Is it me or is this site in its death throes?

No..you were quite wrong about that. Nobody can know something that is incorrect. They can only believe it.

That's a weird statement. Classical example of knowing something is incorrect is Newton's laws instead of GR.

If 'knowledge' is 'justified true belief', then it would be impossible to have false knowledge. 'Belief' doesn't suffer from that restriction and we can believe things whether they are true or false.

In the case of knowing Newton's physics (assuming for the sake of argument that Newton's physics is false and not a true approximation), one can still truly know what Newton's laws were, even if those laws don't truly apply to the universe.

In a similar way, I can know what particular passages of the Bible say, without committing myself to the truth of those passages.
 
If 'knowledge' is 'justified true belief', then it would be impossible to have false knowledge. 'Belief' doesn't suffer from that restriction and we can believe things whether they are true or false.

In the case of knowing Newton's physics (assuming for the sake of argument that Newton's physics is false and not a true approximation), one can still truly know what Newton's laws were, even if those laws don't truly apply to the universe.

In a similar way, I can know what particular passages of the Bible say, without committing myself to the truth of those passages.
I was going to say something of the uncertainty principle but figured it wasn't fitting.

I can't say where this thread is headed.
 
Sorry if I'm taking you out of context here...A ufo is a ufo. The fun is in the claim for what that ufo is/was?

I agree. That's one reason why my degree of skepticism varies regarding ufos, depending on what kind of claims are being made.

If it's just 'I saw something in the sky that I couldn't identify', I have very few doubts. But if it's 'I saw an alien spaceship in the sky', I'm far more skeptical.

I'm inclined to weight evidence according to its subjective plausibility to me. I would give pretty much any sighting report a high plausibility rating if it was only being used to support the first proposition. But I'd probably give the same report much lower credence if it was being used to support the second alien spaceship claim.
 
Yazata,

I am sure both Kittamaru and Bells are not serious when they assert that eye witness testimony is bullshit.

Yes, if an eye witness is dishonest, then he may spread falsehood; similarly his perception of event he is witnessing may be flawed; but nonetheless this is the best mode of testimony. I will again emphasize the example (it appeared sarcastic to me for MR but quite valuable?) as given by James R, the eye witness account is good, very precise, but monk's conclusion based on his belief and know how at that time was bad. Now if we have access to that account by monk (subject to authenticity) then we can correlate that with the appearance of comet during that period.
 
Cop out? And me? You must be feeling anaemic after loosing 40 pounds.
Ah, there's the ad-hominem attacks you were talking about.

1. Your reference to MR ghost beliefs was unwarranted in this thread, in simple words it was nothing, no argument but adhominem attack on his person.
I made an entirely valid comparison between what he stated about my religious beliefs to his beliefs in the paranormal. If you dislike it, that's too bad; MR is the one that brought up personally held beliefs - I simply pointed out the similarities between what he was trying to ridicule (religion) and what he personally believes (aliens).

2. You do not understand the meaning of perception and how the transfer of 'perception' from a person to another person has the substantial risk of misinformation getting transmitted.
1) I was not aware you had a neural link with my head, and thus had intimate knowledge of what I understand and do not understand. Fascinating - you should share this ability and/or technology with the world at large, as it would no doubt be incredibly useful in helping law enforcement agencies and psychotherapists alike in their work.
2) Per Merriam Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perception
Definition of perception
1a : a result of perceiving : observation
1b : a mental image : concept
2 (obsolete) : consciousness
3a : awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation color perception
3b : physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience
4a : quick, acute, and intuitive cognition : appreciation
4b : a capacity for comprehension

I would say that, by every measure of the word, we were all aware of the chance for something to be lost in retelling / lost in translation. Again, what is it that makes you pick this particular battle, when it isn't even a battleground to begin with?

3. You have almost succeeded in cornering me by referring to my glass house. Bad very bad.
Sounds like an admission of guilt to me.

And BTW I have no intent of taking this up with James R through PM or otherwise. Now let's keep off,

Then I accept that you haven't a counter argument to make, nor feel your claim has merit enough to even bring up to the Administration. Thank you.

Kittamaru and Bells have tried to argue that eye-witness testimony is bullshit by its nature. Hence the loud but demonstrably false claims that there is no evidence for ufos, ghosts or (in a different context) religious miracles. (There's a vast body of evidence, probably more evidence than for most historical events.)

Hold the phone -my claim is not, and to the best of my recollection has never been, that "eye witness testimony is bullshit by nature" - my claim is that eye-witness testimony ALONE is insufficient evidence; extraordinary claims DEMAND extraordinary evidence, and simply saying "I saw a little green man with my own two peepers!" is not extraordinary evidence.

I think that MR's point there was that Kittamaru was sliding the goal-posts, employing some hugely stringent (but as yet unjustified) epistemological standard when it comes to MR's eye-witness reports of things like ghosts and ufos that are unwelcome to Kittamaru, but then reverting to a far looser credulity when it comes to his own Christian beliefs. MR was just pointing out that what works for risen-saviors and holy-ghosts works equally well for ufos and garden-variety ghosts.

I am curious, Yazata, as to why you are suddenly being deceptive in this.
In post 56, MR said:
History is what people who were there know happened.

I replied with the quote from MIB in post 57
Agent Kay said:
Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

This was, specifically, to make the point that just because people think they know something, they can be incorrect. Now, do you wish to contend that is incorrect?

MR responded with a personal attack:
You're confusing knowing with believing, which isn't surprising considering your Christian persuasion.

Tell me how much of your Bible is based on anecdotal accounts.

I responded with the contention that there is, in fact, more corroborating evidence for Religious claims (and that they are more aligned) than there is for the Paranormal claims MR repeatedly makes, and that it was ironic that MR is perfectly willing to accept said paranormal claims on far less evidence, yet will deride Religious claims vehemently, regardless the backing.

How you come to the conclusion that I am the one "moving the goalposts", I cannot even begin to comprehend. I made the comparison to illustrate the point that they are similar in terms of their sources of evidence, and yet MR accepts the one with the smaller body of evidence whilst dismissing the one with the larger body of evidence.

Now, if you wish to say there is more evidence for Paranormal Activity beyond the eye witness tellings... I would dearly love to see an actual, hands-on analysis of an alien craft or alien body, or perhaps a reasonable definition recorded interaction with an extra terrestrial. We live in an age where a large percentage of the World Population carries a high definition video camera with them at all times, after all.
 
I think that when people run out of things to say because they've already said them a hundred times over the years it causes a reduction in participation
 
Yazata,

I am sure both Kittamaru and Bells are not serious when they assert that eye witness testimony is bullshit.
Eye witness testimony is not a reproducible experiment.

Now I think with that said... Yeah, I'm lost.
 
Perhaps you can explain why you are arguing for the accuracy of anecdotal accounts with the Bible while at the same time dismissing them for real historical events. I mean nobody was there when the creation of the world happened, yet you accept that account as accurate why? Because Moses wrote it? How did he know what happened? How did he know about Noah's flood? Or Sodom and Gomorrah? Your religion teaches you that these scriptures were magically generated by God thru the hands of prophets who wrote them, making them infallible accounts. Can you explain how this process occurs and whether it is scientific or not?

Where did I argue that we had first hand accounts of Creation, Sodom and Gomorrah, or any of that? Kindly quote me, if you are able (hint - you won't be able, as I did not). There you go, being dishonest again and making claims for things that were never said. As I believe you have been given several warnings by James R regarding this, as recent as just two weeks ago, one would think you would learn a lesson of some sort.

No..you were quite wrong about that. Nobody can know something that is incorrect. They can only believe it.

Thankfully for the rest of us, you do not get to redefine the English language :)

Multiple eyewitness accounts aren't reproduced evidence? Since when?

You and two or three others witness "mysterious lights" in the sky at night.

A few days later, you are asked to reproduce it.

What do you do? Oh, you cannot.

You are being pedantic because you know you are on the losing side of the facts.
 
Kittamaru,.
Ah, there's the ad-hominem attacks you were talking about.


I made an entirely valid comparison between what he stated about my religious beliefs to his beliefs in the paranormal. If you dislike it, that's too bad; MR is the one that brought up personally held beliefs - I simply pointed out the similarities between what he was trying to ridicule (religion) and what he personally believes (aliens).


1) I was not aware you had a neural link with my head, and thus had intimate knowledge of what I understand and do not understand. Fascinating - you should share this ability and/or technology with the world at large, as it would no doubt be incredibly useful in helping law enforcement agencies and psychotherapists alike in their work.
2) Per Merriam Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perception
Definition of perception
1a : a result of perceiving : observation
1b : a mental image : concept
2 (obsolete) : consciousness
3a : awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation color perception
3b : physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience
4a : quick, acute, and intuitive cognition : appreciation
4b : a capacity for comprehension

I would say that, by every measure of the word, we were all aware of the chance for something to be lost in retelling / lost in translation. Again, what is it that makes you pick this particular battle, when it isn't even a battleground to begin with?

Sounds like an admission of guilt to me.



Then I accept that you haven't a counter argument to make, nor feel your claim has merit enough to even bring up to the Administration. Thank you.



Hold the phone -my claim is not, and to the best of my recollection has never been, that "eye witness testimony is bullshit by nature" - my claim is that eye-witness testimony ALONE is insufficient evidence; extraordinary claims DEMAND extraordinary evidence, and simply saying "I saw a little green man with my own two peepers!" is not extraordinary evidence.



I am curious, Yazata, as to why you are suddenly being deceptive in this.
In post 56, MR said:


I replied with the quote from MIB in post 57


This was, specifically, to make the point that just because people think they know something, they can be incorrect. Now, do you wish to contend that is incorrect?

MR responded with a personal attack:


I responded with the contention that there is, in fact, more corroborating evidence for Religious claims (and that they are more aligned) than there is for the Paranormal claims MR repeatedly makes, and that it was ironic that MR is perfectly willing to accept said paranormal claims on far less evidence, yet will deride Religious claims vehemently, regardless the backing.

How you come to the conclusion that I am the one "moving the goalposts", I cannot even begin to comprehend. I made the comparison to illustrate the point that they are similar in terms of their sources of evidence, and yet MR accepts the one with the smaller body of evidence whilst dismissing the one with the larger body of evidence.

Now, if you wish to say there is more evidence for Paranormal Activity beyond the eye witness tellings... I would dearly love to see an actual, hands-on analysis of an alien craft or alien body, or perhaps a reasonable definition recorded interaction with an extra terrestrial. We live in an age where a large percentage of the World Population carries a high definition video camera with them at all times, after all.

I am trying to bow out but you are not letting me, once upon a time I was at 95, thanks to Paddoboy's irritations, now I am at zero.

I have had some arguments with you in the past, my observation is that the best job you attempted to do was to screw Trump, you failed there too. I was quite straightforward in telling you that you should recuse from moderating science threads, now I feel you will make a good ordinary member here.
 
You and two or three others witness "mysterious lights" in the sky at night.

A few days later, you are asked to reproduce it.

What do you do? Oh, you cannot.

You are being pedantic because you know you are on the losing side of the facts.

One person sees something and gives an account. Another person sees the same thing and gives an account. The eyewitness testimony is thus reproduced.
 
Kittamaru,.
I am trying to bow out but you are not letting me, once upon a time I was at 95, thanks to Paddoboy's irritations, now I am at zero.

You were at 95, now you are at zero... what? Age? Shoe Size? Number of Watermelons on your Roof?

I have had some arguments with you in the past, my observation is that the best job you attempted to do was to screw Trump, you failed there too. I was quite straightforward in telling you that you should recuse from moderating science threads, now I feel you will make a good ordinary member here.

Then, as I said - take it up with James R - otherwise, quit whining when you fail to make a good argument ;)
 
As I believe you have been given several warnings by James R regarding this, as recent as just two weeks ago, one would think you would learn a lesson of some sort.

Oh I see. So now you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Is that what you are saying? How are the events in Genesis to be confirmed then?

Also lying about supposed warnings I have received is a violation of Sci Forum rules. I suggest you don't do that.
 
One person sees something and gives an account. Another person sees the same thing and gives an account. The eyewitness testimony is thus reproduced.

Either you are being intentionally dishonest, or you have abysmal reading comprehension.
BWS said:
Eye witness testimony is not a reproducible experiment..

Two people witnessing an event is not reproducing the event. Thus, it is not reproducing the experiment.

Try again.

Oh I see. So now you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Is that what you are saying, How are the events in Genesis to be confirmed then?
You are, once again, desperately throwing out red herrings, knowing you cannot refute the argument that was presented. Trolling and intellectual dishonesty, your usual offerings.
 
Oh I see. So now you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Is that what you are saying? How are the events in Genesis to be confirmed then?

Also lying about supposed warnings I have received is a violation of Sci Forum rules. I suggest you don't do that.

If you wish, I can post what James R posted in the back room in public - as you said, lying about your warnings is a violation...

The event of the eyewitnesses seeing the event is reproduced. EOS.

It is not reproducing the experiment (or in your case, the event) which is what BWS said. I suggest you go back to grade school if your reading comprehension is actually that poor.
 
You are, once again, desperately throwing out red herrings, knowing you cannot refute the argument that was presented. Trolling and intellectual dishonesty, your usual offerings.

Evasion from answering simple question? That's typical for you.
 
Evasion from answering simple question? That's typical for you.

Perhaps if your question was relevant, I would answer it ;)
As it is, it is a red herring. You are just throwing a hissy fit because you cannot refute what was said and were caught being dishonest... and it is actually kind of sad to witness.
 
If you wish, I can post what James R posted in the back room in public - as you said, lying about your warnings is a violation...

Go ahead and post where he warned me about claiming things people believe that they do not believe. I'll wait.
 
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