Karen

[exchemist]

For the record, because I can see how there might have been some confusion:

I had no idea you were a person of colour, let alone black in particular, until you drew attention to it right here in this thread, on this very page. Your colour has never come up in any post of your I've ever read. It honestly never occurred to me what your ethnicity might be. That is the truth.

The reason I was interested in your opinion was because I know you are a woman whom I have seen fight against sexism. That is the truth.

Whatever else you might think of me, take the above as the whole truth and nothing but.

I believe you on this Dave.

I had no idea Bells was a person of colour either - and I've been a regular reader of this forum for more than five years. It's simply never come up, so far as I know, on any thread I've read, and there's no reason why it should have, that I can see.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

Bells

I knew you were a woman of colour, or at least I felt I did from things you previously posted.

Yet, did you take offense to the South Park clip I posted? My purpose was going aside and being totally dumb for the sake of being dumb.

And I can't remember even being called "Karen" before.

 

[wegs]

The problem is, it's a caricature - a stereotype. Whenever you put a label on a box and just start throwing people you've never even met into it, you're not doing any good, you're doing harm.


Consider the analogy to "snowflakes" - a reference to bleeding-heart liberals in America. You see a repost of a repost of repost online about some "snowflake's" complaints - so that any real context is lost - and you can simply throw them whole in the box labelled "snowflake." That does not help anyone.

As John Cleese said, of "snowflakes": "Yes I've heard this word. I think sociopaths use it in an attempt to discredit the notion of empathy."

Stereotyping people you've never met, based on twelfth-hand hearsay, is never a good thing.


Even if Bells were right about its origin being rooted in racism (and there is some evidence she hasn't done her homework - see post 55) - a cutesy meme that makes others smile wryly and repost on Facebook is not going to help that cause.

An issue of racism, sexism and classism should not be portrayed glibly - it should be dealt with seriously. A "funny" meme that's ostensibly about racism, sexism and classism is teaching people to be glib about racism, sexism and classism.

I don’t use the term but I know others who have, but they’re not stereotyping; they know the people they’ve called out as “Karen.”

In your OP, you’re asking for our thoughts yet you seem to have a rebuttal for nearly every response. lol

 

[DaveC426913]

I don’t use the term but I know others who have, but they’re not stereotyping; they know the people they’ve called out as “Karen.”

OK, that's good input - good to know.

In your OP, you’re asking for our thoughts yet you seem to have a rebuttal for nearly every response. lol

The things I am rebutting are either
- claims apparently contradicted by evidence,
- flawed arguments, or
- accusations, misrepresentations and ad homs.

Yes, I'm asking for input, but that doesn't mean I forfeit any right to challenge. You know, the ol' idiom "Keep an open mind - but not so open your brains fall out."

 

[billvon]

I don’t use the term but I know others who have, but they’re not stereotyping; they know the people they’ve called out as “Karen.”

I know a woman just like this. Bob cut, blond highlights, asks to speak to the manager. Even had a messy divorce where she got everything. And her name is actually Karen.

 

[DaveC426913]

I know a woman just like this. Bob cut, blond highlights, asks to speak to the manager. Even had a messy divorce where she got everything. And her name is actually Karen.

But most of all, racist, yes?

 

[Bells]

The problem is, it's a caricature - a stereotype. Whenever you put a label on a box and just start throwing people you've never even met into it, you're not doing any good, you're doing harm.


Consider the analogy to "snowflakes" - a reference to bleeding-heart liberals in America. You see a repost of a repost of repost online about some "snowflake's" complaints - so that any real context is lost - and you can simply throw them whole in the box labelled "snowflake." That does not help anyone.

As John Cleese said, of "snowflakes": "Yes I've heard this word. I think sociopaths use it in an attempt to discredit the notion of empathy."

Stereotyping people you've never met, based on twelfth-hand hearsay, is never a good thing.


Even if Bells were right about its origin being rooted in racism (and there is some evidence she hasn't done her homework - see post 55) - a cutesy meme that makes others smile wryly and repost on Facebook is not going to help that cause.

An issue of racism, sexism and classism should not be portrayed glibly - it should be dealt with seriously. A "funny" meme that's ostensibly about racism, sexism and classism is teaching people to be glib about racism, sexism and classism.

Dave, no one thinks Karen is funny. By which I mean people of colour are not amused by Karen, just as they were not amused by Becky, Sally and any other meme used to describe the behaviour Karen now exhibits.

The reason we are not amused by it is because the Karen's of this world can see people lose their jobs or worse, killed.

People are labeled "Karen" when they behave in a way that would identify her as such. Karen is used by people of colour as a way of identifying that someone has behaved in such a way and to also gain control over a narrative that directly affects those of us who are not white.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, no one thinks Karen is funny. By which I mean people of colour are not amused by Karen, just as they were not amused by Becky, Sally and any other meme used to describe the behaviour Karen now exhibits.

The Karen meme is neither seen nor used exclusively by people of colour. And yes, it is frequently used in a humorous context.

That fuzziness between glib humour and dangerous racism may be the very reason the humorous meme is harmful. As I said, it may be teaching people to be glib.

 

[paddoboy]

The Karen meme is neither seen nor used exclusively by people of colour. And yes, it is frequently used in a humorous context.

That fuzziness between glib humour and dangerous racism may be the very reason the humorous meme is harmful. As I said, it may be teaching people to be glib.

If I hadn't made myself clear in my early post, this is the first I had ever heard of any meme in relation to the name " Karen" other then a girls name.
And I also did not ever have any clue whether any other member was black, blue or brindle or just a plain old whitey like me.
I saw the term hillbilly earlier, used by someone.....
I prefer

 

[Beer w/Straw]

I knew you were a woman of colour

Crap!

That sounds nuanced racism itself.

 

[Bells]

The Karen meme is neither seen nor used exclusively by people of colour.

I did not say that it was...

So I don't understand why you feel the need to reiterate this.

As I noted before, Dave, that my query to you when you started this thread and then sought my input was why you are so intent on portraying Karen as a victim and why you left out the experiences and usage of the meme by people of colour when dealing with "Karen". You have kept saying you have not deemed her to be a victim, but your arguments say otherwise.

I gave you the perception and use of Karen from the standpoint of people of colour. I also linked you numerous articles to describe why "Karen" is not a slur and the current debate on social media, driven by someone who would qualify as "Karen" and then was picked up and spread by a right wing troll online, that you identified as the person who spread it - perhaps you had not bothered to read the links that explained how the meme spread and how right wing white supremacist trolls had a huge hand in making the very arguments and options in your poll..

And yes, it is frequently used in a humorous context.

And?

So was Becky, Karen and Sharon and various other names in the past. I believe the male version is Brad or perhaps
Chad..

Then we have things like "Boomer" for example? Do you go around asking if it's a slur in the same way?

 

[DaveC426913]

I did not say that it was...

So I don't understand why you feel the need to reiterate this.

You said "no one thinks Karen is funny". That is simply not true.
Clearly, it needs to be pointed out.




I will read the links provided to get a better insight.

 

[Bells]

You said "no one thinks Karen is funny". That is simply not true.
Clearly, it needs to be pointed out.

Just as it clearly needs to be pointed out that you are changing the context of my responses to you and what I was addressing and applying it to something else altogether.

 

[C C]

I knew you were a woman of colour

Crap!

That sounds nuanced racism itself.

To sprinkle yet more condiment on the "Why are (white?) people chiming in that they didn't know or did know?" Harold Lloyd Safety Last acrobatics ... I even knew despite being one who only reads a tiny fraction of what's been posted in here over the years. Take that! (swish, swish)

 

[DaveC426913]

Just as it clearly needs to be pointed out that you are changing the context of my responses to you and what I was addressing and applying it to something else altogether.

Funny, that's what you're doing to me. Paragraph after paragraph where you assign to me all sorts of horrible crimes and transgressions.

 

[billvon]

But most of all, racist, yes?

Not so much. Very pre-judgy though.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

To sprinkle yet more condiment on the "Why are (white?) people chiming in that they didn't know or did know?" Harold Lloyd Safety Last acrobatics ... I even knew despite being one who only reads a tiny fraction of what's been posted in here over the years. Take that! (swish, swish)

Bells used the term whitesplain: https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/whitesplain/ which was new to me.

So, thought I'd ask.

 

[DaveC426913]

Not so much. Very pre-judgy though.

Huh. So let me get this straight.
A stereotype - a label - has been applied to this person by someone.

Now, 'Karen' is, incontrovertibly, a term that calls out people who are - among other things - certainly racist. 'Karen' is a useful shorthand for 'privileged and racist' - one wouldn't have to know who this person is - the label lets one know immediately all one needs to know. That's what labels do.

And yet, this person does not appear to be racist, as far as you can tell.


It's almost as if popularizing such stereotyping memes can do harm.




To forestall the inevitable objection: Don't get me wrong - I'm not concerned about harm coming to Karens, I'm concerned about the populace gleefully picking up habits intended to harm in-general.


The NeoNazi skinheads are terrible people, but it does no good to popularize a meme that they are "baby-eaters" - and then freely apply that to any skinhead with a Swastika.


That doesn't make Nazis victims, but the attempt to falsify doesn't reflect well on the rest of us as people. It just makes us more ignorant, and more distant from the issue..

 

[billvon]

Huh. So let me get this straight.
A stereotype - a label - has been applied to this person by someone.

Now, 'Karen' is, incontrovertibly, a term that calls out people who are - among other things - certainly racist.

Wow you're conflating a lot of things here. I suspect you are doing that intentionally to make a point so I won't list them.

 

[DaveC426913]

Wow you're conflating a lot of things here. I suspect you are doing that intentionally to make a point so I won't list them.

Well, yes. But the point isn't aimed at you.

You've provided a counter-example to the implication pervading this thread that 'Karen' and 'racist' are interchangeable.

By your example, they're not necessarily interchangeable. Thus, using the label has the potential to do harm to people who do not deserve it.