Is SciFo a science forum?

DaveC426913 said:
I'd have put it a little more succinctly. :smile:

The null hypothesis essentially states that there isn't a relationship between two things unless it is shown statistically to be so.

One does not start off assuming something (like a drug) is effective. One starts off assuming there is no effect, and that the onus is on the data to show there is some efficacy.

Sort of: it ain't so till it's so.

It is critical to objective research, and it exactly the thing that many fringe proponents here don't employ when it comes to paranormal phenom.
Click to expand...

Of course

Because the paranormal is beyond just mathematical statistics .

It is a real thing .
 
river said:
Of course

Because the paranormal is beyond just mathematical statistics .

It is a real thing .
Click to expand...
A real thing isn't beyond statistics. If it's claimed that prayer is effective in treating an illness a proper test has to show that, in fact, more people recover than would be the case without prayer. Saying that prayer is effective but beyond statistics is just nonsense.
 
Seattle said:
A real thing isn't beyond statistics. If it's claimed that prayer is effective in treating an illness a proper test has to show that, in fact, more people recover than would be the case without prayer. Saying that prayer is effective but beyond statistics is just nonsense.
Click to expand...

What test of prayer ?
 
river said:
What test of prayer ?
Click to expand...
Prayer can be tested, and has been to some extent.

For example, one study was done in which religious people were asked to pray for certain patients in hospital. The medical outcomes of those patients were then compared to the outcomes of patients with the same illnesses/issues who were not prayed for. The result was that the prayed-for group did no better than the control group, statistically.
 
James R said:
Prayer can be tested, and has been to some extent.

For example, one study was done in which religious people were asked to pray for certain patients in hospital. The medical outcomes of those patients were then compared to the outcomes of patients with the same illnesses/issues who were not prayed for. The result was that the prayed-for group did no better than the control group, statistically.
Click to expand...
I think another finding from that study was that if the patient knew someone was praying for them they did do better statistically.
 
origin said:
I think another finding from that study was that if the patient knew someone was praying for them they did do better statistically.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's why they control for that in a double blind test. The patients were unaware of the test, the test givers weren't aware of which group they were monitoring, etc. to rule out the placebo effect.
 
Last edited:
origin said:
I think another finding from that study was that if the patient knew someone was praying for them they did do better statistically.
Click to expand...
Seattle said:
Yes, that's why the control for that in a double blind test. The patients were unaware of the test, the test givers weren't aware of which group they were monitoring, etc. to rule out the placebo effect.
Click to expand...

Aye, I recall hearing about that as well. The effect was, largely, attributed to the fact that having people caring for and thinking about them helped motivate people. Stupid as it sounds, the will to live is a thing - if you convince yourself you are going to die, and honestly believe it, there is a good chance it will happen. Meanwhile, if you convince yourself you will beat, say, cancer, then the treatment is more likely to be more successful.

Placebo Effect is a helluva drug in the end... obviously, in many situations, it is no replacement for treatment (you most likely aren't going to just wish away a tumor) but believing you aren't just gonna up and die is a major help. It's part of why Children's hospitals (such as St. Jude) focus so much on not just the treatment, but the emotional side of things, helping keep kids spirits up and making them happy and comfortable where they can.
 
Kittamaru said:
Aye, I recall hearing about that as well. The effect was, largely, attributed to the fact that having people caring for and thinking about them helped motivate people. Stupid as it sounds, the will to live is a thing - if you convince yourself you are going to die, and honestly believe it, there is a good chance it will happen. Meanwhile, if you convince yourself you will beat, say, cancer, then the treatment is more likely to be more successful.

Placebo Effect is a helluva drug in the end... obviously, in many situations, it is no replacement for treatment (you most likely aren't going to just wish away a tumor) but believing you aren't just gonna up and die is a major help. It's part of why Children's hospitals (such as St. Jude) focus so much on not just the treatment, but the emotional side of things, helping keep kids spirits up and making them happy and comfortable where they can.
Click to expand...

In the study I'm thinking of, the placebo effect didn't make anyone live that had terminal cancer but it did extend their lives by a few months in some cases.

The study I'm thinking about was with people who had terminal cancer. Most died ultimately, as always a few beat it and it's just a matter of determining statistically if more beat it with prayer (they did not).

It's a good approach though, to use terminal cancer patients, as many other problems that people can have are self-correcting ultimately. You will get over a cold, or a bone will repair itself with or without prayer.
 
origin said:
I think another finding from that study was that if the patient knew someone was praying for them they did do better statistically.
Click to expand...
I was wrong, I looked it up (prayer study) and the study indicated that people who knew they were being prayed for did statistically worse!

The researchers theorized that the patients did worse because they thought something along the lines of, "If people are praying for me I must really be in bad shape".

I guess the best thing to do for a loved one who has had a triple bypass is to tell them you signed them up for a 5k that is being run in 2 months...
 
river said:
Because the paranormal is beyond just mathematical statistics .
Click to expand...
Ah yes, the ol' It's tooo mysteeeeriousssss!

What you are, in essence saying, is the paranormal is not conceivable by rational minds.

(Of course, the corollary that of that is: the paranormal is certainly conceivable by irrational minds.)
 
Magical Realist said:
Really? How does a mass of grey wrinkled meat in our heads generate consciousness?
Click to expand...

We may not know the exact specifics of the "why" or "how", but we know the "where" to a very certain degree... case in point, death or destruction of the brain results in the cessation of consciousness of the individual.
 
Magical Realist said:
Really? How does a mass of grey wrinkled meat in our heads generate consciousness?
Click to expand...
How should I know exactly how it occurs.
I can certainly conceive of consciousness with out knowing how it exactly works.

I guess you meant a rational person cannot say exactly how consciousness arises from our brains?
 
origin said:
How should I know exactly how it occurs.
I can certainly conceive of consciousness with out knowing how it exactly works.

I guess you meant a rational person cannot say exactly how consciousness arises from our brains?
Click to expand...

Right..we can't very well say what consciousness is if we can't even explain how it arises. It is a mystery in its origin and nature.
 
Magical Realist said:
Right..we can't very well say what consciousness is if we can't even explain how it arises. It is a mystery in its origin and nature.
Click to expand...
Right (as far as I know), but we certainly can test to see if someone is conscious!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top