Is the brain a computer?

[Magical Realist]

” The point is not that the claim “The brain is a digital computer” is false. Rather it does not get up to the level of falsehood. It does not have a clear sense. You will have misunderstood my account if you think that I am arguing that it is simply false that the brain is a digital computer. The question “Is the brain a digital computer?” is as ill defined as the questions “Is it an abacus?”, “Is it a book?”, “Is it a set of symbols?”, “Is it a set of mathematical formula?”---John Searle

 

[Write4U]

” The point is not that the claim “The brain is a digital computer” is false. Rather it does not get up to the level of falsehood. It does not have a clear sense. You will have misunderstood my account if you think that I am arguing that it is simply false that the brain is a digital computer. The question “Is the brain a digital computer?” is as ill defined as the questions “Is it an abacus?”, “Is it a book?”, “Is it a set of symbols?”, “Is it a set of mathematical formula?”---John Searle

IMO,
Except for the terms "digital computer" and "abacus", those examples are all irrelevant. One of the reasons for the computing argument is that brains do not deal with "numbers" but with generic biochemical interactive "values" that are being processed and yield "results", following certain natural mathematical/physical processes.

The brain is a biological data processing machine and evidence lies in one of its most important regulatory functions of the subconscious brain, "homeostasis", the constant maintenance of the body's physical and chemical balance via calculations of "differential equations" of biochemical values.

Homeostasis

State of steady internal conditions maintained by living things.
In biology, homeostasis is the state of steady internal physical and chemical conditions maintained by living systems. This is the condition of optimal functioning for the organism and includes many variables, such as body temperature and fluid balance, being kept within certain pre-set limits. Other variables include the pH of extracellular fluid, the concentrations of sodium, potassium, and calcium ions,... Wikipedia

I believe the term "Master equation" applies here.

Master equation

Equations governing time evolution of physical systems.
In physics, chemistry, and related fields, master equations are used to describe the time evolution of a system that can be modeled as being in a probabilistic combination of states at any given time, and the switching between states is determined by a transition rate matrix. The equations are a set of differential equations – over time – of the... Wikipedia

The Homeostatic part of the brain maintains the desired "ratios" of the prevailing differential equations, in accordance to evolved biochemical efficiencies. This system is autonomous and does not rely on conscious control.
Homeostasis remains active even when the "organism" is under anesthesia.

Anyway, this is how I see the processing of the system's "biological values" i.e. calculation/computation. Apparently this does not necessarily require a brain, but is already functional in cellular interactions ( see slimemold). The evolution of neural networks allowed for the formation a central processing organ (brain) to develop.

Note the schematic homeostatic variations that emerged as species gradually adapted to their environment.

Example;


Does an octopus know what colour it is?

The above mentioned abilities are made even more remarkable by the fine control that octopuses have over these individual elements. You probably already know that octopuses are one of the smartest animals on Earth, so these abilities might not surprise you. But, what if we told you that octopuses are actually colourblind? It's true. Octopuses only have one type of receptor in their eyes, which means they are completely colourblind, only seeing the world in shades of grey.

Fortunately, octopuses have two really awesome tricks up their eight sleeves to deal with this. The first is in their arms - even though they can't see colour, they can feel it (no jokes). Using chemicals called opsins in tiny fibres on their arms, octopuses can sense colour by the changes in the wavelengths of light reaching these receptors.

more ... https://www.aquarium.co.za/news/how-does-an-octopus-change-its-colour-and-shape#

The octopus' body itself is a computing machine.[/quote]

 

[davewhite04]

As for the subject title goes, yes the brain is just a computer as A.I. is proven as we speak.

 

[Magical Realist]

"Throughout history we have used technological systems as metaphors to describe how the body and brain might work. Early on, Greek water technology led to the four humors, and that they must be kept in balance. By the eighteenth century both clock mechanisms and flows of fluids were used as metaphors for what happened in the brain, and by the first half of the twentieth century a common metaphor for the brain was a telephone switching network. Indeed, the mathematics that had been developed for signal propagation in telegraph and telephone wires were used to model action potentials in axons. By the sixties, cyberneticians were using models of negative feedback originally developed for the steam engine, and greatly expanded upon during the war of the forties for controlling the aiming of guns, to try develop models for the brain. But these soon ran out of steam, so to speak, and were supplanted in the general consciousness by metaphors of the brain as a digital computer. One started to hear claims of the brain as the hardware, and the mind as the software, a model that really did not end up helping our understanding of either the brain or the mind very much at all. Throughout the later parts of the twentieth century the brain became a massively parallel digital supercomputer, and now one can find claims that the brain and the world wide web are similar in how they work with webpages and neurons playing similar roles, while hyperlinks and synapses map to each other.

Stepping back from this one might suspect that metaphors for the brain will continue to evolve as technology evolves, with the brain always corresponding to the most complex technology we currently possess. One should therefore expect the metaphors for the brain to continue to evolve along with our technology."---- Rodney Brooks, robotics and AI pioneer

https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25336

 

[Write4U]

one can find claims that the brain and the world wide web are similar in how they work with webpages and neurons playing similar roles, while hyperlinks and synapses map to each other.

I think that the definition "digital computer" is too narrow because the neural network processes both electric and chemical data, which adds an extra dimension of biochemistry to the equations.
Perhaps the term "biological computer" is more descriptive of the beast?

 

[James R]

Question: If my brain produces the equation that 2 + 2 = 4 , is it doing computation?

Actually, in that case, probably not. It's far more likely to be a memorised fact that you recalled.

 

[James R]

The brain is a biological data processing machine and evidence lies in one of its most important regulatory functions of the subconscious brain, "homeostasis"...

By that measure, would you consider the thermostat that turns your air conditioner on and off a "data processing machine", then?

The Homeostatic part of the brain maintains the desired "ratios" of the prevailing differential equations, in accordance to evolved biochemical efficiencies. This system is autonomous and does not rely on conscious control.

Just like a thermostat.

Homeostasis remains active even when the "organism" is under anesthesia.

Just like a thermostat, which is always "under anesthesia" (not conscious).

Anyway, this is how I see the processing of the system's "biological values" i.e. calculation/computation.

So, by your measure, a thermostat 'processing' the ambient "temperature values" is also carrying out a computation?

That sets a very low bar for what you mean by computation or data processing, don't you think?

Apparently this does not necessarily require a brain, but is already functional in cellular interactions ( see slimemold).

A thermostat doesn't require a brain, either.

The evolution of neural networks allowed for the formation a central processing organ (brain) to develop.

You're just stating a tautology. The brain is an organic neural network.

 

[Write4U]

That sets a very low bar for what you mean by computation or data processing, don't you think?

Not at all. IMO, all data processing that yields a "result" is a computation.

Where would you set the bar when data processing becomes computation?

The brain is an organic neural network.

Except for an emergent consciousness, what does a brain do that is different than all data processing in Eukaryotic organisms, whether they have a brain or not?

 

[Yazata]

Is the brain a computer?

I'll say that I believe that it is, in the broader sense that it's an information-processing system.

But its architecture and mode of function seems to be dramatically different than that of today's conventional algorithmic stored-program computers.

The key to understanding how brains work might perhaps be found in today's neural network computing that is dramatically transforming AI as we speak. I think that might be the case and suspect that kind of architecture is much more similar to brain architecture, both anatomically and functionally.

It's taught from large data sets rather than programmed with determined algorithms, for one thing. Size, interconnectedness and (yes) randomness of the network become strengths. (There's not enough information stored in human DNA to determine all neural interconnections and the 'settings' of all their countless synapses.) Memory might not be stored on memory drives but rather in how the whole network is configured by turning synapses up or down, we might say.

(Which suggests that it might be foolish to imagine downloading a person's memory or personality from their brain. You would have to download the detailed description of the entire network.)

 

[Write4U]

Which suggests that it might be foolish to imagine downloading a person's memory from their brain. You would have to download their entire brain,)

I believe that memories are stored in special stable neurons by category

Neurons are usually regarded as post-mitotic cells that undergo apoptosis in response to cell cycle reactivation. Nevertheless, recent evidence indicates the existence of a defined developmental program that induces DNA replication in specific populations of neurons, which remain in a tetraploid state for the rest of their adult life. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4418291/#

And this pleasant surprise: An AI search assistant "C0pilot"

Copilot: Hello, this is Bing! I’m the new AI-powered chat mode of Microsoft Bing that can help you quickly get information about how do engrams form .

You: what are the types of engrams?

Copilot: Engrams can be categorized into different types based on their characteristics and the underlying neural processes. Here are some common types of engrams:

1. Spatial Engrams: These engrams are associated with spatial memory and navigation. They involve the hippocampus and related brain regions. Spatial engrams help us remember locations, routes, and maps. For example, when you recall the layout of your home or a familiar neighborhood, you’re activating spatial engrams.
   
   
2. Emotional Engrams: Emotional memories are encoded by engrams in brain regions like the amygdala. These engrams play a crucial role in remembering emotional experiences, both positive and negative. For instance, the memory of a joyful celebration or a traumatic event involves emotional engrams.
   
   
3. Motor Engrams: These engrams are linked to motor skills and movements. They reside in the motor cortex and other motor-related areas. When you learn to ride a bike, play an instrument, or type on a keyboard, motor engrams are formed to store the necessary sequences of movements.
   
   
4. Associative Engrams: These engrams connect different pieces of information. They allow us to link related concepts, experiences, or facts. Associative engrams are essential for learning and problem-solving. For example, remembering that Paris is the capital of France involves associative engrams.
   
   
5. Sensory Engrams: Sensory memories, such as visual, auditory, or olfactory experiences, are encoded by sensory engrams. Visual engrams, for instance, help us recognize faces, objects, and scenes. Auditory engrams store sounds and voices we’ve heard.
6. 
   6. Conceptual Engrams: These engrams represent abstract ideas, knowledge, and concepts. They involve widespread cortical networks. When you understand mathematical principles, historical events, or scientific theories, conceptual engrams are at work.

1. https://www.bing.com/chat?q=how+do+...995F08F91CB99&ghsh=0&ghacc=0&ghpl=&showconv=1

 

[James R]

Not at all. IMO, all data processing that yields a "result" is a computation.

So, regarding your air conditioner thermostat:

1. Is the thermostat "processing data" when it switches the air con on or off?
2. Does the thermostat carry out a "computation"?

Where would you set the bar when data processing becomes computation?

What's the difference?

Can you please define the terms "data processing" and "computation" for me?

I assume you have some meaning or other in mind.

Except for an emergent consciousness, what does a brain do that is different than all data processing in Eukaryotic organisms, whether they have a brain or not?

Your question doesn't make sense.

Organic brains, where they exist, are all parts of eukaryotic organisms. Brains presumably process data. (I'm assuming however you're defining "data processing", it will include what brains do.) So, part of the processing of data by an eukaryotic organism is whatever processing the brain is doing in that organism. It then makes no sense to ask what the brain is doing differently compared to all data processing in the organism. What the brain is doing is not at all different from what the brain is doing, obviously, and it is doing at least some of the data processing.

Probably you meant to ask what brains do differently compared to other things that do data processing in eukaryotic organisms - especially ones that don't have brains. I guess the answer to that is: the brains differ in that they do the things that only brains can do, while the non-brains don't do the things that only brains can do.

This seems like a no brainer! (See what I did there?)

 

[Write4U]

So, regarding your air conditioner thermostat:

1. Is the thermostat "processing data" when it switches the air con on or off?
2. Does the thermostat carry out a "computation"?

1. Yep, yes it indicates a change in temperature, relative to a calibrated mean.

In summary, thermometers measure temperature by detecting changes in physical properties (like the volume of a liquid or electrical resistance) that vary consistently with temperature. This allows us to quantify the temperature in a reliable and repeatable way.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=does a thermometer compute temperatures&pc=GD01&form=GDAVST&ptag=3601

What's the difference?

The difference lies in the machine that does the computing, which does not only include the digital computer, but any form data processor capable of returning a "result". (all computation is mathematically based data processing)

Can you please define the terms "data processing" and "computation" for me?

I'll let Copilot do the answering

"Certainly! Let’s explore the relationship between computing and data processing:"

1. Data Processing:
   • Definition: Data processing involves the collection and manipulation of digital data to produce meaningful information. It encompasses various processes, including validation, sorting, summarization, aggregation, analysis, reporting, and classification1.
   • Manual Data Processing: Historically, data processing was performed manually for millennia. For example, bookkeeping involved posting transactions and producing reports. Mechanical or electronic calculators were later used to augment manual methods1.
   • Automatic Data Processing: The term “automatic data processing” refers to operations performed using unit record equipment, such as Herman Hollerith’s punched card system for the 1890 United States Census. This system significantly reduced processing time and costs compared to manual methods1.
2. Computing:
   • Definition: Computing involves the manipulation of data by a computer. It includes converting raw data into machine-readable form, processing data through the CPU and memory, and formatting or transforming the output2.
   • Components of Computer-Based Data Processing:
     • Input: Data is received as input.
     • Process: A program processes the data, performing calculations, manipulations, or organization to create understandable information.
     • Output: Processed information is displayed as output to the user.
     • Storage: The computer can store the created information for later use 3.

In summary, computing is indeed a form of data processing. Computers take input data, process it using programs, and generate meaningful information as output. Whether manual or automatic, data processing is at the core of computing! 1, 3 , 2.

https://www.bing.com/search? =generic%20computing&qs=SYC&showconv=1&sendquery=1&FORM=ASCHT2&sp=11&lq=0
No, I have expressed the mind's meaning as clear as I am able.

Your question doesn't make sense.

IMO, there are many natural computational processes going on aside from human made data processors.

Computational chemistry

Computational chemistry is a branch of chemistry that uses computer simulations to assist in solving chemical problems.[1] It uses methods of theoretical chemistry incorporated into computer programs to calculate the structures and properties of molecules, groups of molecules, and solids.[2]

The importance of this subject stems from the fact that, with the exception of some relatively recent findings related to the hydrogen molecular ion (dihydrogen cation), achieving an accurate quantum mechanical depiction of chemical systems analytically, or in a closed form, is not feasible.[3]

The complexity inherent in the many-body problem exacerbates the challenge of providing detailed descriptions of quantum mechanical systems.[4] While computational results normally complement information obtained by chemical experiments, it can occasionally predict unobserved chemical phenomena.[5]

A dichromium metal complex with electrostatic field surrounding it. Modelled using WebMO.[6]

Overview[edit]

Computational chemistry differs from theoretical chemistry, which involves a mathematical description of chemistry. However, computation chemistry involves the usage of computer programs and additional mathematical skills in order to accurately model various chemical problems. In theoretical chemistry, chemists, physicists, and mathematicians develop algorithms and computer programs to predict atomic and molecular properties and reaction paths for chemical reactions. Computational chemists, in contrast, may simply apply existing computer programs and methodologies to specific chemical questions.[7]

Historically, computational chemistry has had two different aspects:

• Computational studies, used to find a starting point for a laboratory synthesis or to assist in understanding experimental data, such as the position and source of spectroscopic peaks.[8]
• Computational studies, used to predict the possibility of so far entirely unknown molecules or to explore reaction mechanisms not readily studied via experiments.[8]

These aspects, along with computational chemistry's purpose, have resulted in a whole host of algorithms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_chemistry

Organic brains, where they exist, are all parts of eukaryotic organisms. Brains presumably process data. (I'm assuming however you're defining "data processing", it will include what brains do.) So, part of the processing of data by an eukaryotic organism is whatever processing the brain is doing in that organism. It then makes no sense to ask what the brain is doing differently compared to all data processing in the organism.

Exactly, that is the point you are disputing. All data processing that results in measurable change, is a form of computing.

Probably you meant to ask what brains do differently compared to other things that do data processing in eukaryotic organisms - especially ones that don't have brains. I guess the answer to that is: the brains differ in that they do the things that only brains can do, while the non-brains don't do the things that only brains can do.

No, that is your position! My position is that ALL data processing in ALL Eukaryotes is done by microtubules and that makes the microtubule networks do data processing and/or computing.

This seems like a no brainer! (See what I did there?)

Yes, you completely miss the point that all computable data in Eukaryotes is processed by microtubules in both the "non-neural cytological MT network" and the "neural MT network", including the brain.

Note: Microtubules are a common denominator in all Eukaryotic life, regardless of the presence of neurons or brain.

 

[Write4U]

To Find Life in the Universe, Find the Computation
The discovery that life on Earth looks a lot like information propagating itself offers new clues, and new directions, to the hunt for life elsewhere

Pull these threads together, and life begins to look like information controlling matter to propagate. And that happens through processes that we would call computation—the shuffling and combination and recombination of information through algorithms that are themselves written in that same information.

If we ever find life elsewhere we should look for the presence of microtubules.

We are beginning to use artificial microtubules for a range of applications.

Artificial microtubules for rapid and collective transport of magnetic microcargoes

Abstract

Directed transport of microcargoes is essential for living organisms as well as for applications in microrobotics, nanotechnology and biomedicine. Existing delivery technologies often suffer from low speeds, limited navigation control and dispersal by cardiovascular flows.

In cell biology, these issues are largely overcome by cytoskeletal motors that carry vesicles along microtubule highways. Thus inspired, here we developed an artificial microtubule (AMT), a structured microfibre with embedded micromagnets that serve as stepping stones to guide particles rapidly through flow networks.

Compared with established techniques, the microcargo travels an order of magnitude faster using the same driving frequency, and dispersal is mitigated by a strong dynamic anchoring effect. Even against strong fluid flows, the large local magnetic-field gradients enable both anchoring and guided propulsion.

Finally, we show that AMTs can facilitate the self-assembly of microparticles into active-matter clusters, which then enhance their walking speed by bridging over stepping stones collectively. Hence, we demonstrate a unique strategy for robust delivery inside microvascular networks and for minimally invasive interventions, with non-equilibrium effects that could be equally relevant for enhancing biological transport processes.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s42256-022-00510-7

 

[Seattle]

Octopuses aren't one of the smartest animals on Earth. They are smart for an invertebrate. They might be in the same category, in that regard, as a dog.

As far as the brain as computer analogy, that's not accurate. There is a memory bank where memories are recalled. They are recreated each time from many different area of the brain, areas to recall smell, sight, emotion, etc.

 

[Write4U]

Octopuses aren't one of the smartest animals on Earth. They are smart for an invertebrate. They might be in the same category, in that regard, as a dog.

Apart from humans, how do dogs stack up to other great apes?

As far as the brain as computer analogy, that's not accurate. There is a memory bank where memories are recalled. They are recreated each time from many different area of the brain, areas to recall smell, sight, emotion, etc.

And how do we partition computer memories?

AFAIK, Octopuses have excellent "problem solving" abilities, and that is a major factor in learning and adapting. Both abilities are favored by natural selection.

Octopus Problem Solving: Unraveling the Mysteries of Cephalopod Intelligence

Octopuses are fascinating creatures that have captured the attention of scientists and nature enthusiasts alike. These intelligent and highly adaptable animals possess remarkable problem-solving abilities, which have been the subject of extensive research. From opening jars to escaping enclosures, octopuses have demonstrated their remarkable cognitive skills and problem-solving prowess.

In this article, we will explore the fascinating world of octopus problem solving, delving into the various techniques and strategies these cephalopods employ to overcome challenges. So, let’s dive in and uncover the secrets of octopus problem solving.

The octopus brain is quite different from that of other animals. While humans have a centralized brain, the octopus has a decentralized nervous system. Two-thirds of their neurons are found in their arms, allowing them to process information independently. This decentralized structure enables octopuses to multitask and solve problems in a unique and efficient manner.

Furthermore, the octopus brain exhibits an impressive level of plasticity, which means it can adapt and change its neural connections based on its experiences. This adaptability allows octopuses to learn from their surroundings and adjust their problem-solving strategies accordingly.

more ...
https://animalatlantes.com/octopus-problem-solving/#

Consider the environment and the survival skills that are required for an unprotected animal.

 

[Seattle]

At the Seattle Aquarium one was smart enough to move the lid on its tank and crawl down the side to the floor. It wasn't smart enough to not do that so it died on the floor.

 

[Write4U]

At the Seattle Aquarium one was smart enough to move the lid on its tank and crawl down the side to the floor. It wasn't smart enough to not do that so it died on the floor.

It got lost, so what?
And how many people die in the wilderness 30 yards from their own camp. Not smart enough to survive in an alien environment?

If we compare this feat of problem solving we can readily see the advanced intelligence at work.

 

[Seattle]

I didn't imply that they weren't intelligent or capable of solving problems. They are a mollusk though.

 

[James R]

1. Yep, yes it indicates a change in temperature, relative to a calibrated mean.

A thermostat is performing a computation, is it?

Do you believe that every reaction to any stimulus at all amounts to a computation, then?

When a block of ice melts in the sun, is it performing a computation?
When an apple is blown off a tree by the wind, is the apple (or the wind) performing a computation?
When a sunflower faces towards the sun, is it performing a computation?
When you pull too hard on the seatbelt in your car and it locks in place, is the seatbelt performing a computation?

Are all of these things examples of "data processing"?

I'll let Copilot do the answering

Are you outsourcing your thinking to Copilot these days?

Am I going to have a conversation with you, or should I cut out the middle man and just talk to Copilot directly?

All data processing that results in measurable change, is a form of computing.

So you would consider all of the examples I just gave to be forms of computing?

My position is that ALL data processing in ALL Eukaryotes is done by microtubules...

Your digestive system processes food and produces shit as one of the outputs. Is this the work of microtubules? Is it data processing?

Yes, you completely miss the point that all computable data...

Wait! This is new. What is "computable data" and how does it differ from other kinds of data? What other kinds are there?

Note: Microtubules are a common denominator in all Eukaryotic life, regardless of the presence of neurons or brain.

Cells are a common denominator in all eukaryotic life. So what?

The discovery that life on Earth looks a lot like information propagating itself offers new clues, and new directions, to the hunt for life elsewhere

Information can't propagate itself.

If we ever find life elsewhere we should look for the presence of microtubules.

Why?

We are beginning to use artificial microtubules for a range of applications.

Like in transporting things, similar to putting water through a pipe?

 

[Write4U]

I didn't imply that they weren't intelligent or capable of solving problems. They are a mollusk though.

A very smart mollusk.