible primary. It doesn't rest upon anything in order to be valid, and it cannot be proven by any "more basic" premises. A true axiom can not be refuted because the act of trying to refute it requires that very axiom as a premise. An attempt to contradict an axiom can only end in a contradiction.>>>

Name a single axiom respecting human moral interactions. And then demostrate that the definion of the words used to express it are not just tautologies.


<<<In life you have only one choice....to live, or not to live.
If you decide to live, then....
Choosing to live is a pre-moral choice, after which, the question becomes "How?" This is the same as "What do I do?" One can either go about it randomly or with a methodology designed for success. That methodology is called morality.>>>

In the absense of god [omniscience], there is no Authentic or Inauthentic manner in which to live. There are only lifestyles that seem reasonable to you or I or another. What you choose to define as a "sucess" in life another may well see as folly. For example you can sit in a room and listen to a Wall Street broker, an Amish farmer, a bohemian artist, a conservative author, a Marxist professor and an Objectivist entrepreneur explain why the lifestyle and ethical values they chose are the most rational and fulfilling. And there is no philosophical calculus you can use to "prove" which point of view is the Most Logically or Epistemologically sound.


<<<<And as for abortion, whether it should be legal for a woman to terminate her pregnancy, highlights the question of who has rights and why do they have them. On one side of the debate the argument goes that a woman owns her own body (right to life) and has the right to do whatever she pleases to it. On the other side holds that the growing fetus within the woman is not actually her property to do with as she pleases and itself has the right to life and, morally, can not be aborted. The two main issues to tackle are:
1) does the fetus have rights, and
2) if so, does it also have the right to remain in the womb against the mothers wishes.

To analyze whether or not the fetus has rights, we must go back to what specifically are rights and why men in general possess rights. Rights define the guidelines for social interaction between rational people. They allow society to exist by banning the initiation of force between rational men. A fetus does not act, let alone act rationally. There is no reason to recognize fetal rights. Rights are not arbitrary handed out by edicts, they are corollaries of an entity's nature.

Even if a fetus did have rights, would it have the right to stay in its mothers womb against her wishes? The answer is no. There are no unchosen obligations or duties. If a woman does not want a fetus inside her she may use any means necessary to force it out just as she would force an unwelcome visitor in her house. Even if you invite a visitor in, you still have the right to ask him to leave.

There is very little grounds to rationally argue for a ban on abortions. Almost all "pro-lifers" get their bloody politics from their evil ethics which come from their irrational epistemology which comes from their mystical metaphysics which they call religion.
Fuck I'm awesome!

No, you are not awesome. Instead, you are an Objectivist, aren't you? Ethics are not only Rational or Irrational...they are also Good or Evil? Rand postulated the acorn theory of abortion. The fetus is only a potential human being. And she posited this rationale as though it really could be expressed as the Most Rational way to think---instead of just a syllogistic device whereby the definition of the words used in the premise of the argument were merely presumed, in fact, to be expressing reality axiomatically. Yet anyone can easily offer a conflicting and contradictory argument. For example, it can be argued that human life is a continuum from conception until death. That, as a consequence, no one can arbitrarily suggest axiomatically "before this point, not human...after this point, human". Says who? Just as there is not a single living oak tree anywhere on the planet that did not start out as an acorn, so there is not a single living human being that did not NECESSARILY start out as a fetus. It is irrational then to speak of a potential human being without acknowledging the need for the fetus not to have been aborted. And, in fact, had Rand's mother chosen to abort her we would almost certainly not be having this dicussion at all, would we?

Randall Patrick
 
Me, not awesome?
Wow, now that you mention it, fuck, I'm incredibly awesome!
Thanks for noticing and pointing that out :D
I owe you one big guy. ;)
Nope, not an objectivist sorry, I'm a sagitarious.
Ayn who?
So your anti abortion, fine.
So what you are saying is that you choose not to take a stand on either side of an issue at hand in the experience of your own life, but rather speculate upon the choices of others, sit on the fence, and just perpetuate the notion that as long as there is more than one person, there may be conflicting ideas.
Wow, brilliant.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I can live with that.
Bottom line, this isn't an issue for the world to solve, it's about you making up your own mind.
Always has been, always will be.
Not awesome, sheesh.
You better get off the pipe :m: my intelligent freind.
 
moementum7 said:
Me, not awesome?
<<<Wow, now that you mention it, fuck, I'm incredibly awesome!
Thanks for noticing and pointing that out :D
I owe you one big guy. ;)
Nope, not an objectivist sorry, I'm a sagitarious.
Ayn who?
So your anti abortion, fine.<<<

Not an Objectivist, eh? Right, and neither is Leonard Peikoff. ; )

No, I am not opposed to abortion. I just believe that aborting a fetus is the killing of a human being. In other words, I do not construe it to be murder.

How then do I justifiy the killing of a human being? Well, we do it all the time, don't we? Only we call it things like war or capital punishment. Every 24 hours, for example, WHO estimates that nearly 20,000 children age 5 years and younger will die of starvation. And some see this as a direct result of a global economy whereby 15% of the world's richest folks gobble up over 80% of the world's resources on any given day. Over 3,000,000,000 men, women and children around the globe live on $2 a day or less. This in a world where the American Congress pays Big Buckmeisters in agribusiness [who finance their campaigns] NOT to grow crops in order to inflate prices; this in a world where restaurants throw enough food into dumpsters each day to feed every starving person on the planet ten times over.

Is THAT murder?



<<<So what you are saying is that you choose not to take a stand on either side of an issue at hand in the experience of your own life, but rather speculate upon the choices of others, sit on the fence, and just perpetuate the notion that as long as there is more than one person, there may be conflicting ideas.>>>

No, like most folks, I take an existential leap on virtually every moral conflagration. I just don't try to delude myself that how I view things is the ONLY rational or ethical way in which TO view it. Also, I like to point out that most ethical agendas have far less to do with moral philosophy and far more to do with political economy---with power. In other words, having a moral opinion and being able to enforce it are important distinctions to be made in a world where those with the economic and political and military power are generally the ones with the might to say what is or is not right.

RP
 
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