Is it possible to believe in God, and be a darwinist at the same time?

[wegs]

Girl you hit the nail with the hammer . Remember we human bare the spirit of God we are creative and much more creative then any animal. The ape have not gone to the moon we did , we are creating robot which is an intention to make human . God did it millions of years ago

lol, okay. can you clarify what you mean by millions of years ago? I always like to ask first, instead of putting words into people's mouths.

there have been studies done tracing back through the Biblical lineage to Adam (the first human that God created, if you believe that Genesis is a literal translation) which spans roughly, a little over 6,000 years ago. And of course, no evolutionary process is indicated in the Bible, that took place to get man to where Adam 'began.' (following exclusively Genesis)

I believe in the theory of evolution, yet with a Creator behind it.
From this exchange, I gather you don't believe that--and that you feel Genesis is literal? But, if you do, just know, the lineage only dates back to Adam being created some 6000 years ago. This is important because we know, have proof, of a ''pre-adam'' man, so to speak. How can a believer explain that, while clinging to the literal, historical translation of Genesis? Just some food for thought.

I don't firmly believe that Genesis is literal, but more metephorical.
Check this out when you can; I'M NOT TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR VIEW. But, you might find it interesting.

Leon R. Kass (The Beginning of Wisdom: Reading Genesis)

He is noted as saying..."We can learn most from the story [of Adam and Eve] by regarding it as a mythical yet realistic portrait of permanent truths about our humanity, rather than as a historical yet idealised portrait of a blissful existence we once enjoyed but lost."

 

[wegs]

@ arauca...more on this, that i found that is to the point above.


Regarding Adam and Eve:

Different scholars have calculated different dates for the creation of Adam and Eve, but they are all in the same range, a couple of hundred years either side of 4000BC.
- 3895 BC (Dr Stephen E. Jones),
- 4004 BC (Bishop Ussher, perhaps the best-known),
- 4169 BC (Barry Setterfield)

**I post all this IF you believe that Genesis is a literal translation of the origin of man. Just to give u some good for thought. **

 

[sideshowbob]

The ape have not gone to the moon we did....

Necessity is the mother of invention. Maybe the apes didn't "need" to go to the moon and we did.

(Actiually, the apes who had a need for a certain kind of creativity became us.)

 

[arauca]

Necessity is the mother of invention. Maybe the apes didn't "need" to go to the moon and we did.

(Actiually, the apes who had a need for a certain kind of creativity became us.)

If man does not protect the apes they will get wiped out of existence. So they really have the need to survive, but they don't know they are getting wiped out.

 

[arauca]

lol, okay. can you clarify what you mean by millions of years ago? I always like to ask first, instead of putting words into people's mouths.

I might have exaggerated millions , but Neanderthal man remains were found in Europa which are about 400000 years old and there are some older called humanoid remains . Should we ignore that ?
Those human like neanderthal have not left us any writing on what they believed nor in whom . But I believe God watching His creation and his project have flourished we can see at the present
There are evidence that man have created pottery about 18 000 years ago agriculture about 12000 years ago, Fire have used by humanoid close to one million years ago.
Yes I believe in God's creation of the earth and our atmosphere. ( In Genesis says no thing about universe ) and I am satisfied with that .
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there have been studies done tracing back through the Biblical lineage to Adam (the first human that God created, if you believe that Genesis is a literal translation) which spans roughly, a little over 6,000 years ago. And of course, no evolutionary process is indicated in the Bible, that took place to get man to where Adam 'began.' (following exclusively Genesis)

From Adam there is the genealogy of the Hebrews which I believe is in Genesis chapter 5 , If you look closely they exclude Cain and mention Cain in chapter 4 , But the interesting thing that it mentions he left to the land of Nod , to me it saying there were some other people , were he got himself wife's. Cain was afraid in the land of Nod "
14 Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the land; and from Thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer in the earth; and it will come to pass, that whosoever findeth me will slay me.'
15 And the LORD said unto him: 'Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.' And the LORD set a sign for Cain, lest any finding him should smite him."
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I believe in the theory of evolution, yet with a Creator behind it.

So do I
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From this exchange, I gather you don't believe that--and that you feel Genesis is literal? But, if you do, just know, the lineage only dates back to Adam being created some 6000 years ago. This is important because we know, have proof, of a ''pre-adam'' man, so to speak. How can a believer explain that, while clinging to the literal, historical translation of Genesis? Just some food for thought.

What ever was in the beginning or how was made is our speculation . I believe God resided to make a robot and the robot is me and you . same is like a robotnik engineer he create the object and little by little makes improvement
eventually he will perfect him so , the robot will want to take over . And that is the situation now between God and us.




He is noted as saying..."We can learn most from the story [of Adam and Eve] by regarding it as a mythical yet realistic portrait of permanent truths about our humanity, rather than as a historical yet idealised portrait of a blissful existence we once enjoyed but lost."

Yes we can learn a lot from the bible .specially from the New Testament on how to tolerate each other , and how not to let our desires take over our life .
What ever was in the beginning or how was made is our speculation . I believe God resided to make a robot and the robot is me and you . same is like a robotnik engineer he create the object and little by little makes improvement
eventually he will perfect him so , the robot will want to take over . And that is the situation now between God and us

 

[Jan Ardena]

Magical Realist,

"Algerbra" and "grammer" are mandatory subjects in school. So yes they are forced on students. And the govt is in charge of that.

These subjects aren't world views. The theory of evolution as propose by Darwin (today neo-darwinism) is not a proven fact.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

billvon,

Yep, and so also are the chimps brougnt up under a certain controlled environment (a false world), compared to their real world counterparts.

Right. And people who live in our world (a false world) don't do well when confined to a valley in the middle of the Sahara Desert (i.e. the "real world.")

The chimps ''controlled environment'' is one of being raised 100% in captivety, meaning it has no idea of it's natural habitat.
Why is our world false?

That's because those that are fully emersed in it hath doth said in their heart, there is no God.

No. Just because you cannot understand how there can be a God and still have evolution proceed does not mean that no one understands it.

Oh! There can be a God alright. You just take away some of God's attributes and voila, darwinistic evolution becomes possible. But why darwinian evolution in the first place? To diminish God's attributes? It certainly seems that way. Once one accepts it as truth, God can becomes obsolete. At last! You are now intellectualy fulfilled (as an atheist) because now you have reason to not believe in God.

The Pope is perhaps the leading theist in the world. He understood evolution.

Why is he?

Well, no. The answer is that YOU can't figure it out.

Can you figure it out?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Since when is micromanaging an indicator of sovereignty? I'd say it's more likely an indicator of insecurity.

God's sovereignty is His independant authority over material nature.
If God exists, there is no question of anything happening outside of, or inspite of His authority He is the sole, Supreme Controller.
So if darwinistic ideas of evolution occur, it does so regardless of whether God authorises it or not which means God's role is diminished, or worse.

jan.

 

[Sarkus]

These subjects aren't world views. The theory of evolution as propose by Darwin (today neo-darwinism) is not a proven fact.

So is it that your issue is not that evolution occurs, but merely the mechanism by which it occurs?
After all, you're saying that the theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin is not a proven fact... which is correct... but you're not going so far as to say that evolution itself is not a fact?
If so, why does the fact of evolution not diminish God whereas you hold that the theories of evolution do?

 

[wegs]

God's sovereignty is His independant authority over material nature.
If God exists, there is no question of anything happening outside of, or inspite of His authority He is the sole, Supreme Controller.
So if darwinistic ideas of evolution occur, it does so regardless of whether God authorises it or not which means God's role is diminished, or worse.

jan.

Why would God's role be "diminished" in this sense?

If He is the Creator, it stands to reason that He had "in mind" an evolutionary process. This is why I believe faith is a not too distant cousin of science.

Curious what u mean there, jan.

 

[arauca]

I believe God is in charged of the project in the lab ( earth ) The project have a time scale to produce a product , but if certain anomaly occurs he has the ability to correct it . ( I an talking from a chemist stand point )
In essence I let things to cook but if for some reason things start to overheat , I interfere. Look at the Jewish Holocaust, not all were killed , but the prophesy of Isain 53 had to be fulfilled Jews will return to their homeland . He interfered so not all be killed .

 

[spidergoat]

If man does not protect the apes they will get wiped out of existence. So they really have the need to survive, but they don't know they are getting wiped out.

They might outlast the human race, you never know.

 

[sideshowbob]

If man does not protect the apes they will get wiped out of existence.

The dinosaurs got wiped out of existence. So what? All life gets wiped out of existence eventually, whether individual organisms or species or whole groups of species.

 

[sideshowbob]

If God exists, there is no question of anything happening outside of, or inspite of His authority He is the sole, Supreme Controller.

As I said, Supreme Controller doesn't necessarily mean Supreme Micromanager. God doesn't have to move every spider's foot one mllimeter at a time. He can just aim it at a fly and put it on autopilot. Similarly, he can create a system in which chemicals spontaneously form life and lifeforms spontaneously evolve into other lifeforms. It isn't less sovereign; it's just less anal.

 

[arauca]

The dinosaurs got wiped out of xistence. So what? All life gets wiped out of existence eventually, whether individual organisms or species or whole groups of species.

We are in different era . God create human in his own image ( not physical image ) He will save some and some will perish.

 

[billvon]

The chimps ''controlled environment'' is one of being raised 100% in captivety, meaning it has no idea of it's natural habitat. Why is our world false?

It is a controlled artificial environment, rather than a natural habitat.

 

[spidergoat]

Magical Realist,



These subjects aren't world views. The theory of evolution as propose by Darwin (today neo-darwinism) is not a proven fact.

jan.

Just as proven as the efficacy of Algebra.

 

[sideshowbob]

The theory of evolution as propose by Darwin (today neo-darwinism) is not a proven fact.

Just to clarify the terminology, a "theory" and a "fact" are two different things. A theory is never a fact. A theory is an explanation of a fact or set of facts.

The fact of evolution is indeed proven. Even creationists don't deny any more that evolution happens. They dispute the exlanation of how it works but they don't have a rational explanation of their own to replace it with. To repeat my earlier analogy, creationists don't deny that France exists but they disagree about where it is. They claim it's on the moon but they don't have anything to back up that claim. In fact, that claim is proven wrong.

 

[Grumpy]

Jan Ardena

The theory of evolution as propose by Darwin (today neo-darwinism) is not a proven fact.

Evolution is an observed fact, whether Darwin's explanation is valid or not. And Darwin proposed Natural Selection as the cause of the observed fact of evolution(that is Darwin's theory), that has not been falsified, it has only been added to. Proven? Nothing in life is ever proven outside of logic or math, and they are not about the real world but about stated premises. Darwin still stands, we've just found other, additional causes to add to Darwin's Natural Selection. Survival is still the criteria every evolutionary change is tested with, just like Darwin said.

If God exists, there is no question of anything happening outside of, or inspite of His authority He is the sole, Supreme Controller.

Oh, those pesky, unevidenced and batshit crazy ifs. The god you get from the Old Testament is a misogynist, psychopathic, control freak and petty tyrant I wouldn't want in my world, much less in my life. The god of Jesus is a loving Socialist and the god of the rest of the New Testament is a misogynist again(I think that was Paul's influence, he didn't like women at all). IE the god portrayed in the Bible reflected the society who invented him and the people in control of the religious apparatus of the time(a lot like today).

So if darwinistic ideas of evolution occur, it does so regardless of whether God authorises it or not which means God's role is diminished, or worse.

That is an ignorant, self-imposed, false dichotomy. Too bad that evolution is true(yes the "Darwinistic" kind), you've ruled out the existence of your idea of god(I think that's a good thing, maybe you'll look for a more realistic one, one that DOESN'T have such a problem with reality). But which pool player is more awesome, the one who has to line up every shot, or the one who hits the cue ball once and sinks every ball? A god that can say "Let There Be Light" and the Big Bang and all that followed proceeded from those first principles is a much more awesome god than one who must fiddle with every zygote to achieve the same outcome(you). Your idea of god is really wimpy, unrealistic and quite incompetent.

Oh! There can be a God alright. You just take away some of God's attributes and voila, darwinistic evolution becomes possible.

Actually, since evolution is not only possible, but HAS ALREADY happened(yes, "Darwinistic" evolution), according to your logic your god is already diminished, by you, by your ignorance of and inability to face reality, preferring instead an irrational world view that has only passing congruence with the real world.

Grumpy

 

[Aqueous Id]

I don't think He is punishing , He gave the free will to the natural processes

A child born with disability, disease and/or deformity is not capable of exercising free will.

Why does God punish the innocent?