James R "Kaffir" is not an insult.

[S.A.M.]

So basically you are offended at being called a non-Muslim [actually that is not the right translation, the correct meaning should be "a person who rejects Islam"] because you have little faith in the God that Muslims believe in and their taking note of this fact offends you? What bizarre logic. Don't Christians believe that you can only be saved through Jesus? I guarantee you most Muslims do not believe this. In fact, they consider it sacrilege to worship a prophet as God. And they will quite willingly admit to having little or no faith to being saved by Jesus.

I'm still wondering why you are flapping about something that you admit to quite openly. Do you embrace the Islamic faith? Personally I think that the whole People of the Book thing indicates that there is only one God as does the God sent a prophet to all tribes, but do YOU believe this? That there is only one God and its not Jesus? That there is no special God for different peoples? Because if you don't you're a kafir. You have rejected the basic tenet of Islam.

 

[wynn]

No I don't see any point in those posts because I really don't understand why you are offended at being called a non-Muslim. I'm not sure how other people being offended at being called non-Muslim makes any difference.

I am sure there exist studies on how people tend to take offense whenever they are declared as not belonging to a group.
Some advertising campaigns are built on harping on this hurt, on the fear that people have from being excluded.

Being told that "You're not one of us!" tends to hurt, and this hurt can override whatever that "us" refers to.

"You're a non-Nazi!"
"You're a non-loser!"
"You're a non-unemployed!"

Yep, it hurts. I mean, I'm hurt when I'm told I'm a non-Muslim or a heathen - despite being so intelligent and so above the fray and everything!

 

[GeoffP]

Bizarre logic?

Sam, it's not a question of "little faith", but rather "little faith in your version of theology". By the same token, it would be offensive of me to call others "pagans" or "heathens", or say that they have "little faith" simply because they don't share my faith. So while Muslims don't think they're saved through Jesus, that doesn't give me the right to say they have little faith. The problem appears to be bizarre assertion in the first place (what prompts such hubris?); and unreasonable exception on your part. As such - it is unfair and wrong of you to use that word to describe me.

Chi got a warning for the term, and Fraggle asked everyone to lay off it. I would request that you, also, not apply it to me. It's not extremely offensive, as other words, but it's certainly offensive, because of the assumptions and inferences underlying it as you seem to be applying it.

Thanks in advance for your compliance; find another word or use "non-Muslim". I appreciate that you see this as hijacking; I recommend you look elsewhere for the culpability.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yep, it hurts. I mean, I'm hurt when I'm told I'm a non-Muslim or a heathen - despite being so intelligent and so above the fray and everything!

Ah well. Since only one fifth of the world is Muslim, it unavaoidable that there will be non-Muslims and people who reject Islam in favour of their own gods.

But if you feel excluded, take heart in the fact that even though Muslims feel the need to point out that there are some people who don't follow Islam, the Qur'an quite generously calls all mankind as one nation and all prophets as people who helped them to determine their ways of lives in matters where they differed from one another with scriptures that were relevant to those peoples at those times. Kanaan naasu ummatan wahidatun... etc etc Only people differentiate between people, God has a more indifferent POV.

Bizarre logic?

Sam, it's not a question of "little faith", but rather "little faith in your version of theology".

Yes thats what I said. Are you saying that this is not correct? Do you have more faith your version of theology or mine? Its easy enough. Either you can only be saved through Jesus or Jesus is just another prophet and you are commanded to not discriminate between them [la nufarriko min ahadin wa rasulihi]. You can only pick one.

 

[GeoffP]

Other than the oppressing and killing and treating like enemies and whatnot.

 

[S.A.M.]

Thats beside the point

The point here is whether you have little faith in Islam or not. Whether you accept or reject the basic tenets of Islam or not. Clearly the notion of rejecting Islam offends you, so you must have given some thought to it.

Since you claim to be Christian the teachings of Islam will be in direct contradiction to your faith

For example:

The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein:...
—Qur'an, sura 42 (Ash-Shura), ayah 13[69]

Do you believe that?

 

[wynn]

Ah well. Since only one fifth of the world is Muslim, it unavaoidable that there will be non-Muslims and people who reject Islam in favour of their own gods.

But if you feel excluded, take heart in the fact that even though Muslims feel the need to point out that there are some people who don't follow Islam, the Qur'an quite generously calls all mankind as one nation and all prophets as people who helped them to determine their ways of lives in matters where they differed from one another with scriptures that were relevant to those peoples at those times. Kanaan naasu ummatan wahidatun... etc etc Only people differentiate between people, God has a more indifferent POV.

But I want respect!!!!!
From everyone!!!
At all times!!!!!

 

[S.A.M.]

But I want respect!!!!!
From everyone!!!
At all times!!!!!

Well they do say or rather Chesterton did that those who believe in nothing will end up falling for anything.

 

[Dywyddyr]

But I want respect!!!!!
From everyone!!!
At all times!!!!!

And a cherry on top?

 

[GeoffP]

Thats beside the point

So was your post.

The point here is whether you have little faith in Islam or not.

Not really, no. "Heathen" and "pagan" have pejorative connotations; as does the "k-word". I'm glad you've taken the time to research the root of the word, but that carries little meaning in modern usage, and since that usage is now negative, it's best to avoid it.

If you're looking for someone to blame (as you were earlier), I suggest you seek out the Muslim racists who sullied it, although to be honest the implication was probably not far from the surface. I note, for example, that you've inadvertently taken up the classical definition of "rejection" here: rejection being considered in this case as a negative thing by those who have not rejected Islam, presumably including yourself. :shrug: What can I say?

It's okay, though: you can think of me as a dirty k-word in your heart. The problem remains one of assertion and inconsideration.

 

[S.A.M.]

but that carries little meaning in modern usage, and since that usage is now negative, it's best to avoid it.

modern usage by whom? Muslims? Non-Muslims? Arabs? What exactly is the negative connotation of being a person who rejects Islam?

 

[GeoffP]

modern usage by whom?

Muslims, seemingly.

What exactly is the negative connotation of being a person who rejects Islam?

You just said it was "little faith". :shrug:

 

[S.A.M.]

Muslims, seemingly.



You just said it was "little faith". :shrug:

Yeah like being a woman means having little testosterone.

How is a fact offensive? You haven't told me how much faith you have in Islamic tenets.

 

[GeoffP]

Yeah like being a woman means having little testosterone.

Well, your screeds against atheists/atheism are pretty well known, Sam. Doesn't seem to me you have much respect for those with "little faith" under any definition. I invite you to reconsider.

How is a fact offensive?

It is a fact that non-Mohammedans have little faith? How is this? Your term makes no reference to Islam per se, actually: it originates in the word "cover"; as in, to conceal. Presumably this is meant to imply one who conceals the truth: even your classical definition only makes sense if Islam is correct and others incorrect.

The word kāfir is the active participle of the root K-F-R "to cover". As a pre-Islamic term it described farmers burying seeds in the ground, covering them with soil while planting (أَعْجَبَ الْكُفَّارَ نَبَاتُهُ) (Surah 57 Al-Hadid (Iron) Ayah 20;[1]). Thus, the word kāfir implies the meaning "a person who hides or covers".[citation needed]

In Islamic parlance, a kāfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith, i.e. "hides or covers [viz., the truth]".[3][citation needed]

"kafara" ~ the root verb ~ means "he hid (something)" and "he covered (something)" or "He hid (something) by covering it up." Both "hiding" and "covering up" are indelible significations of all of the words arising on the verbal root.[citation needed]

The Hebrew cognate gives words like kofer meaning "apostate" and kefira, meaning "apostasy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

Of course, all this is beside the point in that the word is also presently offensive: hence Chi's usage, and eventual ban.

You haven't told me how much faith you have in Islamic tenets.

Why? What is this relevant to? How would my personal feelings relate to the discussion?

 

[S.A.M.]

Why? What is this relevant to? How would my personal feelings relate to the discussion?

How is your faith in Islamic tenet relevant to your stance on being called a person who rejects Islam? Other than being directly relevant? Iman or faith, for Muslims is the unequivocal belief in one God "ashadwan la ilaha illallah" . If you reject this, you have little or no faith, according to Islam. Same way as I have no faith in the divine Jesus.

Iman is one of the three dimensions of the Islamic religion (Ara. ad-din): islam, iman and ihsan. Following after islam comes iman or "faith," which refers to 'true commitment' to God. According to the Qur’an (49:14), it is possible to have one and not yet the other: "Do not say 'we have accepted faith'; rather say 'we have accepted Islam,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts."

Its not rocket science. Did you think when any Muslim refers to your faith, they are referring to your stance on Jesus? Your South African nationality? Your black race? Your Sri Lankan origin? A citrus fruit?

Or do you think they are referring to your belief in Islam?

 

[GeoffP]

You're right: it isn't rocket science. We're discussing whether the term is offensive. In usage, and seemingly in origin, it's has a negative aspect. It equivocates to "heathen" or "pagan" and should probably be avoided. Your selection of me as a fortuitous example is extraneous.

Thanks again.

 

[wynn]

The point here is whether you have little faith in Islam or not. Whether you accept or reject the basic tenets of Islam or not. Clearly the notion of rejecting Islam offends you, so you must have given some thought to it.

I don't recall being accused of rejecting Islam more than just a few times. But I have been accused of rejecting Christ, often, and this accusation hurt.

One way I can explain this hurt to myself is that we tend to feel the most hurt when our sense of innoncence is abused.

In my view, I have not rejected Christ; I do not even know what it takes to accept or reject Christ. So I feel innocent on this matter. So how could anyone justly accuse me of rejecting Christ?
Yet I do feel hurt, I think I have been wrongly accused.
So when I am accused of rejecting Christ, I feel the hurt of being wrongly accused.

Another element of this hurt is that the accuser apparently wants no discussion with me, but simply expects me to accept the accusation. Ie. expects me to think myself stupid and worthless, not good enough to be discussed with or to have things explained to me.
I suppose only a person with self-esteem issues would succomb to such a demeaning expectation, though.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't recall being accused of rejecting Islam more than just a few times. But I have been accused of rejecting Christ, often, and this accusation hurt.

One way I can explain this hurt to myself is that we tend to feel the most hurt when our sense of innoncence is abused.

In my view, I have not rejected Christ; I do not even know what it takes to accept or reject Christ. So I feel innocent on this matter. So how could anyone justly accuse me of rejecting Christ?
Yet I do feel hurt, I think I have been wrongly accused.
So when I am accused of rejecting Christ, I feel the hurt of being wrongly accused.

Another element of this hurt is that the accuser apparently wants no discussion with me, but simply expects me to accept the accusation. Ie. expects me to think myself stupid and worthless, not good enough to be discussed with or to have things explained to me.
I suppose only a person with self-esteem issues would succomb to such a demeaning expectation, though.

Yes, I am familiar with this tactic. For example, I have attended mass in several churches but never been offered wine or wafer. Everybody eats and drinks except non-Christians. Very inhospitable.

I have also seen the same behaviour from athiests on this board who seem to think that abusing theists is some kind of right which they should be accorded because they don't have the freedom to do this where they live. Apparently discrimination is an inalienable right.

 

[GeoffP]

Yes, I am familiar with this tactic.

Well, why do you engage in it then?

For example, I have attended mass in several churches but never been offered wine or wafer. Everybody eats and drinks except non-Christians. Very inhospitable.

OMG! I had a similar experience. I was attending a mosque in Philadelphia and they made me remove my shoes, as if I were a carrier of filth. I wasn't allowed to touch the Quran, and the women had to go into a separate place where they couldn't be seen. I also had to kneel and bow and everything. Very inhospitable. (I suppose it was more inhospitable for the women, mind.)

 

[Bells]

Its not rocket science. Did you think when any Muslim refers to your faith, they are referring to your stance on Jesus? Your South African nationality? Your black race? Your Sri Lankan origin? A citrus fruit?

Devil woman!

Did you just call my Geoff Geoff a lemon?!

Begone before I strike thee with my fast typing!