Jupiter's Orbital Velocity & Equatorial Velocity cancel?

[nebel]

I am really getting fed up with idiotic posts clogging up the science section.

perhaps it would be best to leave the post[ers] alone?
Can you call the OP idiotic? inviting explanations why the 2 largest planets, over 90% of the planetary mass has matching rotational and orbital velocities? Holding still for photographs every noon?
You are calling every poster, viewer here potentially idiotic?
Fixed id idea people are fascinating, so grin and bear it, better yet, flood this place with your original topics, origin. live up to your name.

 

[Neddy Bate]

It is holding still for a portrait too.

You mean one point on Jupiter's equator is (almost) holding still for the sun to take its portrait. The rest of it is moving at various speeds relative to the sun's camera eye.

Once I took a photo that included a fast moving car on a bridge. In the photo, the car had a bit of motion blur, and the details on the tops of the tires/wheels had even more motion blur than the rest of the car. But the bottoms of the tires/wheels had almost no motion blur, revealing that they were relatively stationary with the road in that short moment of time.

 

[nebel]

Once I took a photo that included a fast moving car on a bridge. In the photo, the car had a bit of motion blur, and the details on the tops of the tires/wheels had even more motion blur than the rest of the car. But the bottoms of the tires/wheels had almost no motion blur, revealing that they were relatively stationary with the road in that short moment of time.

exactly, that is what my reference to the impeccable tire thread mark in new snow in post# 59 refers to. (And the pebbles, or the penetrating puncture -causing nails and screws, that always do their dirty entry at zero contact speed.
The photogenic Big red spot of Jupiter, near the equator comes to mind, even the equatorial rings of Saturn. But there might be more to it than just clearer pictures, as the OP queried. Sleuth are always looking at tracks left behind.
Future fun?--Found another, but void area, in inter -planetary space, - circles where zero velocity imaginary contact would occurs every 584 days !
calling all amateur astronomers: guesses?

 

[nebel]

I don't really see why this fact would be important. All it says is that at any instant a point on the equator of the planet, on the imaginary line joining the Sun to the planet, is approximately at rest as viewed from the Sun.

Yes, but not just from the standpoint of the sun, or the camera persons like Neddy Bate, that get a clear picture of a tire on the road every time they photograph a speeding car.
The point is, that these stationary points in the solar system are really at rest with respect of what could be called the equivalent of all the road systems on Earth, the ~ ecliptic of the solar system.
To make this an allegory:
If the earth [asphalt]surface would be invisible, you could still get the location by looking at all the films, photographs were the wheels are at standstill, but the vehicles are moving, locomotives even, caterpillar tracks the most obvious ,--- that's where the surface is.

 

[Neddy Bate]

Yes, but not just from the standpoint of the sun.

Your portrait of Jupiter in this case is specifically from the standpoint of the sun. If I had taken my photo from an airplane going twice the speed of the car, the top of the wheel (fender area) could have shown without motion blur, and the bottom (road area) could have shown with twice the motion blur. James R is correct, and could certainly instruct you as to why.

 

[nebel]

Your portrait of Jupiter in this case is specifically from the standpoint of the sun. If I had taken my photo from an airplane going twice the speed of the car, the top of the wheel (fender area) could have shown without motion blur, and the bottom (road area) could have shown with twice the motion blur. James R is correct, and could certainly instruct you as to why.

My intent of the OP is to elicit insights how nature works at a deeper level.
Of course you could fly over a FI Ferrari race car ( no fenders for a clear shot) at 2V and freeze the tire tread, or use the stroboscopic effect of a movie camera and do that. But that does not duplicate the natural situation in the ecliptic. There, the orbital velocities decline with distance from the sun. There is no natural speedy camera drone cruising over the cosmic Daytona oval. well,
there is, kind of, google 584 days. and
The Jupiter and Saturn situations, matching 4 vs, is unique, perhaps more than just a co-incidence

 

[nebel]

the bottom (road area) could have shown with twice the motion blur. James R is correct, and could certainly instruct you as to why.

Blur? The winners do that all the time, by braking the front and burning rubber with spinning wheels in the back. The point is ,
Crucial in kinetics here is the reality, where the "rubber hits the road", so to speak, avoiding locking the brakes, spinning on acceleration. (in the cosmic symbolism)
There is something supremely efficient in synchronized zero velocity situations, in transmissions too, so, rather than dispute,
search for areas where nature is doing so well, and why and how. thank you.
Positive criticism is welcome of course, how else can improvements be triggered?

 

[Neddy Bate]

My intent of the OP is to elicit insights how nature works at a deeper level... the natural situation in the ecliptic. There, the orbital velocities decline with distance from the sun.

You are simply choosing the reference frame of the sun, which does make sense when talking about the orbital velocities of the planets in our solar system.

Blur? The winners do that all the time, by braking the front and burning rubber with spinning wheels in the back.

Huh? Braking and burning rubber? Now I don't even know if you understand what I was talking about at all.

When I said "blur" I meant in the resulting photograph. Motion blur in a photo reveals relative motion between some object and the camera that took the photo. So if the camera is at rest with the road, the resulting motion blur on a rolling tire will be maximized at the top of the tire, but if (for example) the camera is moving at the same velocity that the tire is rolling, the resulting motion blur will be maximized at the whole periphery of the tire.

... where the "rubber hits the road"...

But there is no "road" touching Jupiter at noon. You can imagine a road there, and Jupiter would be (approximately) rolling on it. But it would be equally valid to imagine a road touching the midnight side of Jupiter, and in that case, Jupiter would NOT be rolling on it properly at all. The choice seems fairly arbitrary.

 

[billvon]

prograde orbits, rotations will add forces on the outside, subtract them on the inside.

They will do neither. Tidal forces will be present on BOTH sides. Rotation will not change that; it will only reduce forces on the equator equally due to centrifugal force, which will act equally in all directions (no matter which frame you look at it from.)

 

[nebel]

You are simply choosing the reference frame of the sun, which does make sense when talking about the orbital velocities of the planets in our solar system.

Kepler's laws show that there can be no discussion about orbital velocity without reference to the central mass aka Sun.

But it would be equally valid to imagine a road touching the midnight side of Jupiter, and in that case, Jupiter would NOT be rolling on it properly at all. The choice seems fairly arbitrary.

well, your outside track choice would mean that you would be burning rubber, spinning the tires in reverse. That is why the inner zero velocity is relevant. not any other. On the inside you get zero velocity contact. kissing possible, and you can see it coming.

They will do neither. Tidal forces will be present on BOTH sides. Rotation will not change that; it will only reduce forces on the equator equally due to centrifugal force, which will act equally in all directions (no matter which frame you look at it from.)

The pendulum on the carousel showed, that additional tidal forces are generated on the inside & outside, because of the 2 counteracting rotational velocities, the adding and subtracting to achieve the total velocities. (yes with respect to 99.8 % of the mass of the solar system.)

 

[nebel]

A point on the planet's equator that is "stationary with respect to the sun" is merely stationary with respect to a line joining it to the sun. That line is a radius of the orbit, sweeping round the sun at orbital velocity.

copyright, credit: forum cosmos quest, off google images.
Posted these images just as an illustration because they show features not rotating, not concentric with the cg of the rings., possibly pointing nearly parallel to the Sun. Stationary effects generated and traces left, during the passage of Saturn on its orbit, with the zero velocity area at noon somehow generating different reflections?
Going to Jupiter here and the carousel, (you got to give leeway to an amateur), Considering the Big red Spot. Every 5 hours, there would be a difference, peak and valley, of absorption and reflection of energy. This would be a standing wave like feature, since it generated by an object with zero velocity, but varying energy intensity.
This "wave"*, standing in the ecliptic should have a wavelength of ~ 140 000 m for Jupiter and ~120 000 or fraction, multiples thereof for Saturn respectively. Vary with the seasons of course to have the equator align in different ways with the ecliptic.
These would be kind of standing compression waves, with peak energy every 5 hours.
Just pointing out the similarities: the spokes spacings are commensurate with features that relate to the radius of the orbit, not the rotation, A feature that would be created by a recurring condition (like zero velocity), as the planet passes along.
* The lifetime of this wave would be 80 minutes, more if any resonances are generated. (spooky action at a distance).

 

[Neddy Bate]

well, your outside track choice would mean that you would be burning rubber, spinning the tires in reverse. That is why the inner zero velocity is relevant. not any other.

If Jupiter rotated in the opposite direction on its axis, yet still orbited in the same direction around the sun, you would be telling us that the outside track is the only one which is relevant. How arbitrary.

Even your choice of choosing a point on the equator of Jupiter is arbitrary. Why not choose some other point on the surface?

Meanwhile, on the earth's surface, there is not a single point anywhere which can be considered to be rolling like a wheel around its orbital "road". This is because the orbital speed is much greater than the rotational speed of any point on the surface.

 

[origin]

If Jupiter rotated in the opposite direction on its axis, yet still orbited in the same direction around the sun, you would be telling us that the outside track is the only one which is relevant. How arbitrary.

Even your choice of choosing a point on the equator of Jupiter is arbitrary. Why not choose some other point on the surface?

Meanwhile, on the earth's surface, there is not a single point anywhere which can be considered to be rolling like a wheel around its orbital "road". This is because the orbital speed is much greater than the rotational speed of any point on the surface.

Take a brick and place it on the table.
Pull up a chair and sit down.
Carefully explain to the brick orbital mechanics.

Now realize this is effectively what you are doing in this thread.

Good luck.

 

[Neddy Bate]

Now, now. Be nice. lol

 

[billvon]

The pendulum on the carousel showed, that additional tidal forces are generated on the inside & outside, because of the 2 counteracting rotational velocities, the adding and subtracting to achieve the total velocities. (yes with respect to 99.8 % of the mass of the solar system.)

Nope. The pendulum on the carousel shows that ACCELERATION causes pendulum bias. Nothing about tides; that's ridiculous. And all the woo in the world won't change that.

 

[nebel]

If Jupiter rotated in the opposite direction on its axis, yet still orbited in the same direction around the sun, you would be telling us that the outside track is the only one which is relevant. How arbitrary.

Even your choice of choosing a point on the equator of Jupiter is arbitrary. Why not choose some other point on the surface?

Meanwhile, on the earth's surface, there is not a single point anywhere which can be considered to be rolling like a wheel around its orbital "road". This is because the orbital speed is much greater than the rotational speed of any point on the surface.

I did not chose these points. Take the red spot, near the equator. It is not of my choosing that it comes to a near standstill at noon with respect to the radius to the sun. (hardly an arbitrarily chosen line, if there ever was one).
No other point has an equalizing of velocity. Sunup, sundown, equator points all keep their orbital velocity unaffected.
All other planets are different, This is a unique situation for those giants. (90% of the planetary mass in this situation, points on their equator stop moving in their orbits, --all the time.
but I will get back to Earth. 584 Earth days.

 

[nebel]

Nope. The pendulum on the carousel shows that ACCELERATION causes pendulum bias. Nothing about tides; that's ridiculous. And all the woo in the world won't change that.

Please elaborate on that. of course, even gravity is an acceleration. the centrifugal "force" is an acceleration. right. At noon on Jupiter's and Saturn's equators the accelerations affect each other most. better?

 

[nebel]

All it says is that at any instant a point on the equator of the planet, on the imaginary line joining the Sun to the planet, is approximately at rest as viewed from the Sun. But the planet is still rotating, so after a short time later, that particular point will be moving again

There is no disputing on that,-- I hope. 2 issues have arisen from that situation though:
1) The effects on more intensity or longer duration of energy, or of anything,-- transfer, exchange (like picture taking) and
2) tidal or gyroscopic effects because of the combined effect of opposing and adding "forces", -- small they might be.
Using James R , r for Radius "line" illustration above on the carousel carried around a level circular track.
Suppose we had chalk lines strung in the centre field on these radii. When the passenger on the perimeter reaches that innermost, zero velocity point, she could pluck that line and make a radius line on the ground. Next again, when she comes around at (2R pi) distance. Pretty pattern perhaps.
If you made that tuned Harp Strings instead of carpenter lines, you could have a concert of harmonics. All plucked at the real zero velocity series of points that exist, not in thin air.

 

[origin]

Now, now. Be nice. lol

I am serious. He will never budge. His mind is made up and no amount of logic or evidence will sway him. Come on, you know he will prove me right in this very thread.

PS, I just finished driving for 13 hour and I am in a surly mood..

 

[nebel]

The situation you are talking about is like this. The planet is rolling along an imaginary circle as it travels around the Sun.

But in this situation only points that are on that circle can every be said to have zero movement with respect to the surface, and that is when the planet is touching that point of the circle.

Here's the same situation as seen from the frame of the planet and with some additional markers placed at points along the radius of the circle.

Note how just the marker on the circle moves in, and for a brief instant is motionless with respect to the center before moving off again. None of the other markers at different radii of the circle do this they all, including the center of the circle where the Sun would be, are in constant motion. The only reason that one point does "stop" for an instant is that, during that one moment, its tangential speed and distance relative to the center of the planet is equal to that of the surface of the planet and thus their instantaneous angular velocity are the same in that instant.[/I]

There are images in this post and they do not chow up on my screen. can they be made clickable, help me to change my mind, please to please origin.