Jesus and the Cross

Bowser:

I assume you mean egress to a better/happier life? Egress to a whole new awful terrible painful life wouldn't hold much appeal.

You're asking, then, if people would make a conscious choice to believe a certain thing if they knew they would be rewarded for believing it?

Would they have to honesty believe it, or just go through the motions of saying "yes, yes, I believe that" convincingly enough to gain the favour of the person or being handing out the reward?

I'd question the morality of saying you believe something just because you expect a reward if you say it. I don't know if I would be comfortable telling lies in exchange for reward. It might depend on how much better the promised life was going to be, how the reward would affect other people, and other factors not mentioned.

On the other hand, an honest belief isn't really arrived at by conscious choice, in my opinion. You come to believe in something because you're convinced by something or someone that it is true, or because it feels like it is true to you.

Speaking hypothetically, then, I could imagine coming to an honest belief in Jesus leading me to paradise, or whatever, if there was persuasive evidence that the promise was real and deliverable. Personally, I doubt that I'd be convinced just because the idea sounds appealing on its face. I'd need more than that.

Obviously, I can't say that I'm convinced by anything in the bible, or even that Jesus was a historical person, let alone the Son of God. So, there's quite a slope there to get me on the road to becoming a believer (again).

How about you? What did it for you?
 
Xelasnave.1947 said:
I dont understand your question.
Alex
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Could you believe that Jesus died for you, and that believing so would give you a new life, washing away your pain and regrets? I ask because that seems to be the bargain, but you are required to believe it true. It's very logical when you consider the proposition.
 
James R said:
I assume you mean egress to a better/happier life? Egress to a whole new awful terrible painful life wouldn't hold much appeal.
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We carry baggage through our lives that really don't serve us well, people dwelling on the past. If Christ died for anything, it was for the opportunity to start again. So, would you opt to be "Born Again" if given the chance?
 
Bowser said:
Could you believe that Jesus died for you, and that believing so would give you a new life, washing away your pain and regrets? I ask because that seems to be the bargain, but you are required to believe it true. It's very logical when you consider the proposition.
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I don't believe Jesus was anything more than one of many human Gods created around the Mediterranean that were invented from an astrology base.

Generally these human gods all had characteristics in common with the Sun, twelve followers, which parralleled the Suns annual passage thru the twelve constellations of the zodiac, all these Gods died usually via crusifiction and all rose after three days , which parallel the Suns behaviour mid winter appearing to stop it's Southward journey and said to die only to start back North after three days that is being resurrected..reference to dieing on the cross refers to the Sun appearing on the Southern Cross...there are sufficient links between the Sun, the zodiac and all these human Gods to conclude this type of cult was the basis for JC making him unfortunately just another of the human God common around the Mediterranean relegating J C to myth and basically just another "Elvis impersonator"... at least that is what the well researched history tells us if you care to conduct research to prove me wrong.

So there is no bargain to be made with a myth but if you wish to make such a bargain you should spread your bets around the fifteen or so human Gods who made similar promises...or you could just stop believing fairey tales and make the best of the one and only life you can ever have...there will be no second spin or each way bet..sorry.
Alex
 
Bowser said:
Could you believe that Jesus died for you, and that believing so would give you a new life, washing away your pain and regrets? I ask because that seems to be the bargain, but you are required to believe it true. It's very logical when you consider the proposition.

We carry baggage through our lives that really don't serve us well, people dwelling on the past. If Christ died for anything, it was for the opportunity to start again. So, would you opt to be "Born Again" if given the chance?
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I think Hitchens said it best:

“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on a another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves.”
 
(Q) said:

I think Hitchens said it best:

“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me;
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If there is an advantage holding onto his failures, then by all means, take them to the grave.
 
Bowser said:
If there is an advantage holding onto his failures, then by all means, take them to the grave.
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That's not the point.
Letting somebody else take the blame for you is wrong.
Moreover, it's wrong of god to accept the sacrifice and even more wrong to demand a sacrifice.
The whole idea stinks.
 
Jeeves said:
That's not the point.
Letting somebody else take the blame for you is wrong.
Moreover, it's wrong of god to accept the sacrifice and even more wrong to demand a sacrifice.
The whole idea stinks.
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It is what it is. People have given their live for lesser things. If believing it was for You, would You accept the gift?
 
Bowser said:
People have given their live for lesser things.
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Bowser...what lesser things? How can you have less than something that is unevidenced and no more than a myth based in astrology following the general MO of most of the Mediterranean human god cult figers of the times and inarguably specifically invented by the Romans to help manage an inconvenient rebellion?

Can you entertain that truth?

Are you so brainwashed that you can not examine the facts and the history to reach an inescapable conclusion that you are barking up a tree with no squirrel and no nuts?

Are you suggesting someone has given their life for the Easter Bunny or Santa?

Who needs such a gift if you have lived a decent life, who would accept such a toxic gift which only can cause you to become less than you are.

You seem to lack any hint of self esteem given you dwell on any of your spiritual delusions.

Why does god need all this worship nonsense...I had a small staff once and it ever ever entered my mind to have them worship me or even demand their respect..I had their respect because I earned it and never demanded it..how crazy would that be?

And not only do you indulge the fantasy you pay good money to boot.
It just does not make sense.

Do you believe that Adam and Eve were real? That the biblical flood took place and all life was wiped out bar that on the mythical arc?



Alex
 
Xelasnave.1947 said:
Do you believe that Adam and Eve were real? That the biblical flood took place and all life was wiped out bar that on the mythical arc?
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I believe that Jesus gives hope and relief to a lot of people. It has been 2000 years and He is still relevant.
 
Bowser said:
Could you believe that Jesus died for you, and that believing so would give you a new life, washing away your pain and regrets?
....
We carry baggage through our lives that really don't serve us well, people dwelling on the past. If Christ died for anything, it was for the opportunity to start again. So, would you opt to be "Born Again" if given the chance?
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I've never really understood either this "born again" business or the Catholic confession process by which one is absolved of sin. Both of these procedures are supposed to wipe the slate clean, so that you're no longer responsible for evil acts you have done in the past. The idea is that Jesus takes the blame for your evil acts, isn't it? As others have already said, that's all very nice of Jesus and all, but it's not a very moral act on your part to unload your responsibilities onto Jesus. Shouldn't you own your own actions and act like a responsible adult?

Also, it's all very well for you if you walk out of the confessional or your born-again baptism feeling free of the guilt you felt because of the harms you did to other people in the past, but it does nothing to redress those harms or help your victims. It just makes you feel better about yourself, which is fundamentally selfish.

It would be better for you to take responsibility and try your best to redress the wrongs you have done to others, rather than accepting a get-out-of-jail-free card from Jesus. Wouldn't it?
 
Bowser said:
It is what it is.
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What is?
Somebody said transgressions will be forgiven if you kill an innocent. (bullock, goat, lamb, pigeon, man, godling ... whatever, so long as it's "spotless" and bleeds a lot.)
That was a bad thing to say.
I don't care who, or how many, believed it then or believe it now - it's wrong.
People have given their live for lesser things.
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People die. I don't know whether they die "for" anything; they die of things and from things. I don't know how you decide that reasons are greater or lesser, but I know it's wrong to expect anyone to die for you.
If believing it was for You, would You accept the gift?
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NO. It's not a "gift"; it's a moral abomination.
I believe that Jesus gives hope and relief to a lot of people.
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The people who followed him hoped that he would either help reform the colonial government or lead an uprising against Roman rule. They would have lost and a lot of them would have been killed, so it was wise of him not to do the second. The pharisees probably thought he would do the first, so they got rid of him. Nothing noble about it.
It has been 2000 years and He is still relevant.
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His preachments would be, if the churches didn't make a mockery of them.
They're not interested in what he thought; they just want his blood.
 
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