Is the planet "broken" and did that cause the evolution of predation?

W

Wexler

Gadfly
Registered Senior Member
Question for the board: is it possible that because the planet is “broken” (the collision that gave the Earth its iron core that spins, the moon, the tilt, the wobble, not to mention the tectonics, the inconsistent position of the landmasses, the extreme climate change…oh and a mediocre sun) life on this planet evolved the need for predation?

If the planet itself was a uniform, stable and nurturing environment with equal distribution of resources life would have evolved differently...and thus no predatorial behavior...and that while evolution might be consistent for life through the universe, predatorial behavior is not?

Thanks!
 
If there is a ready source of energy life will utilize it. That means predators are inevitable. Your comment about a broken planet and predators seems to indicate thàt you think that predatation is somehow wrong or against the natural order. Putting moral judgements on natural phenomena rarely yields anything useful. By the way this "broken planet" is the only planet we know of that is not hostile to life. Seems like it is the opposite of broken!
 
Where there are two or more species of anything you can bet that there will be predation. Earth is not broken as Origin has said so I don't understand how you came up with that.
 
origin said:
By the way this "broken planet" is the only planet we know of that is not hostile to life.
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Exactly...it's the only one we know of...it's simply a matter of time, technology and math until we find something to compare to.

Just as the Earth was the center of the universe...then it wasn't...just as the Milky Way was everything...and then it wasn't...just as the atom was uncuttable...and then it wasn't...just as the Higgs was the smallest...until it wasn't...

Earth isn't broken? A molten core we do not understand, pole flips with distinct regularity, a wobble, a spin, tectonics, unstable land masses, extreme climate changes...a mediocre energy source...I could keep going...

From the start, the garbage bags were under attack...then the first cells, under attack, multicellular life, under attack, advanced life forms, under attack...but there is evidence of other life forms on this planet that are not cannibals...that predator and prey are not part of the evolutionary equation...thus it must be considered that life (assuming there is life somewhere else in the Universe) does not necessarily have to evolve with predation pushing advancement.
 
Wexler said:
Earth isn't broken?
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Of course not. Compared to what. How is the earth "suppose" to be??
A molten core we do not understand,
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Is the core not 'suppose' to be molten? If we understood it to a deeper level would it then be 'OK' that it was molten.
pole flips with distinct regularity,
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Are the poles not 'suppose' to flip?
a wobble, a spin,
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Is the earth not 'suppose' to wobble and spin.
tectonics, unstable land masses, extreme climate changes
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So the land masses aren't 'suppose' to move? The climate isn't 'suppose' to vary?
...a mediocre energy source...
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The sun is 'suppose' to be larger and hotter?
I could keep going...
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More of your judgments on how the earth should be would not make this whole thread any less strange.

From the start, the garbage bags were under attack...then the first cells, under attack, multicellular life, under attack, advanced life forms, under attack...but there is evidence of other life forms on this planet that are not cannibals...that predator and prey are not part of the evolutionary equation...thus it must be considered that life (assuming there is life somewhere else in the Universe) does not necessarily have to evolve with predation pushing advancement.
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The only life that does not consume other life that I know of are plants and some thermophile bacteria.

Life seizes opportunities. I think it is safe to say that there will always be predators and parasites in any environment.
 
origin said:
Of course not. Compared to what. How is the earth "suppose" to be??

Is the core not 'suppose' to be molten? If we understood it to a deeper level would it then be 'OK' that it was molten.

Are the poles not 'suppose' to flip?

Is the earth not 'suppose' to wobble and spin.

So the land masses aren't 'suppose' to move? The climate isn't 'suppose' to vary?

The sun is 'suppose' to be larger and hotter?

More of your judgments on how the earth should be would not make this whole thread any less strange.


The only life that does not consume other life that I know of are plants and some thermophile bacteria.

Life seizes opportunities. I think it is safe to say that there will always be predators and parasites in any environment.
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The point of all those characteristics is that our science is so "young" we have no idea if a core "should" be molten, if poles "should" flip, if planets "should" wobble and spin...etc.

We only have one example to compare against - Earth...out of 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible habitable planets in the universe...and trillions of suns...


Sorry, but you just contradicted yourself, and in a way proving the point of the original question:

origin said:
The only life that does not consume other life that I know of are plants and some thermophile bacteria.
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and...

origin said:
Life seizes opportunities. I think it is safe to say that there will always be predators and parasites in any environment.
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You are making the assumption of only the behaviors of eukaryotic organisms, which does not encompass all "life".


"All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have.” - Einstein
 
What ever.....

"Boy my nuts itch!" - Einstein. Well, I assume he said that a few times in his life.
 
Wexler said:
Question for the board: is it possible that because the planet is “broken” (the collision that gave the Earth its iron core that spins, the moon, the tilt, the wobble, not to mention the tectonics, the inconsistent position of the landmasses, the extreme climate change…oh and a mediocre sun) life on this planet evolved the need for predation?

If the planet itself was a uniform, stable and nurturing environment with equal distribution of resources life would have evolved differently...and thus no predatorial behavior...and that while evolution might be consistent for life through the universe, predatorial behavior is not?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Yes, and Humanity would have descended from a single caucasian male and a single caucasian female...
 
origin said:
If there is a ready source of energy life will utilize it. That means predators are inevitable. Your comment about a broken planet and predators seems to indicate thàt you think that predatation is somehow wrong or against the natural order. Putting moral judgements on natural phenomena rarely yields anything useful. By the way this "broken planet" is the only planet we know of that is not hostile to life. Seems like it is the opposite of broken!
Click to expand...
.
Earth is very hostile to life.

.
 
StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
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You said Earth is not hostile to life & I point out that it is. You seem to agree yet must qualify it.
.
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What is your point? I really do not understand what you are talking about. This is the only planet that appears able to sustain life out of 1800 or so planet that have been discovered. There has been life on earth for about 3.5 billion years so I would say this is incredibly hospitable to life.

What do you mean I am qualify the statement? Because I compared the earth to the other planets? For you to say the earth is hostile you must also be comparing that to something, right?
 
origin said:
Not compared to every other planet or moon we have discovered. So I guess it is a matter of context.
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Context as in 99% of all life forms have become extinct in the past 600,000,000 years?

Doesn't seem so hospitable when you put it into that context.

Now consider my earlier point that there are 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible habitable planets in the universe...
 
Wexler said:
Exactly...it's the only one we know of...it's simply a matter of time, technology and math until we find something to compare to.
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We have half a dozen other plants and moons of similar size here near Sol to compare it to.
Just as the Earth was the center of the universe...then it wasn't...just as the Milky Way was everything...and then it wasn't...just as the atom was uncuttable...and then it wasn't...just as the Higgs was the smallest...until it wasn't...
Click to expand...
?? Uh - right. The Earth wasn't "broken" even when we thought it was the center of the Universe. We just didn't understand how the universe worked yet. Fortunately we know more now.
Earth isn't broken?
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Nope. No more so than any other planet in the solar system is broken.
A molten core we do not understand, pole flips with distinct regularity, a wobble, a spin, tectonics, unstable land masses, extreme climate changes...a mediocre energy source..
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All quite natural.
From the start, the garbage bags were under attack...then the first cells, under attack, multicellular life, under attack, advanced life forms, under attack...but there is evidence of other life forms on this planet that are not cannibals...that predator and prey are not part of the evolutionary equation...thus it must be considered that life (assuming there is life somewhere else in the Universe) does not necessarily have to evolve with predation pushing advancement.
Click to expand...
Life implies predation. It was likely present from very, very early on in the evolution of life on Earth. Indeed, there is a well-supported theory that mitochondria, a critical component of human cells, resulted in a failed attempt of an early cell to eat another.
 
Wexler said:
Context as in 99% of all life forms have become extinct in the past 600,000,000 years?
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Closer to 99.99999%.
Doesn't seem so hospitable when you put it into that context.
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The goal of evolution is not to prolong the existence of species. Indeed, one of its goals is to replace less-adapted organisms with better adapted organisms. (Which you should be grateful for - you wouldn't be here if everything else vying for our ancestor's ecological niche hadn't gotten out of the way.)
Now consider my earlier point that there are 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible habitable planets in the universe...
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Right . . . .
 
billvon said:
We just didn't understand...

Life implies predation.
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We just didn't understand, as in prior to October 6, 1923 all of humanity, including and especially the field of science, thought differently because of technology. One man thought, and proved, differently.

As shown above, not all "Life" implies predation.
 
Wexler said:
Most, but not all...and the great oxidation event of the early oceans caused a great dying in and of itself.
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Right. So did meteor impacts, evolution, and ordinary old age. None of those indicates anything "broken" with a system.
 
billvon said:
Right. So did meteor impacts, evolution, and ordinary old age. None of those indicates anything "broken" with a system.
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Hmmm, ok, fair point I guess, but really, how about these?

1End-Ordovician, 443 million years ago.
This coincides with very rapid glaciation; sea level fell by more than 100 metres, devastating shallow marine ecosystems; less than a million years later, there was a second wave of extinctions as ice melted, sea level rose rapidly, and oceans became oxygen-depleted.

2Late Devonian, c 360 million years ago.
A messy prolonged event, again hitting life in shallow seas very hard, and an extinction that was probably due to climate change.

3Permian-Triassic mass extinction, c 250 million years ago.
The greatest of all, ‘The Great Dying’ of more than 95% of species, is strongly linked with massive volcanic eruptions in Siberia that caused, among other effects, a brief savage episode of global warming.

4Triassic-Jurassic mass extinction, c 200 million years ago.
This has been linked with another huge outburst of volcanism.

So lets review: rapid glaciation, ice melting oceans became oygen-depleted, climate change, massive volcanic eruptions, global warming and volcanism...


Nothing "broken" about that system, eh?
 
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