Is the brain necessary for consciousness?

[Pinball1970]

Well, there are our bacterial symbionts.
And the entire body's microtubule-maintained intra-cellular and inter-cellular neural network, responding to the action potentials produced by the brain from neural input to the brain's sub-conscious homeostatic level.

Homeostasis doesn't need to be consciously self-aware. It is an autonomous regulation and control system for maintaining the body's biochemical balance.

This is a nonsense statement. It is like saying gestation of respiration does not need to be self aware.

 

[Pinball1970]

It is an autonomous regulation and control system for maintaining the body's biochemical balance.

I know what it is, I just do not know why you keep referencing it.

 

[Pinball1970]

That is not the question. The question is if it is informative and has a prominent place in current science.

These subjects at these levels are finally becoming available for observation and measurement.
These are exciting times for science.
I am but a minor messenger, trying to distribute some of the materials I personally find interesting.

Well stop referencing it then.

 

[Write4U]

Quick! Phone all the dementia researchers. Write4U has FOUND THE CAUSE!

NO, Stuart Hameroff, a qualified anesthesiologist and researcher, found that. Read up on it. It's in my microtubule thread.

 

[Write4U]

I don't need to read up.
Why are you not reading what I keep posting?
It is NOT just the brain that is is involved with metabolic process and maintenance.

I do read what you are posting , but you are treating the subject in a superficial manner.

I know what it is, I just do not know why you keep referencing it.

So rather than mincing words, let's consult an authoritative paper.

Substantial evidence indicates that the brain, particularly the hypothalamus, is primarily responsible for the regulation of energy homeostasis. The brain monitors changes in the body energy state by sensing alterations in the plasma levels of key metabolic hormones and nutrients.Mar 11, 2016

Emerging role of the brain in the homeostatic regulation of energy and glucose metabolism
Abstract

Accumulated evidence from genetic animal models suggests that the brain, particularly the hypothalamus, has a key role in the homeostatic regulation of energy and glucose metabolism. The brain integrates multiple metabolic inputs from the periphery through nutrients, gut-derived satiety signals and adiposity-related hormones.

The brain modulates various aspects of metabolism, such as food intake, energy expenditure, insulin secretion, hepatic glucose production and glucose/fatty acid metabolism in adipose tissue and skeletal muscle.

Highly coordinated interactions between the brain and peripheral metabolic organs are critical for the maintenance of energy and glucose homeostasis. Defective crosstalk between the brain and peripheral organs contributes to the development of obesity and type 2 diabetes.

Here we comprehensively review the above topics, discussing the main findings related to the role of the brain in the homeostatic regulation of energy and glucose metabolism.

Central regulation of energy metabolism

In normal individuals, food intake and energy expenditure are tightly regulated by homeostatic mechanisms to maintain energy balance. Substantial evidence indicates that the brain, particularly the hypothalamus, is primarily responsible for the regulation of energy homeostasis.1

The brain monitors changes in the body energy state by sensing alterations in the plasma levels of key metabolic hormones and nutrients. Specialized neuronal networks in the brain coordinate adaptive changes in food intake and energy expenditure in response to altered metabolic conditions (Figure 1).2, 3

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4892882/#[/quote]
Central Role of the Brain in Stress and Adaptation

Homeostasis is defined as a self-regulating process by which a living organism can maintain internal stability while adjusting to changing external conditions.

more....
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/homeostasis

 

[Write4U]

This is a nonsense statement. It is like saying gestation of respiration does not need to be self aware.

First, your description of Homeostasis is woefully inadequate.

And yes, Homeostasis is a sub-conscious process. The brain does not need to be consciously self-aware in order to control the biochemistry of the body. It is an autonomous regulatory process. That is why a person under anesthesia is unconscious , but his homeostatic processes remain functional.
It is only when there is something wrong that the conscious brain is notified by signals of distress, such as pain, discomfort, bloating, nausea.

 

[Write4U]

I know what it is, I just do not know why you keep referencing it.

Apparently you did not know that homeostasis is a sub-conscious process.
It does not need conscious awareness of the body's regulatory processes, necessary to maintain biochemical balance that keeps us alive!

 

[Write4U]

Well stop referencing it then.

Referencing what? Stop writing?

 

[Pinball1970]

First, your description of Homeostasis is woefully inadequate

My university lecturer did not think so.

All metabolic process are subconscious, breathing is subconscious, making sperm is subconscious, digesting food, peristalsis, protein synthesis, sodium potassium pump even walking and talking to an extent.

It is obvious that you have come across a big word that sounds clever so you keep using it like quantum or space-time.
It is OBVIOUS that metabolism is subconscious, you do not need to keep saying it.
Anyone who has studied biochemistry, cell biology will know this.

 

[Write4U]

My university lecturer did not think so.

He would not be satisfied with your original description. I would have given it a "d".

All metabolic process are subconscious, breathing is subconscious, making sperm is subconscious, digesting food, peristalsis, protein synthesis, sodium potassium pump even walking and talking to an extent.

That's better.

It is obvious that you have come across a big word that sounds clever so you keep using it like quantum or space-time.

And your point is?

It is OBVIOUS that metabolism is subconscious, you do not need to keep saying it.
Anyone who has studied biochemistry, cell biology will know this.

I didn't say that metabolism is subconscious. Everybody knows that.
I said that homeostasis (and all that is covered by that term) is subconscious. Get your facts straight.

See what happens when you make premature accusations about my knowledge without taking a moment to consider what I post.

 

[Write4U]

Via anesthesia, we have proven that consciousness resides in, or is an emergent property of the brain.
So that question has been answered.

For those who are actually interested in this subject, have a look and learn "current science" of the brain.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

making sperm is subconscious

What?!?!?! I've been doing all of this for nothing?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Via anesthesia, we have proven that consciousness resides in, or is an emergent property of the brain.
So that question has been answered.

For those who are actually interested in this subject, have a look and learn "current science" of the brain.

I'm not sure that is even on topic. But I watched and found it to be poorly done and a little irritating. Okay, sensory information is relative to various influences. That could have been done in a few minutes instead of half an hour. More importantly, they use a very limited definition of consciousness and they said so. Do you remember that? And they specifically make the point that we don't understand the deeper concepts such as self awareness. I also find their language very sloppy. They generalize far too much. For example, they conclude by emphasizing how little we can rely on memories. I have memories of significant events in my life that are clear to me. If I happen to look at a reference for that information, such as a photograph from my childhood which I have not seen in many years, or if I find something I wrote when I was very young or at least many years ago, or even something I posted on the internet over twenty years ago, I almost never find any conflicts. Things are usually exactly as I remember them. Holes do occur from time to time but that probably depends more on context. Was it a stressful situation? Was it a very brief event? Was I sure of the facts at that time? What was important to me at the time? It isn't as if my memories are all wrong but the narrators make it sound like they should be. Generally, whenever they get tested, my memories are dead on.

My memory gets tested all the time for my work. If memories were as flawed as they try to make them sound, I wouldn't be able to do my job. Some things I do easily forget; names being the biggest example. I have never been good with names and have to drill them into my memory through repetition or word association. But I can tell you what someone said ten years ago; often verbatim. I can still tell you my drivers license number that I had from another State over thirty years ago, and my telephone number when I was ten years old. The memories I find to be most likely to be in error are minor details and insignificant events. I may not remember what the guy was wearing when he put a gun to my head because I didn't care, but I remember the gun and what he said very clearly because that is what mattered. (True story) The same goes for my job. I involuntarily commit to memory the important aspects of events and mostly ignore irrelevant information.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The problem with this hypothesis is that it does not lend itself to the observable fact that a deteriorating mind doesn't just lose consciousness, it does many other things that can only be explained by the brain changing the mind - such as paranoid delusions, schizophrenia and a zillion other things that link mind directly to brain.

If the brain were merely a conduit, it would not be able to corrupt the thought processes of the mind.

To-wit: no matter how janky the radio gets, it can't alter the sports scores.

A radio can certainly produce noise where a signal should be present because it isn't properly tuned or has been damaged. If the signals aren't processed properly due to a failed component, they become meaningless. And if a radio gets tuned between stations, you can get a mix of signals; just to continue the analogy.

 

[Write4U]

I have memories of significant events in my life that are clear to me.

I think those memories are called engrams.

Memory engrams: Recalling the past and imagining the future

“Engram cells” are populations of cells that constitute critical cellular components of a given engram. These cells may (or may not) also be critical components of engrams supporting other memories.

Engram cells are (i) activated by a learning experience, (ii) physically or chemically modified by the learning experience, and (iii) reactivated by subsequent presentation of the stimuli present at the learning experience (or some portion thereof), resulting in memory retrieval.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7577560/#

 

[Write4U]

Do better than just making some shit up, using meaningless terms of my own invention, you mean?

You're the one who insists on "using your own words". Now you complain that I am using my own words. Make up your mind.

 

[James R]

Moderator note: This thread has drifted far off the original topic.

Most of the people left in the discussion apparently agree that the brain is necessary for consciousness, so I think it's fair to say we have reached consensus on the thread topic, for the most part.

Time to close the thread.