July 1914 (book title)

[NCDane]

That fact is important in both books. However the situation can't be simply reduced to that fact alone.

Yes it can, if we are to stay on-topic with the word "deliberate".

Other facts: Serbian ambitions (including all south Slavs in a Serbian controlled state - Yugoslavia), Russia appointing itself the protector of Slav interests, France determined to get Alsace-Lorraine back, etc.

Previously addressed, and worth repeating:

As to the objection that Russia and France might also have taken steps to avoid war, such as letting Austria have its way with Serbia, perhaps that is true. However, the issue raised by OP was whether starting the war was deliberate, and it is reasonable to consider the word "deliberate" to mean that war was, from the start of the crisis, THE desired outcome. It certainly was for the governments of August 1914 Germany and Austria! But I do not believe the same could be said for Russia and France.

The last sentence should actually be more forceful and expansive: on one side Serbia, Russia, France and the UK did NOT want war in 1914, whereas Austria and Germany DID want war in 1914, and took DELIBERATE action to make it happen.


I have noticed a trend in internet debate whereby something may be described as its exact opposite, as in a deliberately sought outcome transmogrified into an unintended consequence. That is part of a broader trend whereby all distinctions are ignored in favor of a specious all-things-are-really-just-equal or-the-same homogenization.

Sadly, these tactics are becoming the norm in American public discourse, from right-wing politicians (see Eric Cantor's ludicrous holiday weekend press release misidentifying business ownership with Labor) to left-wing academics (see Physicist Lawrence Krauss's tortured efforts to concoct a Universe "out of nothing"). It will take a bigger player than me to stem the tide of these sophistries. But I can still enjoy myself with accepting an occasional opportunity to combat them, such as that offered by OP.

 

[mathman]

My impression of Germany's approach was that Austria should act quickly against Serbia, while the horror the the assassination was still strongly felt throughout Europe. However Austria just procrastinated till the point where the events at the end of July took over.

 

[NCDane]

My impression of Germany's approach was that Austria should act quickly against Serbia, while the horror the the assassination was still strongly felt throughout Europe. However Austria just procrastinated till the point where the events at the end of July took over.

My impression of Germany's approach is that it gave Austria a blank check to do whatever it wanted,
preferably start a war, and to let Austria set the tempo as it saw fit. The 25-day interval (June 28-July 23)
from assassination to ultimatum does not strike me as nearly long enough to constitute procrastination.

 

[mathman]

My impression of Germany's approach is that it gave Austria a blank check to do whatever it wanted,
preferably start a war, and to let Austria set the tempo as it saw fit. The 25-day interval (June 28-July 23)
from assassination to ultimatum does not strike me as nearly long enough to constitute procrastination.

The Germans thought the Austrians were procrastinating. Many Austrian soldiers were on leave, so the Austrian commander wanted to wait till they returned.

 

[NCDane]

The Germans thought the Austrians were procrastinating. Many Austrian soldiers were on leave, so the Austrian commander wanted to wait till they returned.

War sooner or war later are both war which no one but Germans and the Austrians wanted in the summer of 1914.

 

[mathman]

War sooner or war later are both war which no one but Germans and the Austrians wanted in the summer of 1914.

The aim of Austria was to punish Serbia for the assassination, not to start a war.

I don't see any point in pursuing this discussion further. The authors of the two books I cited make a very compelling case that no one wanted war, but it came about because the cultures of the nations involved led them into it. In "The Sleepwalkers" the Serbs get the brunt of the blame.

 

[NCDane]

The aim of Austria was to punish Serbia for the assassination, not to start a war.

Oh, Austria did not aim to start a war? Really?

Well, Austria must have overcome its scruples, because after 25 days
of "procrastination" it went ahead and started a war anyway, as in it
was the first country out of about 40 eventual belligerents to declare war.

The authors of the two books I cited make a very compelling case that no one wanted war, but it came about because the cultures of the nations involved led them into it. In "The Sleepwalkers" the Serbs get the brunt of the blame.

And Massie makes a very compelling case that Germany and Austria did
want war, certainly with Serbia and France, and with Russia and Great Britain if need be.

I don't see any point in pursuing this discussion further.

Bye-bye.